iFi's Pro iDSD (official) - NEW Firmware - MQA and more.

[jamesg11]

What is the “re-mastering” you refer to?

[asdf1000]

One more question @AMR/iFi audio ?

 

5. I tried the stack (Pro iDSD + Pro iCAN) and really liked it. Except one thing - the iCAN was LOUD at 9 o'clock on the volume knob on 0dB gain, using RCA interconnects. The Pro iDSD ALONE was absolutely fine with usable range over 10 o'clock on 0dB gain. I forgot to try and adjust the Pro iDSD's RCA outputs using variable output. It may have been on fixed HiFi or even fixed Pro levels - I didn't check.

 

Just to double check, the VARIABLE mode applies to both balanced and RCA outputs right? With HiFi Variable selected, what is the output voltage at 12 o'clock?

 

6. And the rear XLR and RCA outputs are ALWAYS in Class A mode right?

 

I'm close to pulling the trigger on both the Pro iDSD and Pro iCAN so I appreciate your patience with the above 6 questions.

 

Many thanks again

 

 

[asdf1000]

54 minutes ago, jamesg11 said:

What is the “re-mastering” you refer to?

 

It's all on the product site. There's a couple of Tech Notes there too that can probably explain better than me. Basically DSD up-sampling using their own FPGA code.

[applesnowleo]

On 8/7/2018 at 10:56 PM, Pocobear said:

The SoTM doesn't help with the Pro at all, IMS, I tried it and decided to keep it simple. It helps with my Holo Spring Green Lv 3 as it's not galvanically isolated like the Pro. 

 

Hello regarding the tX-USBultra I will not know because I do not have one and it could not give any advantage, but I was listening in the last days an SMS-200Ultra with an Sbooster power supply and the result is very positive, so positive that I acquired one.

 

It could be that my mac is a work machine and is always processing something more when listening to music and working, sometimes the processor works hard, not with the music but with the programs I use to work, so is not a machine that I use elusively for music, the SMS-200ultra serves the only propose of playing music nothing more and is not dependent of my computer processor for it, as the Mac only sends the command to my Roon installed on the NAS and it processes it to the SMS-200ultra.

 

In my case the final result is really impressive and even for the price of the SMS-200ultra I come to the conclusion that the investment is very justified.

[Pocobear]

54 minutes ago, applesnowleo said:

 

Hello regarding the tX-USBultra I will not know because I do not have one and it could not give any advantage, but I was listening in the last days an SMS-200Ultra with an Sbooster power supply and the result is very positive, so positive that I acquired one.

 

It could be that my mac is a work machine and is always processing something more when listening to music and working, sometimes the processor works hard, not with the music but with the programs I use to work, so is not a machine that I use elusively for music, the SMS-200ultra serves the only propose of playing music nothing more and is not dependent of my computer processor for it, as the Mac only sends the command to my Roon installed on the NAS and it processes it to the SMS-200ultra.

 

In my case the final result is really impressive and even for the price of the SMS-200ultra I come to the conclusion that the investment is very justified.

After several days of burn-in my iDSD Pro sounded so much better, so I routed the Ultra back into the circuit, based on your experience,  and it did make a nice difference in SQ.  My iMac is used only for music, Roon Server, so my cpu usage is very low, 3-8% all the time, so I probably had less problems than you to start with, with you using it for a work and music. I think with the Pro doing all the upsampling,  it doesn't use much CPU time at all now, that's got to be a good thing!

 

Good luck

[applesnowleo]

I didn't mention, my Roon core is installed on a Synology DS3615xs, and it works very well, I do not use upsampling, but tried for curiosity the upsample to DSD256 to the Pro iDSD and it works perfectly in my setup.

 

Using the iDSD Pro playing only by network cable is something to experiment by all owners of the iDSD Pro, the iDSD Pro produces a sound that is something to remember in this mode. The soundstage, separation and musicality is completely on another level that the one from a noise source with a poor USB Cable, and gives you a picture of the iDSD alone can acomplish.

[gordec]

41 minutes ago, applesnowleo said:

I didn't mention, my Roon core is installed on a Synology DS3615xs, and it works very well, I do not use upsampling, but tried for curiosity the upsample to DSD256 to the Pro iDSD and it works perfectly in my setup.

 

Using the iDSD Pro playing only by network cable is something to experiment by all owners of the iDSD Pro, the iDSD Pro produces a sound that is something to remember in this mode. The soundstage, separation and musicality is completely on another level that the one from a noise source with a poor USB Cable, and gives you a picture of the iDSD alone can acomplish.

