Discussions of alternate "energizing"/charging PS units for use with UltraCap LPS-1 (not that any will make ANY difference to output)

[scan80269]

Hi,

 

I run the TeraDak 30w 9v 2AMP and have not experienced any hum, warming, noise, etc. at all. This is running it with the microRendu directly, and with the LPS-1 and microRendu combo. IMO, the microRendu sounded awesome with the TeraDak before the LPS-1. But after, with the LPS-1, the SQ went up a very significant notch. Before the LPS-1, - the microRendu was also significantly warmer, (now it's cool to the touch). The LPS-1 is now a little warm, but significantly cooler than the microRendu was.

 

Cheers,

On this topic, I just noticed my Teradak 30W LPS has the two secondary windings of the R-core transformer wired in parallel, with the two pairs of colored wires soldered together near the PCB edge. Is it possible for the two secondary windings to be accidentally soldered together out of phase with each other? Can the load-dependent hum noise be a symptom of the two windings being out of phase?

 

I did notice the raw rectified DC (before 3-pin regulator) of this LPS dropping very significantly with increased load current, which I find rather suspicious.

[scan80269]

On this topic, I just noticed my Teradak 30W LPS has the two secondary windings of the R-core transformer wired in parallel, with the two pairs of colored wires soldered together near the PCB edge. Is it possible for the two secondary windings to be accidentally soldered together out of phase with each other? Can the load-dependent hum noise be a symptom of the two windings being out of phase?

 

I did notice the raw rectified DC (before 3-pin regulator) of this LPS dropping very significantly with increased load current, which I find rather suspicious.

I just realized I asked a lame-brain question (is this what happens when my thoughts drift to audio during the day job...) There is no way a transformer with its two secondary windings connected in parallel out of phase can work properly. It would essentially be short-circuited on the secondary side, and the hum would be many times louder than what I've been hearing from the Teradak R-core under load, not to mention the thing would also overheat quickly and become a safety hazard.

 

I'll probably try adding an RC damper circuit to the Teradak to see if the hum symptoms change.

[louisxiawei]

I've just placed the order of LPS-1. Can't wait for it. I used to use Sbooster 5V for my Uptone regen.

 

Although I understand Alex's opinion that: there is NOTHING about the quality of it that can have ANY effect whatsoever on the quality of the OUTPUT from the UltraCap LPS-1.

 

But I still see MCRU especailly developed a regualted linear power supply unit for LPS-1.

 

http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/home/1379-regulated-linear-power-supply-for-uptone-audio-ultracap-lps-1.html

 

Just wondering is MCRU just being blind to develop this regulated linear power supply or it might be an exception to be effective?

 

 

[pl_svn]

is MCRU just being blind to develop this regulated linear power supply or it might be an exception to be effective?

 

*third* hypothesis is the right one

[louisxiawei]

*third* hypothesis is the right one

 

Getting confused, where is the 3rd hypothesis? I'm not being sarcastic but really want to know whether it is necessary to feed LPS-1 with another Linear power supply.

[firedog]

If you look at what Alex and John have written, they basically tell you not to waste your money on upgrades to the "feeder" supply.

 

Sometimes you just have to let go of the audiophile nervosa and save your money.

[louisxiawei]

If you look at what Alex and John have written, they basically tell you not to waste your money on upgrades to the "feeder" supply.

 

Sometimes you just have to let go of the audiophile nervosa and save your money.

 

Cheers, man. Duly noted.

 

The funny thing is: I emailed MCRU regarding their regulated LPS for LPS-1 this morning, want to know whether it is truly effective.

 

You know what they replied? They emailed me back: there is no need to use LPS-1 for your uptone regen or microrendu, our LPS is the best.

 

I have a second question now:

 

On the website, it is mentioned that "the adventurous could even purchase two units and hook their outputs up in series, perhaps with one set to 7V and the other to 5V to obtain 12V"

 

Since I have an exasound e12 need a 12V linear power supply, at the moment I'm using Sbooster 12V, how am I going to hook two units of LPS-1 and output 12V? Any connector I should purchase in order to do that?

 

Any help would be appreciated,

Wei

[pl_svn]

You know what they replied? They emailed me back: there is no need to use LPS-1 for your uptone regen or microrendu, our LPS is the best.

 

so... third hypothesis was definitely proved to be the right one

[charlesphoto]

MCRU certainly aren't being blind to sell these (business is business), though any purchaser certainly would be. Better off using that money to buy a second LPS-1 for powering other components. If it's truly felt that one needs an lps for energizing their Uptone, then plenty of cheap ones from HK on eBay that would work just fine. I'm using the ifi 9v left over from my initial purchase of the rendu and it works.

[louisxiawei]

MCRU certainly aren't being blind to sell these (business is business), though any purchaser certainly would be. Better off using that money to buy a second LPS-1 for powering other components. If it's truly felt that one needs an lps for energizing their Uptone, then plenty of cheap ones from HK on eBay that would work just fine. I'm using the ifi 9v left over from my initial purchase of the rendu and it works.

 

Thanks.

 

Can you tell the difference between energizing LPS-1 with stock smps and ifi 9V power?

 

Because according to designers' purpose, it will make no difference.

[charlesphoto]

Thanks.

 

Can you tell the difference between energizing LPS-1 with stock smps and ifi 9V power?

 

Because according to designers' purpose, it will make no difference.

