Good equipment but not a clue

[17629v2]

I'm sure he didn't buy those expensive units in the supermarket and the dealer might have remembered to mention balanced ICs.

 

He then mentioned he's using run of the mill cables.

 

OK. But is it really that big of a deal? Lets say we didn't split the hair with as much surgical precision as we should have, and mistakenly recommended some reasonably priced cables to get started with. I'm willing to bet the OP will find it in his heart to forgive us. Maybe you can too.

 

But since you brought it up, maybe the OP didn't use a dealer. I don't know any Ayre dealer that would let a customer walk out of a store not knowing how to connect 10k of electronics he just bought. In fact, every dealer I know would deliver and install the components, especially if they bought speakers too.

[witchdoctor]

The components aren't an issue. As Semente pointed out. He did not ask about cables. Some people told him that was a benefit. Run of the mill cables do what cables need to do. Anyone who thinks spending money on higher end cables benefited the sound has benefited from the psychology of said cables.

 

I definitely suggest using balanced when it is available. Monoprice balanced cables are fine for a low cost. Livewire is available at most Guitar Centers for a reasonable cost and lifetime warranty. Blue Jeans cables are not bad. More than that isn't benefiting sound quality.

 

OP, this is terrible advice. Please ignore someone telling you not to find out for yourself. Blue Jean cables are NOT good, and as far as being bad you can audition them and find out for yourself. Monoprice is really bad, check out the quality in the video below.

I have auditioned both the Signal Cables and the Mapleshade and have found the reviews I posted to be both accurate and truthful. You can read the reviews, get a risk free audition and make up your own mind. To have to suffer with subpar performance from components you paid good money for because you made a rookie mistake using junk (look at the monoprice video, that cable is junk) is what I would call an audio lobotomy, just terrible. Don't believe me, a review, or anyone ALWAYS decide after an audition in your system.

 

[17629v2]

OP, this is terrible advice. Please ignore someone telling you not to find out for yourself. Blue Jean cables are NOT good, and as far as being bad you can audition them and find out for yourself. Monoprice is really bad, check out the quality.

 

I'm usually not mean spirited, but a couple of days ago you took it upon yourself to attack my post even after I clearly explained my position more than once, to stick up for this clown who now turns on you too. I can't wait to see how inclined you are to take his next "challenge".

[witchdoctor]

You are indeed correct a virus is software related. In this case software encased in wetware. Webroot won't do a thing for your problems. His run of the mill cables are fine. He has a way to connect his gear see. Asking him to buy others at or above some price point is a gross waste of resources. Even the power conditioning gear may be of little help depending upon the particulars.

 

esldude, please read my thread on power found here on CA to learn more about the need for good, clean POWER!

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/power%3D-third-element-great-system-29992/

[esldude]

You don't know your ass from your elbow. Its just that simple.

 

Now someone go mark my post red and report it like some cry baby little kid.

 

Yeah, always remember. If a dealer like this guy, disagrees with scientists and engineers on how something works, it is the dealer you should trust. He obviously has your best interest (and his) at heart.

 

Sorry, if you don't like the truth, but it is the truth nonetheless. I would offer to let v2 shows us his hearing ability by recording some different cables for him. I already know he will whine and say he doesn't trust me, and he already knows so there is no point. What about it v2, you willing to show us what you can hear in wires?

[esldude]

OP, this is terrible advice. Please ignore someone telling you not to find out for yourself. Blue Jean cables are NOT good, and as far as being bad you can audition them and find out for yourself. Monoprice is really bad, check out the quality in the video below.

I have auditioned both the Signal Cables and the Mapleshade and have found the reviews I posted to be both accurate and truthful. You can read the reviews, get a risk free audition and make up your own mind. To have to suffer with subpar performance from components you paid good money for because you made a rookie mistake using junk (look at the monoprice video, that cable is junk) is what I would call an audio lobotomy, just terrible. Don't believe me, a review, or anyone ALWAYS decide after an audition in your system.

 

 

That guy got a bad set. The cables aren't junk. The workmanship on his set is marginal to poor. I have a dozen of their xlr cables. None are like that, and none have shorted out. I would agree canare and mogami made by BJC are better. I have recommended these to several other people and out of all those no one ever was sent a cable with problems. In home audio where the cable mostly gets plugged in and left for long periods of time, nothing wrong with Monoprice XLR. So color me unsurprised that cables costing 5 times as much have better construction. Unless damaged they will both sound the same.

