Article: Holo Audio Spring Level 3 Kitsune Tuned Edition R2R DAC Review

[Superdad]

Since DSD obviously can't be processed through a R2R network, ...

Edit: Sorry, just read the notes on the product page. Looks like this thing just converts DSD to PCM. Lol.

 

Neither of those statements is true. My iPad battery is dying or I would give a fuller explanation. But you can reaseach it a bit more before jumping to conclusion about this design.

[GUTB]

Neither of those statements is true. My iPad battery is dying or I would give a fuller explanation. But you can reaseach it a bit more before jumping to conclusion about this design.

 

I'm sorry, but what conclusion am I jumping to? R2R ladders don't do 1-bit. Reading the engineer's comments on the Holo site, while somewhat tricky as English obviously isn't "Jeff"'s native language he seemed pretty clear that "native DSD" means DoP (lol) and that DSD is converted to PCM.

 

As far as the marketing blurb about 2 dual R2R boards, that's a lie because there is obviously only 1 in the images.

[sig8]

@sig8 and @ted_b I just checked my settings in HQP and I am able to select DSD512 as an option going through the SU-1. Unfortunately I do not have a DSD DAC until I take delivery of my Spring in about a month so I can't verify. I am using a PC running Server R2 Essentials in core mode as an NAA.

 

tboooe: I said no sound when I select 512, I do see 512 as an option but get no sound. So that explains it; I can choose 512 in HQP, because Holo Driver supports that, but since SU-1 is in the chain, signal does not pass that. When I select DSD256 everything works.

[GUTB]

To respond to comments made in the Vinnie Rossi forum: I wasn't lol'ing at anyone here, but at the bamboozle language used on the Spring's web page, i.e., "native DSD" actually referring to receiving DoP.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

[ted_b]

To respond to comments made in the Vinnie Rossi forum: I wasn't lol'ing at anyone here, but at the bamboozle language used on the Spring's web page, i.e., "native DSD" actually referring to receiving DoP.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

 

Wow, more misinformation from you again. It ain't DoP, it's direct DSD. HQPlayer (or others) set to direct SDM, not DoP. The only DoP I deal with for the Spring is due to driver incompatibilities, like with the SU-1 (where DoP is required).

 

BTW, DoP is not DSD-converted-to-PCM, it is truly native DSD. The vehicle is different, but there is no conversion.

[GUTB]

From the Spring's web page description:

 

"Dual R2R network for PCM, and Dual R2R network for DSD!"

 

But as we can see from the below image, there is only ONE "dual R2R network" present:

 

 

On the same page, the designer, Jeff Zhu had this to say:

 

"About DSD ‘native’, it is the way the USB transfer the stream. You know DOP, which is DSD Over PCM. DOP put the DSD into a PCM stream."

 

Zhu goes on to explain how DoP functions, followed by:

 

"So, now you should know, DSD native is just about the way it transfers the stream. Not describing the way it does digital to analog conversion."

 

Zhu cautions the reader after explaining how DoP works that "DSD native" is actually referring to the way the stream is being transferred, and specifically denies that it describes the way it does digital analog conversion. He continues:

 

"At the DAC stage, the DSD stream can convert to PCM then do the final digital to analog conversion."

 

And the secret of DSD over a R2R ladder is revealed: it coverts DSD to PCM! Lol!!!

 

After explaining why other DAC chips convert DSD to PCM (this information isn't totally correct, but let's let that slide), he continues:

 

"I just explain how Spring can do ‘discrete DSD conversion’."

 

I assume he means "native DSD" as "discrete DSD" is the first time this term is used, and also within context of the rest of the statement. And he did explain it; it converts DSD to PCM. He then offers the following examples:

 

"Actually it is like DCS and CHORD. If you looking to DCSand CHORD’s PCB, you will find ‘discrete DSD conversion’ is also usingswitches and precision resistors, like resistor ladder DACs. So, no matterit is ‘discrete DSD conversion’ or ‘discrete PCM conversion’, they all usethe same discrete devices. Just work in different architecture."

 

He doesn't mention or the context is lost in translation that, in fact, Chord (and I think DCS?) don't do native DSD but rather convert to PCM.

[gsquared]

Also on Spring's webpage:

 

"DSD is natively supported for the first time on this R2R Discrete DAC

 

HOLO Audio is the world’s first to support DSD natively on R2R DAC, so far the only one. This is not the DSD converted to PCM before digital-analog converter, but directly by the discrete components of the DSD digital to analog converter. Supported currently on MAC and Linux, and soon to be Windows/PC."

