New Amarra 4

[foodfiend]

Still struggling with Amarra 4 and loading my music library of about 100k songs. Library management really sucks, even if it sounds good.

[foodfiend]

On 23/04/2017 at 2:21 AM, DancingSea said:

 

Given the library management offerings of all the 3rd party players, it apparently is very very difficult to create an iTunes level manager.  Only Roon seems to have accomplished it, at a $500 price tag.  We get iTunes and its deep pocket development budget for free because its a trojan horse store.

 

Thus your Ferrari/ scooter analogy is unfair.  The 3rd party players simply don't have the R&D budgets to do better than they are doing. 

 

One nice thing about A4 vs other incarnations, is that its been very stable.  The only weird thing is infrequently it will give a loud, brief static burst through my speakers when moving between tracks.

I am not too sure how much iTunes library management has changed, but it was originally SoundJam MP, before being acquired by Apple. SoundJam MP wasn't backed by a company with limitless resources, so I would hazard a guess that 3rd party developers should be able to attain a similar level of library management without integrating a store (an easier integration).

[foodfiend]

10 hours ago, DancingSea said:

 

If that were all true, then the 3rd party management systems would be much better than they are.  They aren't imbeciles, the know the library management is not where it should be, they keep trying with every new version to improve, but with only limited success.  Its hard for me to believe the 3rd party library management systems are so limited simply because the developers haven't bothered.

 

My suspicion is that it lies in patents and cross-licensing. Frankly, I haven't noticed if Apple has a significant IP portfolio on library management connected with what we are looking for. What I know that they hold is related to syncing the media between mobile device and computer, and on their store integration. Surely these are not needed for audiophile playback and organization of music libraries.

 

I did remember using another similar program to SoundJam MP during the early days. I wonder what happened to that software company though.

[foodfiend]

I think we have to take one step back and understand the backgrounds of the respective developers, considering that most of these are small outfits (unlike Apple and iTunes). The likes of John Reichbach (Amarra), Tim Murison (BitPerfect), Rob Robinson (Pure Music) and Damien Plisson (Audirvana) have long approached software from the audio side of things, rather than that of library management.

 

The people behind Roon are the very ones behind the Sooloos, and approached system building more from the angle of integration and UI. Similar can be said about Foobar2000, SoundJam MP and even Music Match Jukebox.

 

So why have the likes of Amarra, Pure Music or Audirvana just employ someone with the coding expertise from the integration and UI side? I think that integration is not so easy, since the integration/UI side will want to link different bits and bobs together, whereas the music replay side will want as little of it as possible (to maintain a clean signal).

 

Not many consumers, they surmise, are willing to pay a premium for a good-sounding music player to have great UI and integration (media management, etc.) beyond what they can offer. As it is, the audiophile music player market is already pretty fragmented (although many players have become quiet - Stephen Booth's Decibel, Audiofile Engineering's Fidelia, to name two), and you can choose to go very high-end (and get just a few customers), or choose the mass-market route. Most have gone the mass-market, and even have "consumer" versions of their software to boost revenues.

 

Perhaps we are all crying out for better library management, but unless they know they are going to take away significant market share from their competitors, I think that it is unlikely that there will be a significant advance in that direction, unless one company takes the risk and causes the rest to follow suit. I still think that there is an alternative - crowd funding, anyone?

[foodfiend]

4 hours ago, ddalmas said:

Ah,just to end the discussion  and to be more precise ,i'd like to point this :i am only asking to John Reichbach of Amarra Sonic Studio to do only a litlle effort to come towards the simple needs of his A4 users , and to implement even a simple files management with the possibility for the user to choose how.... and this is not so difficult i know and i firmly declare ! John Reichbach knew very well since the release of A4 that it is in difficult to mange great libraries! i wonder how he could release A4 with all that problems and pretend to be payed by stupid like me!! this is very annoying i say! if he knew he only had to keep A3 possibilities and the work was done! it takes how much more time to do it Mr John Reichbach!!?? we were entusihast user and now we aren't anymore! do you consider it so nice Mr John? So wake up and correct your program faults quickly

Firstly, developing a commercial piece of software is not an easy task, especially for a small team of software engineers. Remember that they are a business, and not someone's hobby. They need to pay rent, taxes, as well as wages for any other staff members, amongst others.

 

Talking about bugs in software at commercial release, hell, even Microsoft and Apple have done so (and these are the big boys). Did they refund any money for it? Or did they just do updates and patches? Sonic Studio probably surmises that the primary concern of those who pay for their software is the sound quality, and that is where they focus on, and have delivered a good product.