 

You simply are being told by those who drank the kool aide that you cannot get good sound without spending excessive amounts of money on boutique cables. It is a big myth.

[esldude]

esldude, please read my thread on power found here on CA to learn more about the need for good, clean POWER!

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/power%3D-third-element-great-system-29992/

 

 

Sorry, allergic to snake oil.

[17629v2]

Yeah, always remember. If a dealer like this guy, disagrees with scientists and engineers on how something works, it is the dealer you should trust. He obviously has your best interest (and his) at heart.

 

Sorry, if you don't like the truth, but it is the truth nonetheless. I would offer to let v2 shows us his hearing ability by recording some different cables for him. I already know he will whine and say he doesn't trust me, and he already knows so there is no point. What about it v2, you willing to show us what you can hear in wires?

 

You're no scientist. But Charles Hanson from Ayre is. For conformation, all I have to do is walk into my listening room. Where's your line of electronics? All you do is talk, talk, talk. Show me something you can do besides talk. I won't hold my breath.

[wwaldmanfan]

We are all adults here. I find it distasteful when threads devolve into mean-spirited name-calling. Some folks hear a marked difference between cheap generic cables and ultra-expensive boutique cables. Some do not think these expensive products justify their price-point. This is, and always will a controversial subject.

 

There are vendors, like The Cable Company, in New Hope, Pennsylvania who will lend you an assortment of high-end cables for a small deposit, so that you can demo them in your own home on your own system. This is a good policy, and one that audiophiles should take advantage of, if they have deep pockets and money to spend.

 

My own personal experience with cables is that I have heard differences between USB cable and analog interconnects, not so much with speaker cables and power cables of adequate gauge on my system. However, more expensive cables are not necessarily the best sounding. It is up to the end-users to do their own testing. With some hobbies, spending money is the price of an education.

[esldude]

I won't hold my breath.

 

Yes we know. We can hope, but we know you won't.

[witchdoctor]

Sorry, allergic to snake oil.

 

Are you also allergic to posting etiquette? In response to the OP's request I made a suggestion based on cables I actually auditioned and chose one with a low entry price point and one that is moderate. Then I provided third party reviews to add additional information and that validated my own experience. Mu actual recommendation was to conduct a "risk free" audition before making any purchases. The OP then thanks me and we moved on.

 

In the future please use links to help establish any claims you make and always invite the person to judge for themselves. He is not a rat and you are not the Pied Piper, capiche?

[esldude]

 

In the future please use links to help establish any claims you make and always invite the person to judge for themselves. He is not a rat and you are not the Pied Piper, capiche?

 

This isn't your forum, and you aren't making the rules. The forum belongs to Chris.

 

That you make claims shown to be wrong even if believed by many still doesn't make them right.

 

I actually own and have used the cables I suggested as well. I have used more expensive cables. Once you understand the basics no reviews by third parties have any validity.

[witchdoctor]

This isn't your forum, and you aren't making the rules. The forum belongs to Chris.

 

That you make claims shown to be wrong even if believed by many still doesn't make them right.

 

I actually own and have used the cables I suggested as well. I have used more expensive cables. Once you understand the basics no reviews by third parties have any validity.

 

When I claimed Mapleshade and Signal were good I provided a link. When I claimed Monoprice was junk I provided a link.

I think you should do the same if you expect anyone to believe you. Can you please post a link to invalidate any of my claims based on a neutral third party? You opinions are just not valid but extremely emotional.

[Jud]

When I claimed Mapleshade and Signal were good I provided a link. When I claimed Monoprice was junk I provided a link.

I think you should do the same if you expect anyone to believe you. Can you please post a link to invalidate any of my claims based on a neutral third party? You opinions are just not valid but extremely emotional.

 

While not agreeing with Dennis for a couple of reasons, his opinions on this are the opposite of emotional. He's basing what he says on two things:

 

- Blind testing, including his own, failed to reveal differences (Dennis has purchased expensive cables, so this was not necessarily what he wanted to find).

 

- So far as he has been able to determine, electrical science and engineering don't appear to reveal reasons for cables to have different sonic qualities beyond resistance, inductance and capacitance.