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

[firedog]

From the Spring's web page description:

 

"Dual R2R network for PCM, and Dual R2R network for DSD!"

 

But as we can see from the below image, there is only ONE "dual R2R network" present:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]32000[/ATTACH]

 

On the same page, the designer, Jeff Zhu had this to say:

 

"About DSD ‘native’, it is the way the USB transfer the stream. You know DOP, which is DSD Over PCM. DOP put the DSD into a PCM stream."

 

Zhu goes on to explain how DoP functions, followed by:

 

"So, now you should know, DSD native is just about the way it transfers the stream. Not describing the way it does digital to analog conversion."

 

Zhu cautions the reader after explaining how DoP works that "DSD native" is actually referring to the way the stream is being transferred, and specifically denies that it describes the way it does digital analog conversion. He continues:

 

"At the DAC stage, the DSD stream can convert to PCM then do the final digital to analog conversion."

 

And the secret of DSD over a R2R ladder is revealed: it coverts DSD to PCM! Lol!!!

 

After explaining why other DAC chips convert DSD to PCM (this information isn't totally correct, but let's let that slide), he continues:

 

"I just explain how Spring can do ‘discrete DSD conversion’."

 

I assume he means "native DSD" as "discrete DSD" is the first time this term is used, and also within context of the rest of the statement. And he did explain it; it converts DSD to PCM. He then offers the following examples:

 

"Actually it is like DCS and CHORD. If you looking to DCSand CHORD’s PCB, you will find ‘discrete DSD conversion’ is also usingswitches and precision resistors, like resistor ladder DACs. So, no matterit is ‘discrete DSD conversion’ or ‘discrete PCM conversion’, they all usethe same discrete devices. Just work in different architecture."

 

He doesn't mention or the context is lost in translation that, in fact, Chord (and I think DCS?) don't do native DSD but rather convert to PCM.

 

You really don't know what you are talking about.

[firedog]

Wow, more misinformation from you again. It ain't DoP, it's direct DSD. HQPlayer (or others) set to direct SDM, not DoP. The only DoP I deal with for the Spring is due to driver incompatibilities, like with the SU-1 (where DoP is required).

 

BTW, DoP is not DSD-converted-to-PCM, it is truly native DSD. The vehicle is different, but there is no conversion.

 

+1

[sig8]

I had a brief experimentation with Holo Spring and SU-1, and I think I was able to use two drivers (XMOS SU-1, and Holo Audio....) under HQP. I don't use HQP but that was just to experiment DSD256, 512, etc. on Spring. My question is has someone tried using both drivers, and if there is any difference. I see both drivers available under my 2-pc Jplay as well, KS: XMOS SU-1 and ASIO-Holo Audio...., haven't had much time to experiment much.

[tboooe]

I had a brief experimentation with Holo Spring and SU-1, and I think I was able to use two drivers (XMOS SU-1, and Holo Audio....) under HQP. I don't use HQP but that was just to experiment DSD256, 512, etc. on Spring. My question is has someone tried using both drivers, and if there is any difference. I see both drivers available under my 2-pc Jplay as well, KS: XMOS SU-1 and ASIO-Holo Audio...., haven't had much time to experiment much.

I messed around a bit with both. As for as I can tell here are the differences:

The SU driver will only allow DoP

The Holo driver has more features like buffer size adjustment

 

These features themselves may impact sound quality. I only use the Holo drivers.

[sig8]

And I think the point I was trying to make was that, you could use Holo Audio Driver, even when SU-1 is in the chain (between PC and DAC).

[tboooe]

And I think the point I was trying to make was that, you could use Holo Audio Driver, even when SU-1 is in the chain (between PC and DAC).

 

Sorry for not being clear. That was the point I was trying to make as well saying that I use the Holo driver only. I've been using the Holo driver with my SU-1 for months now. I dont even have my Spring dac yet!

[Superdad]

I've been using the Holo driver with my SU-1 for months now. I dont even have my Spring dac yet!

 

Oh if XMOS and Thesycon knew--someone would be in trouble...

[tboooe]

Oh if XMOS and Thesycon knew--someone would be in trouble...

LOL! But at least I am a paying Holo Spring DAC customer (just another month to wait!) so I am only kind of temporarily cheating.

[pbelo]

I have the Holo, the Rockna and the PD2 , I am reseller for all.

All R2R and for me I prefer in sequence , the Rockna Platinium Bal , the PD2 E 6000 and last the Holo.

PD2 includes a fine Preamp and balanced XLR inputs for HT operation.

Rockna has no analogue inputs but inc preamp,

For DSD512 use PC server with HQP and a new Network Server unit which upsamples files to 512 on the fly without PC , same quality and very much user friendly.