 

Yes, I am also not a fan of their current library management. However, most of these software players started by piggy-backing on the iTunes library system (perhaps a convenient solution in the beginning), until they found that coupling their programs with iTunes also brought with it their problems. Then came the effort to decouple their software from iTunes. If this decoupling were basic and easy, I think the solution would have been developed much quicker. Even Audirvana took some time to untie itself! Anyway, Sonic Studio and John Reichbach have been trying to correct the problems, and has indeed released a few patches since the first version of Amarra 4. It might be far from perfect, but you have to give them credit for making an effort.

 

Remember that you were not strong-armed into buying Amarra 4, and they do allow the public to trial the software before buying. If you did not trial the software before paying for it, then you only have yourself to blame, for if you do not like it, you can always opt not to buy the software.

[foodfiend]

Totally agree with DancingSea about what he said! Like I have mentioned before, none of us were strong-armed into buying this piece of software, and we have every right to move away to another product.

 

I am sure Sonic Studio for all their failings, is still trying to make a product that as many people will like. They are in the business to make money (sell as many licenses as possible), rather than dish out agony (even if it seems the other way). If what they do is so terrible that no one buys their software, they would have to retire Amarra. This is a fact of business. The fact that it still exists, and is still being developed, means that Sonic Studio still believes that there is still money to be made. By the same token, I am sure they do look at major audiophile forums like CA to gauge what the buying public think.

 

Yes, all energy now is being focused on Luxe (for good or ill - only time will tell). I suspect that the problems with library management in A4 are also too major that it is not going to be a minor patch that will solve it. Rather, I believe that Sonic Studio would have to do a significant rework on this part of the software before it is actually workable.

 

So, if library management is so important to you, I would suggest (for your personal mental health), to move to another product, at least in the interim. Otherwise, like DancingSea says, take it as an idiosyncrasy of the software, accept it, and keep enjoying the music. I have also found that position, and am still trying to load my entire library of music to A4. Yes, I am upset that this process is fraught with difficulty, but I still enjoy and value the playback of music. That is why I keep coming back to A4 (and yes, I also have A+, but A4 is the software I choose to use).

[foodfiend]

I have had similar problems with A4 reading my iTunes database. Hell, it even crashes when I try to get it to Scan for Music on my HDD that contains all the music! Guess that is because I have 100k + tracks in my collection, plus they are in various languages including Asian languages.

 

I find A4 very temperamental, since it can crash while "scanning and saving tracks for 5 artistes (I use the iTunes filing of Artiste/Album/Tracks)", but can be okay with "scanning and saving" each individually. Sometimes, it is crashes when I "scan and save" for one artiste, but is okay if I go "scan and save" album by album! I totally do not understand the reason for these crashes, but I am soldiering on. Am up to 97k + tracks, 6.7k + albums and 1.3k + artistes at the moment. Progress means that I hope to finally get my entire library on to A4, even if it means a bit at a time. So, when it comes to frustration, I do feel you.

[foodfiend]

4 minutes ago, copy_of_a said:

I don't get how people justify the total lack of anything an audiophile player should provide nowadays.

That is where personal preference and UX is so subjective. To someone, a bare-bones software with rudimentary library management that sounds good trumps another with more features but sounds less engaging. Others are ready to let the sound slip a bit for better library management or another feature.

 

In a sense, the developers are trying a balance that they feel defines how music replay is best done. The likes of Sonic Studios and Audiofile Engineering have a background in mastering and recording, and that may direct their focus in a different angle. Not everyone may be a fan of this, and that is fine by them.

[foodfiend]

26 minutes ago, ddalmas said:

hi people....i was a recording studio owner too(48 analog tracks at the times that means 2 24 try recorders linked together and Amek, Trident,Neve mixing consoles ,not a funny studio!It was there that i learned ergonomic ,easy to use and simplicity to avoid to swim in a pool full of mess! So there is no excuse for Sonic Studio even if they were studio oriented!!indeed!

I sense your antagonism against Sonic Studio, whatever the product! That said, I gather that many professional users of Sonic Studio products have this same love-hate relationship with Sound Blade, similar to many of our relationships with Amarra!

[foodfiend]

1 hour ago, DancingSea said:

I also love how Fidelia looks with those giant meters pulsing across the screen... but it does crash and the developers seem to have given up on it long ago..... 