[witchdoctor]

While not agreeing with Dennis for a couple of reasons, his opinions on this are the opposite of emotional. He's basing what he says on two things:

 

- Blind testing, including his own, failed to reveal differences (Dennis has purchased expensive cables, so this was not necessarily what he wanted to find).

 

- So far as he has been able to determine, electrical science and engineering don't appear to reveal reasons for cables to have different sonic qualities beyond resistance, inductance and capacitance.

 

Now Jud, Dennis got himself into this mess although I think you can teach him a thing or two about both etiquette and cables as I know you own a fine set of mapleshade cables as we can see in your signature line.

[esldude]

When I claimed Mapleshade and Signal were good I provided a link. When I claimed Monoprice was junk I provided a link.

I think you should do the same if you expect anyone to believe you. Can you please post a link to invalidate any of my claims based on a neutral third party? You opinions are just not valid but extremely emotional.

 

 

I could start with Maxwell. I'll settle for Bruno Putzeys.

 

Cable Distortion and Dielectric Biasing Debunked | Audioholics

 

I'll also quote his summation of cables from another posting he made:

 

I should point out that whenever I could prove the audibility of "cable sonics" beyond mere anecdotal evidence (i.e. whenever I could repeat them blind), the problem invariably turned out to be rather prosaic. I recall making a few less than rigourous remarks about the sound of certain cables in the past but either they didn't subsequently hold up in a serious listening test or some fairly obvious problem was discovered.

Quote:

 

(and I can't remember, but you might've even said the effects of cables couldn't be measured)

 

I think you're referring to a bunch of distortion measurements I've published once. What I was trying to show there is that the "micro-distortion" claim was falsifiable. It predicted distortion that a single-tone THD test would readily elicit. Failing that, the micro-distortion claim was falsified. Indeed it was unmeasurable, for the simple reason that it wasn't there.

 

Getting an analogue audio signal from one end of a cable to another is fairly simple:

1. Use balanced signalling. That is, use two signal conductors driven by equal impedances on the source end, and use a high-CMRR input with equal impedances on the inputs. Voltage symmetry is a nonissue at audio frequencies.

2. Make no attempt at impedance-matching the input and output. Make the drive impedance as low as you sensibly can. Make the input impedance as high as you sensibly can, particularly the common-mode impedance.

3. Use properly shielded cable. Tie the shield (pin 1) directly to the chassis (AES48)

 

Whenever a cable influences sound audibly, at least one of these three rules has been broken. Consumer audio gear, especially high-end stuff, tends to throw all three out of the window. I once got an email from someone who claimed my amplifiers were humming, while the only thing he had done was pop in a more expensive "interconnect". He was using a passive attenuator (10k impedance) and an unbalanced, UNSHIELDED cable by a joint called Nordost. Kimber makes similar monstrosities. Luckily, he accepted my explanation and returned the cable.

 

So, I'm not going to get drawn into endorsing particular makes of cable. Just stick to proper design practice and stay away from boutique cable brands. They'll misdesign the thing until they hear a difference and call that "better".

[esldude]

When I claimed Mapleshade and Signal were good I provided a link. When I claimed Monoprice was junk I provided a link.

I think you should do the same if you expect anyone to believe you. Can you please post a link to invalidate any of my claims based on a neutral third party? You opinions are just not valid but extremely emotional.

 

Just because they were in the same place as the other link:

 

Debunking the Myth of Speaker Cable Resonance | Audioholics

 

Dielectric Absorption in Cables Debunked | Audioholics

 

Skin Effect Interview with Dr. Howard Johnson | Audioholics

 

 

Plus:

 

Cables, Interconnects and Other Stuff - The Truth

 

And you could read this massive years long thread about the issue:

 

Interconnect cables! Lies and myths! - diyAudio

 

Or even the merely large thread from here on CA some 4 years ago:

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/great-cable-and-interconnect-swindle-etiology-12488/

 

 

Roger Russell was an EE heading the McIntosh Lab research department at one time. You can read his research into cables and what his opinions are.

 

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

[sandyk]

Getting an analogue audio signal from one end of a cable to another is fairly simple:

1. Use balanced signalling. That is, use two signal conductors driven by equal impedances on the source end, and use a high-CMRR input with equal impedances on the inputs. Voltage symmetry is a nonissue at audio frequencies.