 

What does your chain look like in this case? iDSD is not a Roon endpoint so you can't just tell Roon to play off iDSD as a network streamer right?

[applesnowleo]

10 minutes ago, gordec said:

 

What does your chain look like in this case? iDSD is not a Roon endpoint so you can't just tell Roon to play off iDSD as a network streamer right?

 

Hello, Roon Server is installed on the Synology DS3615xs and that takes care of the upsampling and all work Roon has to do, the endpoint is the SOTM SMS200 Ultra connected to the iFi iDSD Pro by USB, I am using an audio quest diamond USB between them.

 

At the moment the Mac Pro or even an iPad or iPhone are only controlers to play and choosing the music or albums to play. Roon support the direct network connection of the iDSD Pro but in a very limited form I only tried 44.1khz format, the DXD and other PCM High Resolution formats are downsampled by Roon.

 

With SOTM in the middle it supports all formats up to DSD256, I noticed that in the SOTM Page https://www.sotm-audio.com/sotmwp/english/eunhasu_-native-dsd-support/ they support the Micro and Nano line of iFi products with native DSD, strongly not the iDSD Pro. But works perfectly over DOP protocol. I will have to try this with my Micro iDSD Black to have share that Native is working or simply DOP.

[austinpop]

11 minutes ago, applesnowleo said:

 

Hello, Roon Server is installed on the Synology DS3615xs and that takes care of the upsampling and all work Roon has to do, the endpoint is the SOTM SMS200 Ultra connected to the iFi iDSD Pro by USB, I am using an audio quest diamond USB between them.

 

At the moment the Mac Pro or even an iPad or iPhone are only controlers to play and choosing the music or albums to play. Roon support the direct network connection of the iDSD Pro but in a very limited form I only tried 44.1khz format, the DXD and other PCM High Resolution formats are downsampled by Roon.

 

With SOTM in the middle it supports all formats up to DSD256, I noticed that in the SOTM Page https://www.sotm-audio.com/sotmwp/english/eunhasu_-native-dsd-support/ they support the Micro and Nano line of iFi products with native DSD, strongly not the iDSD Pro. But works perfectly over DOP protocol. I will have to try this with my Micro iDSD Black to have share that Native is working or simply DOP.

 

If you go to section 14 of this doc: http://docs.sotm-audio.com/doku.php?id=en:eunhasu:start#supported_native_dsd_dac_list

 

There is a definitive way to tell if the Eunhasu code will allow native DSD playback, as they (SOtM) appear to control it based on the USB id of the device, that you can view on the DAC Information screen in the Settings menu of the sMS.

 

Let us know what you find.

[applesnowleo]

44 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

If you go to section 14 of this doc: http://docs.sotm-audio.com/doku.php?id=en:eunhasu:start#supported_native_dsd_dac_list

 

There is a definitive way to tell if the Eunhasu code will allow native DSD playback, as they (SOtM) appear to control it based on the USB id of the device, that you can view on the DAC Information screen in the Settings menu of the sMS.

 

Let us know what you find.

 

Hello,

 

It appears to be supported but at the moment only white noise is produced when any of the native options are selected, by DOP works perfect..

Bus 002 Device 002: ID 20b1:3008 XMOS Ltd 

[gordec]

Someone told me using iphone/ipad as Roon endpoint with CCK adapter -> Jitterbug or equivalent -> DAC can sound as good or better than Ultrarendu + LPS. The pro IDSD already has micro iUSB, so it's another layer of noise reduction. I'm going to try this setup. I can't get around that Roon costs so much because I have a lot of Asian music, so some of the benefits of Roon may not be all there. But I'm down with improvind sound with an $30 camera adapter. I'm going to download the Roon trial. 

[applesnowleo]

I received my Babies today, will have to get a listen to them with some time next week.

 

 

[AMR/iFi audio]

50 minutes ago, applesnowleo said:

I received my Babies today, will have to get a listen to them with some time next week.

 

 

 

Please do write a word or two once you have your fun!

[applesnowleo]

The first words I have to say about it, I Am in love by a xDSD, this hardware design is love at first sight, makes me remind the build and quality of the Sony top of the line Walkman hardware of the 80's, latter their top of the linen latter minidisc players.

 

For the looks, build quality, it's like a jewel, I did not turn it on yet, but it's one of the most beautiful pieces I have haver seen.

 

I Will have a listen to it next week, received some more stuff that needs burn in.