[Superdad]

To @ted_b or anyone else with both a Holo Spring and a microRendu:

 

I reread you review and you seemed to imply that--with an mR in NAA mode feeding the Spring's USB input--you are able to set HQ Player Desktop to direct ("native", non-DoP) DSD. Is that true?

 

I have a Spring Level 3 and a microRendu, my software (both OrbiterOS and HQP) is the latest, and while my NAA connection to the Spring is working and playing, I can only do SDM in DoP mode. I can choose "native" in HQP prefs, but then the main screen offers only PCM SRC and SDM (DSD) is not an option.

(Not that it should matter, but I am running HQP Desktop on OS X.)

 

I understand that if a DAC is either not using the default XMOS vendor ID or is using some other USB processor, that the maker needs to contact whoever it is that maintains the part of the Linux kernel which contains a registry of "native" DSD-capable DACs.

For some reason I thought this was already done for the Holo Spring.

 

My conclusion, until Ted or someone else says otherwise, is that either:

a) Anyone with the Spring/mR/HQP-NAA combo is also using the Singxer SU-1 and that somehow fools the mR and HQP into seeing the Spring as "native" capable.

OR

b) For some reason running HQP Desptop under Windows allows for "native" SDM.

 

Neither of the above make much sense. Maybe I am just doing something wrong.

 

Hoping someone can clear this up and/or help. My 4GHz i7 iMac should have enough processing power for at least HQP's -2s SDM variants at DSD512 rates, and I like to try that.

(But again, my query is not about this max rate; right now I can't send anything but PCM or DoP to the Spring via mR/NAA).

 

Thanks all!

 

--Alex C.

[ted_b]

Alex,

The Holo dac was certified direct DSD (native) several months ago (also see Sonicorbiter Native DSD thread). This means the HQP should be set to SDM none and the microRendu set to the latest update (assuming Jesus's update process is working now, or that it was shipped with the latest when you ordered it). It most definitely does SDM none (up to DSD512). The Singxer is a completely separate issue here. I'm talking direct USB connection from microRendu. Linux. And yes a Windows NAA also does direct, but that is not a microRendu issue.

 

Your HQP settings should look like this (copied as late as 10 min ago):

[Superdad]

Alex,

The Holo dac was certified direct DSD (native) several months ago (also see Sonicorbiter Native DSD thread). This means the HQP should be set to SDM none and the microRendu set to the latest update (assuming Jesus's update process is working now, or that it was shipped with the latest when you ordered it). It most definitely does SDM none (up to DSD512). The Singxer is a completely separate issue here. I'm talking direct USB connection from microRendu. Linux. And yes a Windows NAA also does direct, but that is not a microRendu issue.

 

Hi @ted_b:

 

Thanks for getting back so quickly. Despite my simplistic writing (for clarity about just what is going on), I have experience with HQP and am not missing the truly obvious.

 

Indeed I have been setting SDM Pack to none, etc. It is just that JUST with the Holo Spring, when SDM Pack is set to none, there then is no choice on the main HQP player page for SDM.

 

I just plugged in--to the microRendu--both my Geek Pulse and my iFi microiDSD, and confirmed just fine the functioning of direct (non-DoP) DSD with HQP NAA. Right up to the rate limits of both DACs. For those, the rightmost HQP dropdown shows option for SDM (DSD) just fine.

 

Since Sonore has been fussing around with OrbiterOS updates (I discovered, and then Jesus confirmed--and fixed yesterday--that they had temporarily broken NAA connection) I am wondering if something--such as the device registry list--got rolled back accidentally.

 

It is only with the Holo Spring that it does not work with "direct SDM"!

 

So I can only think of two things--either:

a) The kernel of the very latest OrbiterOS update (from yesterday) somehow dropped the Holo Spring's vendor certificate from the registry;

 

OR

 

b) My brand new Holo Spring Level 3 has different firmware or ID info (older or newer?)

 

The DAC identifies as follows:

xCORE USB Audio 2.0

Product ID: 20b1:3036

Vendor ID: 0x20b1

Version: 16.92

 

Can you check your Holo Spring firmware revision level?

 

I wish Sonore would allow users to see exact OrbiterOS rev numbers. We are all on 2.3 but there likely has been a half dozen variants of that so we can not compare. Anyone else with a Spring willing to blindly update their mR with yesterday's revision and then check to see if support of direct DSD goes away for their Spring DAC?

 

Thanks,

 

--Alex C.

[ted_b]

I set my HQP to do all DSD for now (just to show you) and here is the dac diagnostic while the dac does 44k to DSD512 SDM pack none.