 

That shouldn't be necessary with typical consumer grade equipment using short interconnects, and additional circuitry in the shape of additional semiconductor devices etc. and more PSU current demands is not always a real benefit. You also need to ensure that both halves have virtually identical symmetry. Additional cost is also another factor.

[esldude]

That shouldn't be necessary with typical consumer grade equipment using short interconnects, and additional circuitry in the shape of additional semiconductor devices etc. and more PSU current demands is not always a real benefit. You also need to ensure that both halves have virtually identical symmetry. Additional cost is also another factor.

 

I agree with you Alex. But if that type of connection is used to good benefit, it will cost less than what are now days called modest cables done with RCA connections to actually make the device well designed and balanced.

[witchdoctor]

I could start with Maxwell. I'll settle for Bruno Putzeys.

 

Cable Distortion and Dielectric Biasing Debunked | Audioholics

 

I'll also quote his summation of cables from another posting he made:

 

I should point out that whenever I could prove the audibility of "cable sonics" beyond mere anecdotal evidence (i.e. whenever I could repeat them blind), the problem invariably turned out to be rather prosaic. I recall making a few less than rigourous remarks about the sound of certain cables in the past but either they didn't subsequently hold up in a serious listening test or some fairly obvious problem was discovered.

Quote:

 

(and I can't remember, but you might've even said the effects of cables couldn't be measured)

 

I think you're referring to a bunch of distortion measurements I've published once. What I was trying to show there is that the "micro-distortion" claim was falsifiable. It predicted distortion that a single-tone THD test would readily elicit. Failing that, the micro-distortion claim was falsified. Indeed it was unmeasurable, for the simple reason that it wasn't there.

 

Getting an analogue audio signal from one end of a cable to another is fairly simple:

1. Use balanced signalling. That is, use two signal conductors driven by equal impedances on the source end, and use a high-CMRR input with equal impedances on the inputs. Voltage symmetry is a nonissue at audio frequencies.

2. Make no attempt at impedance-matching the input and output. Make the drive impedance as low as you sensibly can. Make the input impedance as high as you sensibly can, particularly the common-mode impedance.

3. Use properly shielded cable. Tie the shield (pin 1) directly to the chassis (AES48)

 

Whenever a cable influences sound audibly, at least one of these three rules has been broken. Consumer audio gear, especially high-end stuff, tends to throw all three out of the window. I once got an email from someone who claimed my amplifiers were humming, while the only thing he had done was pop in a more expensive "interconnect". He was using a passive attenuator (10k impedance) and an unbalanced, UNSHIELDED cable by a joint called Nordost. Kimber makes similar monstrosities. Luckily, he accepted my explanation and returned the cable.

 

So, I'm not going to get drawn into endorsing particular makes of cable. Just stick to proper design practice and stay away from boutique cable brands. They'll misdesign the thing until they hear a difference and call that "better".

 

Well I see you improved your etiquette after you derailed this thread.

I have to give your post a mark of incomplete. This is general information.

Let me give you an example.

I claim Monoprice cables are junk. You saw my video and even though you saw they were junk you still don't believe it.

Here is another opinion that they are made from copper clad aluminum although they claim copper.

Monoprice speaker wire really copper clad aluminum? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

 

Now if you claim that Monoprice cable is good all we need is a link, not a bunch of gneral information that may or may not relate to monoprice, or signal cable, or whatever.

let me give you another example. I claim Signal Cables magic power cords provide an excellent bang for the buck. You should read the review as i am sure you can relate to the authors experience. Here is a link:

signalcable

 

If I posted a link about all power cords it is good general information but doesn't really support my claim, see?

[Jud]

Now Jud, Dennis got himself into this mess although I think you can teach him a thing or two about both etiquette and cables as I know you own a fine set of mapleshade cables as we can see in your signature line.

 

You gave the OP your best advice about cables and Dennis did the same. I think we tend to look more for what we imagine is lack of etiquette in posts we disagree with. I try not to confuse the two (simple disagreement and lack of politeness).

 

As far as giving him advice on cables, I tend to consider chances of success before giving people advice. I also can't be entirely sure I'm right and he's wrong.

[esldude]

Well I see you improved your etiquette after you derailed this thread.