 

[asdf1000]

Hi @AMR/iFi audio

 

Take your time with a response but since my questions are a bit scattered across 2-pages, here they are in one post. I've deleted a couple of questions as I found the answered buried in Head-Fi posts.

 

1. My current DAC needs an iFi Groundhog for grounding it's PSU (the Groundhog solves a buzzing issue). 

 

With the Pro iDSD a Groundhog will NOT be required right, because you have said the included iPower's DC plug -ve is continuous with it's AC inlet earth?

 

2. I imagine there's a fair bit of RF generated by the DSD re-mastering FPGA.. I know the analogue filtering will probably help with RF filtering but are there any other steps? Is theFPGA 'dog-housed' for shielding ?

 

3. How is intersample overs addressed, with the PCM digital filters and DSD re-mastering? I know this can be address by the end user by applying headroom management in the software playback, but for those playing bit perfectly to the Pro iDSD, just wanted to know how it is handled.

 

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/intersample-overs-in-cd-recordings

 

4. I tried the stack (Pro iDSD + Pro iCAN) and really liked it. Except one thing - the iCAN was LOUD at 9 o'clock on the volume knob on 0dB gain, using RCA interconnects. The Pro iDSD ALONE was absolutely fine with usable range over 10 o'clock on 0dB gain. I forgot to try and adjust the Pro iDSD's RCA outputs using variable output. It may have been on fixed HiFi or even fixed Pro levels - I didn't check.

 

Just to double check, the VARIABLE mode applies to both balanced and RCA outputs right? With HiFi Variable selected, what is the output voltage at 12 o'clock?

 

5. And the rear XLR and RCA outputs are ALWAYS in Class A mode right?

 

Thanks again !

[AMR/iFi audio]

On 8/17/2018 at 4:31 AM, Em2016 said:

1. My current DAC needs an iFi Groundhog for grounding it's PSU (the Groundhog solves a buzzing issue). 

 

With the Pro iDSD a Groundhog will NOT be required right, because you have said the included iPower's DC plug -ve is continuous with it's AC inlet earth?

 

Pro iDSD arrives with a 3-pin PSU, so no Groundhog is required.

 

On 8/17/2018 at 4:31 AM, Em2016 said:

4. I tried the stack (Pro iDSD + Pro iCAN) and really liked it. Except one thing - the iCAN was LOUD at 9 o'clock on the volume knob on 0dB gain, using RCA interconnects. The Pro iDSD ALONE was absolutely fine with usable range over 10 o'clock on 0dB gain. I forgot to try and adjust the Pro iDSD's RCA outputs using variable output. It may have been on fixed HiFi or even fixed Pro levels - I didn't check.

 

Just to double check, the VARIABLE mode applies to both balanced and RCA outputs right? With HiFi Variable selected, what is the output voltage at 12 o'clock?

 

Pro iDSD should have its outputs set to HiFi fixed if it's going to be used as a DAC only. The idea is to bypass its volume control if there's either Pro iCAN or any other headphone amp. There's no need to have two vol. controls along the road after all. All preamplifier modes apply to all analog outputs of Pro iDSD btw. 

 

The operable range should be somewhere in the 9 - 14 o'clock range. If the signal is very loud as early as 9 o'clock, it's for the best to double-check your settings. 

 

Also, you can shoot us a message here if there are any issues: http://support.ifi-audio.com

 

On 8/17/2018 at 4:31 AM, Em2016 said:

And the rear XLR and RCA outputs are ALWAYS in Class A mode right?

 

It's not outputs running in Class A but circuitry inside of our Pro range products. And yes, it's Class A alright.

 

Remaining questions we'll address later on, once our R&D team chas a second to provide more insight.

[applesnowleo]

On 8/16/2018 at 9:57 PM, AMR/iFi audio said:

 

Please do write a word or two once you have your fun!

 

English is not my home language, but I posted a small opinion on the xdsd in this post, 

 

 

The DC iPurifier 2 will follow.

[asdf1000]

4 hours ago, AMR/iFi audio said:

Pro iDSD should have its outputs set to HiFi fixed if it's going to be used as a DAC only. The idea is to bypass its volume control if there's either Pro iCAN or any other headphone amp. There's no need to have two vol. controls along the road after all. All preamplifier modes apply to all analog outputs of Pro iDSD btw. 

 

The operable range should be somewhere in the 9 - 14 o'clock range. If the signal is very loud as early as 9 o'clock, it's for the best to double-check your settings. 