 

DAC description: xCORE USB Audio 2.0 20b1:3036

 

Diagnostic information for this DAC

 

XMOS xCORE USB Audio 2.0 at usb-ci_hdrc.1-1.1, high speed : USB Audio

 

Playback:

Status: Running

Interface = 1

Altset = 3

Packet Size = 776

Momentary freq = 705619 Hz (0x58.33d0)

Feedback Format = 16.16

Interface 1

Altset 1

Format: S32_LE

Channels: 2

Endpoint: 1 OUT (ASYNC)

Rates: 44100, 48000, 88200, 96000, 176400, 192000, 352800, 384000, 705600, 768000

Data packet interval: 125 us

Interface 1

Altset 2

Format: S16_LE

Channels: 2

Endpoint: 1 OUT (ASYNC)

Rates: 44100, 48000, 88200, 96000, 176400, 192000, 352800, 384000, 705600, 768000

Data packet interval: 125 us

Interface 1

Altset 3

Format: SPECIAL DSD_U32_BE

Channels: 2

Endpoint: 1 OUT (ASYNC)

Rates: 44100, 48000, 88200, 96000, 176400, 192000, 352800, 384000, 705600, 768000

Data packet interval: 125 us

 

access: RW_INTERLEAVED

format: DSD_U32_BE

subformat: STD

channels: 2

rate: 705600 (705600/1)

period_size: 65536

buffer_size: 131072

 

Simple mixer control 'XMOS Clock Selector',0

Capabilities: pvolume pswitch

Playback channels: Front Left - Front Right

Limits: Playback 0 - 127

Mono:

Front Left: Playback 127 [100%] [0.00dB] [on]

Front Right: Playback 127 [100%] [0.00dB] [on]

Simple mixer control 'XMOS Clock Selector',1

Capabilities: pvolume pvolume-joined pswitch pswitch-joined

Playback channels: Mono

Limits: Playback 0 - 127

Mono: Playback 127 [100%] [0.00dB] [on]

[Superdad]

I set my HQP to do all DSD for now (just to show you) and here is the dac diagnostic while the dac does 44k to DSD512 SDM pack none.

 

Hi @ted_b:

 

I totally believe you Ted. But with my unit (and newest rev of OrbiterOS) I can not choose SDM on the player screen unless I set SDM Pack to DoP.

 

Here is my diagnostics screen--but of course just running PCM.

 

 

Do you have a tool to check the USB firmware rev of your Spring? Mine is 16.92. Easy to find by directly connecting the DAC to a Mac and going into System Report. I assume one can probe a USB device in Windows as well.

 

Are you willing to take a chance and re-update your OrbiterOS today to see if my problem duplicates for you? Unfortunately there is no "roll-back" capability with the mR, so if the new update breaks Spring native SDM support of you too, then we are both stuck until Sonore fixes it.

 

Ciao,

 

--Alex C.

[hols]

Hi Alex,

 

I have the same problem as you when I use the Linux Debian HQplayer connected to the microrendu i.e. no SDM shown in the right most column. But when I use a Windows10 HQplayer connected to the microrendu then the SDM will show up. I don't know what is the cause? But it seems that Miska has stated in the HQplayer thread that only Windows can play direct dsd512 and Linux and Mac OSX cannot.

[Superdad]

Hi Alex,

 

I have the same problem as you when I use the Linux Debian HQplayer connected to the microrendu i.e. no SDM shown in the right most column. But when I use a Windows10 HQplayer connected to the microrendu then the SDM will show up. I don't know what is the cause? But it seems that Miska has stated in the HQplayer thread that only Windows can play direct dsd512 and Linux and Mac OSX cannot.

 

Except that with the EXACT same set-up (OS X HQP Desktop>microRendu/NAA>DAC), both my Geek Pulse (also an XMOS USB input) and my iFi micro iDSD DO allow for direct, "native," SDM/DSD to be chosen on player screen.

 

Puzzled...

[barrows]

Hey ted,

 

Thanks for the review! The Holo DACs are very interesting products, and I am looking forward to what Jeff comes up with in the DSD only version-for those who prefer to play everything as DSD this approach could be quite affordable and the additional simplicity could even make for better sound quality.

[hols]

Except that with the EXACT same set-up (OS X HQP Desktop>microRendu/NAA>DAC), both my Geek Pulse (also an XMOS USB input) and my iFi micro iDSD DO allow for direct, "native," SDM/DSD to be chosen on player screen.

 

Puzzled...

 

Yes same here. when my same system is connected to a Sabre DAC the SDM on the right most column will appear too.