I have to give your post a mark of incomplete. This is general information.

Let me give you an example.

I claim Monoprice cables are junk. You saw my video and even though you saw they were junk you still don't believe it.

Here is another opinion that they are made from copper clad aluminum although they claim copper.

Monoprice speaker wire really copper clad aluminum? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

 

Now if you claim that Monoprice cable is good all we need is a link, not a bunch of gneral information that may or may not relate to monoprice, or signal cable, or whatever.

let me give you another example. I claim Signal Cables magic power cords provide an excellent bang for the buck. Here is a link:

signalcable

 

If I posted a link about all power cords it is good general information but doesn't really support my claim, see?

 

I was talking about and you had a video for Monoprice XLR. I own it, it is not aluminium. It is not junk. Those I have feature adequate workmanship. You see several comments to the video saying it is a non-issue requiring a bit of soldering if you get a bad set. Which out of maybe 3 dozen sets hasn't happened yet. Now GLS, those have a poor record for similar to Monoprice XLRs pricing with many poor connections and minimal(sub-minimal?) shielding. If you want better construction you may need to pay a $1 to $1.50 per foot rather than 40 or 50 cents per foot. When the connections are good both will sound the same. I could tell you more about differences that are real, but you aren't listening.

 

Your link to the speaker cable (which I haven't used) is one claiming copper coating followed by poster after poster after poster saying they have the same model cable which is copper all the way thru. A bad batch from a supplier perhaps. And Monoprice refunded all costs to let the guy return the cable.

 

The general links are because I am not saying get Monoprice it is the best. I am saying cable is cable for the most part. Monoprice has some quite inexpensive cable which is fine. As do Blue Jeans Cable as do Livewire and do others. So the general links are that they apply to cable. That is okay if you don't get that part.

 

PS-if you want to convince me, don't waste time with Positive Feedback links.

[witchdoctor]

You gave the OP your best advice about cables and Dennis did the same. I think we tend to look more for what we imagine is lack of etiquette in posts we disagree with. I try not to confuse the two (simple disagreement and lack of politeness).

 

As far as giving him advice on cables, I tend to consider chances of success before giving people advice. I also can't be entirely sure I'm right and he's wrong.

 

Now Jud, while I appreciate your loyalty to your BFF my advice was to let the OP take a risk free audition and decide for himself. Dennis's advice was basically don't bother because it is all snake oil. That is audio lobotomy at it's worse.

"Don't audition and decide for yourself just listen to me because i know best!"

You said it yourself, none can be entirely sure who is right or wrong. dennis made it sound like he can, no need to decide for yourself. That is the bad advice, not the cables he suggested (although those Monoprice cables are pretty shoddy)

[esldude]

.

 

As far as giving him advice on cables, I tend to consider chances of success before giving people advice.

 

Well the above is good advice which I don't always follow. Here at CA in regards to cables, the chances are small for success of the advice I have to give. Maybe I should spend more time at DIY audio, and pro sound forums.

[witchdoctor]

I was talking about and you had a video for Monoprice XLR. I own it, it is not aluminium. It is not junk. Those I have feature adequate workmanship. You see several comments to the video saying it is a non-issue requiring a bit of soldering if you get a bad set. Which out of maybe 3 dozen sets hasn't happened yet. Now GLS, those have a poor record for similar to Monoprice XLRs pricing with many poor connections and minimal(sub-minimal?) shielding. If you want better construction you may need to pay a $1 to $1.50 per foot rather than 40 or 50 cents per foot. When the connections are good both will sound the same. I could tell you more about differences that are real, but you aren't listening.

 

Your link to the speaker cable (which I haven't used) is one claiming copper coating followed by poster after poster after poster saying they have the same model cable which is copper all the way thru. A bad batch from a supplier perhaps. And Monoprice refunded all costs to let the guy return the cable.

 

The general links are because I am not saying get Monoprice it is the best. I am saying cable is cable for the most part. Monoprice has some quite inexpensive cable which is fine. As do Blue Jeans Cable as do Livewire and do others. So the general links are that they apply to cable. That is okay if you don't get that part.

 

PS-if you want to convince me, don't waste time with Positive Feedback links.

 

OP, notice how all his claims relate to his personal experience and opinions? Still not one link to support his cable recommendation? Sad.