 

Thanks @AMR/iFi audio !

 

I agree, we don't want 2 volume controls being used with the Pro iDSD + Pro iCAN stack.

 

I was really happy with the Pro iDSD volume levels alone, driving my cans. I was able to use 10-12 o'clock perfectly. On 0dB gain setting.

 

I was surprised that when we connected the Pro iCAN, again on 0dB gain, 9 o'clock was already too loud. This was with unbalanced RCA interconnects.

 

After I posted my question to you I called the deal to ask about the setting of the Pro iDSD and they confirmed it was on HiFi & Fixed and 0dB gain..

 

Is this strange? If I could use 12 o'clock with the Pro iDSD do you expect the exact same with the Pro iCAN when both are on 0dB and on HiFi & Fixed?

 

I was very close to purchasing this stack but this limited volume range with Pro iCAN was a turn-off. Hopefully there's a good explanation and easily solved (without using HiFi & Variable output on the Pro iDSD).

 

Just looking at the Pro iCAN manual now for the first time I see: 

"Single-Ended: 6.3mm TRS x 2 (use right jack for unbalanced headphones, however it is possible to drive two separate headphones simultaneously)."

 

I definitely used the LEFT 6.3mm jack for my demo with the Pro iDSD + Pro iCAN - do you think that is the cause for the 9 o'clock loud volume issue?

 

I see this Pro iCAN user had issues with the LEFT jack, but his was lower volume than the right:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ifi-ican-pro-impressions-discussion.795344/page-63#post-13962188

 

Whenever R&D can get around to it, here are my remaining queries, consolidated in one post (and one new one):

 

1. I imagine there's a fair bit of RF generated by the DSD re-mastering FPGA.. I know the analogue filtering will probably help with RF filtering but are there any other steps? Is the FPGA 'dog-housed' for EMI/RFI shielding ?

 

2. How is intersample overs addressed, with the PCM digital filters and DSD re-mastering? I know this can be address by the end user by applying headroom management in the software playback, but for those playing bit perfectly to the Pro iDSD, just wanted to know how it is handled.

 

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/intersample-overs-in-cd-recordings

 

3. What is the power output of Pro iDSD driving flat 14 ohms headphones? 

 

I've seen the following comment:

"The circuit path is entirely direct coupled, Class A (except when driving very low impedance headphones to very high power levels)."

 

Here is the impedance curve for my MrSpeaker AEON Closed - flat 14 ohms:

 

 

For flat 14 ohm impedance cans, is this still entirely direct couple, Class A?

 

[AMR/iFi audio]

Double, sorry.

[AMR/iFi audio]

Folks...

 

IFA 2018 
...it's almost here!

 

 

When?

• The 31st Aug - 5 Sept 2018!

The place?

• Berlin!

Where exactly?

• Hall 1.2, stand 206, WOD Audio (iFi's German distributor)

 

You'll have a chance to preview our EISA award winner - xDSD! Our two lovely girls - Victoria and Sarah - will be there supported by Thorsten Loesch himself.

 

If you'll attend, please visit us!

[austinpop]

2 hours ago, AMR/iFi audio said:

supported by Thorsten Loesch himself.

 

Proving again, that sometimes "Loesch" is more. 

 

[AMR/iFi audio]

22 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Proving again, that sometimes "Loesch" is more. 

 

 

In this specific case it is indeed 

[AMR/iFi audio]

On 8/20/2018 at 2:32 AM, Em2016 said:

1. I imagine there's a fair bit of RF generated by the DSD re-mastering FPGA.. I know the analogue filtering will probably help with RF filtering but are there any other steps? Is the FPGA 'dog-housed' for EMI/RFI shielding ?

 

In reality the FPGA is fairly quiet in term of radiated EMI and power supply noise.

 

On 8/20/2018 at 2:32 AM, Em2016 said:

Is the FPGA 'dog-housed' for EMI/RFI shielding ?

 

No, instead the FPGA and all other relatively "noisy" sections are on separate boards which feature a 4-layer design made to avoid any radiated EMI towards the main audio board. 

 

In addition, the whole digital section is galvanically isolated from the DAC/clock/audio board.

 

For external EMC regulation compliance the unit uses a metal case.

 

On 8/20/2018 at 2:32 AM, Em2016 said:

 How is intersample overs addressed, with the PCM digital filters and DSD re-mastering?