I also like Fidelia quite a bit, and am sad to see that Audiofile Engineering more or less abandon it. Then again, I am not surprised that they failed to gain a foothold in the market, being quite a late entrant. By then, Audirvana, Amarra and Pure Music had cornered the market on the Mac.

[foodfiend]

2 hours ago, copy_of_a said:

I use more than one software. I mostly use Audirvana as it provides an extensive feature set and also sounds really excellent. Sometimes I use HQ Player to play a certain album picked out (upsampled to DSD128). Since I love its colored sound I would use Amarra 4 in a similar way... if it would only provide the most basic technical features an audiophile player should offer. Unfortunately Amarra does not...

Well, like I said before, user experience and preferences are pretty subjective. Some of us like to tweak systems (and will value different controls/features), while others prefer something that sounds musical "out-of-the-box". There is no right or wrong, and everyone has every right to buy or not buy a product.

[foodfiend]

2 hours ago, ddalmas said:

hi dancing sea ...is not that you are part of the SS staff?your defense os always beyond the evidence of the faults clearly demonstrated by everyone else!! is your love for Amarra so strong and blind?

Come on, ddalmas! Dancing Sea also admits that the product is not up to par when it comes to library management, but has simply found his zen in his method of replay. I do not find it fair for you to assert that his opinions are strong and blind!

[foodfiend]

1 hour ago, DancingSea said:

While ditching library management is a step in the right direction, it still doesn't deal with the lack of programming skill.  Thus abandoning libraries combined with hiring someone like Damien would do the trick.

Don't you think there would be a clash of egos if Audirvana and Sonic Studios joined forces? I certainly believe so!

[foodfiend]

2 minutes ago, DancingSea said:

For sure, hence the phrase "like" Damien.  Someone who is more detailed in the programming, anyone.  Of course, why in the world would Damien join Sonic Studios when their problems translate into cold cash?  Amarra's misery is great marketing for him.  With Roon so expensive, HQP so user unfriendly, and Amarra often chasing windmills, Damien has a great niche carved out.  Amarra needs him, he certainly does not need Amarra!

 

I genuinely wish I liked the A+ sound, have tried many times to adapt with a variety of settings and plugins.  Sound quality aside, its a superior and versatile piece of software.

 

Amarra finally getting it right could be very damaging for Damien.  Fortunately for him, old habits appear hard to break.

I suspect that most of the current A4 users are still with the Amarra platform only because there is something inherently "organic" or "musical" about the playback engine. I doubt any of us are "extremely happy", since most of us have gripes with the bugs and UX. And like you have said, Sonic Studio is hardly likely to change its behavior (a leopard doesn't change its spots!). So it may be a steady attrition as more people get so irate and are unable to find their zen in Amarra. My suspicion is that John will not even accept any help from a more detailed programmer, even if someone with those qualities decided to join their team.

 

A+ also has its idiosyncrasies, so I wouldn't put their interface as perfect. But like you say, I am sure Damien is smiling to the bank...

 

As for Roon, remember that Sooloos always was a high-end niche product for the few who would pay for it. What makes you think they would ever deign to work on a more mass-market product?

 

Too bad so many others have fallen on the wayside. I do wish that Audiofile Engineering would resurrect Fidelia. It had a lot of promise and was really innovative in its day, izotope, plug-ins and all.

 

Or perhaps, they are each just carving out their own space and territory...

[foodfiend]

5 hours ago, ddalmas said:

Maybe ,after long thinking and wondering how, i have reached an acceptable compromise!!

Congratulations on reaching your zen with the idiot savant!

[foodfiend]

ddalmas: "idiot savant" is kind of related to the Dustin Hoffman character in the movie Rain Man. Not sure if you caught the movie. It is analogy, since Amarra does something very well (in the movie, Dustin Hoffman's character is a human calculator-autistic savant), but can be a real pain to live with (I am sure you understand this part).

[foodfiend]

5 minutes ago, ddalmas said:

thks ...rain man i saw ss translated in Italian  so some phrases have  not the same meaning as in the original version, this is the reason why i started to look at movies in original language ....but it is anyway very hard to capture all what is said in the deep and hidden meanings

now i understand that the compare is perfectly fitting...idiot savant ...yes this they are! what a pity

Oh! And I forgot to mention that you often have to interact with them on their own terms, no matter how uncomfortable it is for you (reference to their not responding to user feedback).

[foodfiend]

I know this does not apply to people who do not use the library management function on A4, but have you seen how much space it eats up on your HDD/SSD?