 

Bitperfect operation (no digital filter) and our GTO filter, due to being very "short", are free from this problem. As DSD signals are scaled to 0dBFS (PCM) = -6dB (DSD), the DSD Remastering system also doesn't have this issue regardless of a filter selected. 

 

Further, all "addressing inter-sample over's" does is dynamic range cutting in case of well-recorded music and digital data manipulation which precludes bitperfect playback.

 

Nicely recorded music does not feature heavy clipping which is a pre-requiste for "inter-sample overs" to occur outside testing with test signals to provoke them.

 

And if we are listing to a recording with heavy, sustained clipping, does some minor extra clipping on top of a flat line clipping matter?

 

Of course not, clipping on top of clipping is still a flat line, so the "intersamples overs" are "hidden" by the very problem that causes them in the first place and therefore they do not need to be addressed in the real world.

 

On 8/20/2018 at 2:32 AM, Em2016 said:

I know this can be address by the end user by applying headroom management in the software playback

 

We strongly recommend to not do that. Recordings which would provoke "intersample overs" will still be heavily clipped and sound poor anyway and those free from this problem will be degraded.

 

On 8/20/2018 at 2:32 AM, Em2016 said:

3. What is the power output of Pro iDSD driving flat 14 ohms headphones? 

 

This depends on headphones wired balanced or unbalanced. 

 

In balanced mode maximum output of 10V is available, while rated at 16 ohms it will also be available for 14 ohms loads with a minor increase in power over 16 ohms.

 

Generally speaking, power is a poor indicator of headphones' compatibility. Rating these in dB/mW (as is common) is extremely confusing. A better measure is to rate in dB/1V (similar to speaker sensitivity ratings that are nowadays dB/2.83V regardless of actual speaker impedance).

 

Alternatively the innerfidelity.com system of XXV @ 90dB is also useful and can be easily converted to dB/1V.

 

Our headphone calculator can help to normalise different ratings for sensitivity and to see if a combination can play sufficiently loud to meet the THX playback level recommendations, if it will be much louder (earbuddy or iEMatch should be added) or not loud enough. 

[asdf1000]

42 minutes ago, AMR/iFi audio said:

This depends on headphones wired balanced or unbalanced. 

 In balanced mode maximum output of 10V is available, while rated at 16 ohms it will also be available for 14 ohms loads with a minor increase in power over 16 ohms.

 

Thanks for all the great info @AMR/iFi audio ! Your expertise and knowledge sharing is very much appreciated.

 

A short short follow-up to the above quoted - in unbalanced mode can Pro iDSD drive a flat 14-ohm load ?

 

And would it be biased towards Class A, across all volumes at this flat 14 ohm impedance?

 

The Pro iDSD’s headpone amp is rated for > 16 ohms.

 

14 ohms is obviously close to 16 but I just wanted to double check what happens if Pro iDSD needs to drive < 16 ohms, in this case for a flat impedance

 

The only other question which wasn’t answered was the one regarding volume difference (volume knob position) when adding Pro iCAN to Pro iDSD.  Both on 0dB gain and set to “HiFi fixed” and using unbalanced RCA. In summary , in my demo I could use Pro iDSD at 12 oclock but when Pro iCAN was added 9 oclock was too loud.  Is this normal? Or should volume knob positions be identical with the above settings.

 

 

Really appreciate it.

[MoWa]

Hi Em2016 (and IFI)

 

I think they are “ignoring” your question regarding the volume control position on the iCAN, since I guess there is a hardware  “problem” in the analogue circuit.

 

I have connected my Pro iDSD balanced and unbalanced to my iCAN and with both connections and the output of the Pro iDSD set to fixed hifi, I will hardly (actually never) rotate the volume knob on the iCAN beyond the 9 clock position and the volume level at 9 clock is quite high. This applies to all of my 3 major headsets, Utopia, Clear and Elear. I listen to them in balanced mode, but this is what it was designed for - right ?

 

In front of  the Pro iDSD I am running Roon transport with the volume control set to DAC only - like it should be, in order to have a lossless data transmission to the DAC. I am streaming own AIFF and Tidal files, and there is no difference really regarding the high volume output on the iCAN, making it operate in an unconvenient area of the volume controller...hmm.

 

I have figured this already in the very beginning and started therefore to use the Pro iDSD in variable hifi mode, but the sound quality is audibly better in fixed hifi mode.

 

I think it is a pitty, since otherwise both units are by far the best what I had the pleasure to use in my set-up until today.

 

P.S. Roon sounds better to my ears than Aurdivana (I am running it on a mac). Just my 2 cents.