[foodfiend]

2 minutes ago, DancingSea said:

 

Where is the library management function located?  I looked in User--> Library --> Application Support --> Sonic Studios.  The Amara 4 stuff there only took up 2 kb. 

I am not too sure where they store it (haven't investigated), but since I only use my MacMini for music playback, and the music files are all on my external HDDs, it is obvious that A4 us using up my SSD space (boot drive and where A4 is installed) when I load more music in the library. This space reappears if I delete the library too.

[foodfiend]

12 minutes ago, DancingSea said:

Aha, I shall write The Ralph and report back.  I can say the Mac OSX, in a variety in incarnations, has been very spotty about accurately reporting HD space.  This is a known issue, one that I've gone around the bush on many times.  On my MacBook Pro, I've had OSX say I have 20 GB of space left.  So I moved my iPhoto library to an external HD (about 20 GB). One would expect OSX to now say I have 40 GB left.  It took a week for the reduction to appear.

Do let me know what Ralph says! I am quite sure that the reduction in available SSD space is due to A4, since it only changes when I make adjustment to the library. I have a 256 GB factory-installed SSD on my MacMini, and considering that I have absolutely no real data on my SSD, and no non-music-related programs/apps, I now have only half of my disk space left!

[foodfiend]

4 hours ago, DancingSea said:

As mentioned, I have little faith in Disk Utilities ability to accurately tell me how much space is left on my SSD drive - especially after things have been deleted.  That said, I did an experiment as I happen to have the A4 library cleared anyway.

 

Imported 3500 tracks (about 300 GB).  Disk Utility said my drive space was reduced by 500 MB.  Turns out its the art work which can be found here:

 

Mac - Macintosh HD/Users/{user name}/Library/Application Support/Sonic Studio/Amarra Artwork

 

When I checked the art work folder, it was exactly 533 MB.  The A4 manual says that the art work is not cleared when songs are cleared, thus can grow in size over time and its wise to periodically clear.

 

I think that may be your answer.  We'll see what Ralph says, but I believe the rest of the A4 library function is just pointers to the file locations, thus doesn't take up space.

Great work! I better try looking into that file! Thanks!

[foodfiend]

On 30/05/2017 at 0:25 PM, ddalmas said:

Yeah folks..... i greatly agree with you! A4 only offera a good sound and nothing more! All the rest is a real disaster!!!!dancing sea,who is clearly part of A4 staff ,can say what he wants but he surely can't chance reality!

ddalmas: I hope that everyone here maintains some civility, rather than to level unfounded remarks at other users. DancingSea is just another user here. Just because he talks about Amarra in a more positive light, does not make him a member of staff of Sonic Studio, nor makes him the enemy (he is the one who coined the description of "idiot savant" to describe Amarra 4 - which is very apt).

[foodfiend]

Yes, I think we Amarra 4 users here only put up with the software because of its inherent musicality and likeness to analogue playback. Otherwise, we would have given up on the poor library management, buggy software that crashes, yada-yada...

 

Meanwhile, we can support each other with any tricks that we may use to make A4 more palatable!

[foodfiend]

6 hours ago, Umetaro said:

Do you have the same problem?  From my own experiences with Amarra Symphony 3 and Amarra 4, I do not expect much from Amarra library management.  However, I really love the sound quality of Amarra and try to be constructive to make this high quality software better. 

I think most of us here are in the same position. We love the sound quality, but loathe many other bits, including the library management.

[foodfiend]

As DancingSea says, Sonic Studios make their own decision on whether they should devote time and effort in the development and debugging of the library management in Amarra. Evidently, they choose not to. I think it is related to the fact that library management has little to do with the rest of Sonic Studios' products, which are focused on sound quality.

 

Issues with the fragile builds of Amarra and library management woes will not go away (unless there is a change in management at Sonic Studios), so it is a question of whether we can live with the buggy software.

 

Meanwhile, the only way that we can voice our opinion is to sound it on forums like these, and possibly, support other software houses (if they can produce something you can live with). Many of us here find that Amarra provides a great product in terms of audio quality (and perhaps nothing else), and choose to find ways to live with it. I am sure many users have also chosen to ditch the software, and go to other providers like Audirvana.

 

Yes, I am always apprehensive when it comes to paying more money for Amarra. Hence, I am really wanting to watch the dust settle on Amarra Luxe before committing more $. Perhaps I should seriously look at setting up Roon!