 

I honestly haven't tried. I figured since I have an open and already used ifi that wouldn't command much in resell I may as well use it. I have other components plugged into that circuit as well, so hopefully the hifi will limit any ac feedback to a degree. A comment on the Naim forum said he felt powering the LPS-1 with a cheap ebay lps vs the supplied wall wart gave the rendu more body and attack but who knows why.

[barrows]

I've just placed the order of LPS-1. Can't wait for it. I used to use Sbooster 5V for my Uptone regen.

 

Although I understand Alex's opinion that: there is NOTHING about the quality of it that can have ANY effect whatsoever on the quality of the OUTPUT from the UltraCap LPS-1.

 

But I still see MCRU especailly developed a regualted linear power supply unit for LPS-1.

 

http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/home/1379-regulated-linear-power-supply-for-uptone-audio-ultracap-lps-1.html

 

Just wondering is MCRU just being blind to develop this regulated linear power supply or it might be an exception to be effective?

 

 

 

I think what you power the LPS-1 will matter, not because it will have any effect on the output of the LPS-1 itself, but because the supply will have an effect on the AC power feeding the entire system. I prefer to have no cheap a** noisy power supplies anywhere near my audio system.

[charlesphoto]

I think what you power the LPS-1 will matter, not because it will have any effect on the output of the LPS-1 itself, but because the supply will have an effect on the AC power feeding the entire system. I prefer to have no cheap a** noisy power supplies anywhere near my audio system.

 

You are most likely correct, but only one's ears (and an ac sniffer) will know for sure. It also depends on VFM and the full system and how resolving it is. For my set up I think the ifi's will be good enough for certain components (LPS-1, ifi spdif purifier, and maybe downstream FMC when it arrives) that will remain isolated from other components (DAC, amp) power. Not only will that lessen the number of black boxes, but I also know I will get a lot more bang for the buck if I save up for a bigger amp. This whole CA thing is obviously a moving target, and depending, things will sound 'different' but not sure if there's ever a wrong or a right per se. Just depend on your ears and how the music moves you.

[YashN]

You are most likely correct, but only one's ears (and an ac sniffer) will know for sure.

@barrows is absolutely correct in what he says about some extant noise potentially still affecting other gear through the mains.

[YashN]

I prefer to have no cheap a** noisy power supplies anywhere near my audio system.

Same here.

[louisxiawei]

@barrows is absolutely correct in what he says about some extant noise potentially still affecting other gear through the mains.

Guess if I have other SMPS plugged on my LINDY power strip, my AC is already being polluted.

 

Unfortunately, I only have a 6V sbooster LPS left, and it cannot power the LPS-1. Otherwise, I will definitely do an AB test.

 

Thanks again for the information.

[gstew]

Thanks.

 

Can you tell the difference between energizing LPS-1 with stock smps and ifi 9V power?

 

Because according to designers' purpose, it will make no difference.

 

I have run LPS-1s with 3 supplies so far... the stock Meanwell, a cheapo 12v supply, and a DIY 12v supply. I could not tell a difference in the sound of the gear powered by the LPS-1s with any of the energizing supplies. I DID have some noise bleed-through with the Meanwell, discussing it with Alex we suspect it was radiated noise picked up through my transformer volume controls. But it only happened in certain configurations while not playing and when setup for playing, no noise and no difference.

 

I'm currently building two pretty massive DIY supplies designed to each power up to 4 LPS-1s... I have plans....

 

 

I think what you power the LPS-1 will matter, not because it will have any effect on the output of the LPS-1 itself, but because the supply will have an effect on the AC power feeding the entire system. I prefer to have no cheap a** noisy power supplies anywhere near my audio system.

 

@barrows is absolutely correct in what he says about some extant noise potentially still affecting other gear through the mains.

 

While my current amps DO have SMPSs, I do not use any other SMPSs with my audio gear, including source computers and networking gear. And where I have changed SMPSs out for DIY'd linear supplies, when they are directly powering a piece of gear, I have generally heard improvements. I do have a friend swearing his R-Pi-based player using a modified HiFiBerry DAC+ Pro sounds better with a specific SMPS powering the Pi, I'll be trying that in my setup soon.

 

But I'm with Barrows and YashN and generally keep generic consumer SMPSs out of my setups.

 

 

 

Cheers, man. Duly noted.

 

The funny thing is: I emailed MCRU regarding their regulated LPS for LPS-1 this morning, want to know whether it is truly effective.

 

You know what they replied? They emailed me back: there is no need to use LPS-1 for your uptone regen or microrendu, our LPS is the best.

 

I did an interesting test a few days back. I powered an SDTrans384 feeding a somewhat modified Soekris DAM DAC with the following:

 

1. A DIY linear supply based on the K&K Audio Low Voltage Supply here: http://www.kandkaudio.com/other-kits/ . It was the 12 watt version with larger caps before and after the regulator.

 

2. A single LPS-1 set to 5v

 

3. A single LPS-1 set to 7v feeding a Belleson 5V/2A regulator.

 

4. 2 LPS-1s set to 5v in parallel.

 

#1 was good all around, but did not beat any of the other options in any parameter.

 

#2 was the cleanest and most focused and detailed, but not as dynamic as any of the others. That doesn't mean it is not dynamic, just not as much as the others in direct comparison.

 

#3 was about as dynamic as #1 & #4. Also it was more focused and detailed than #1, but not as good as #2 or #4

 

#4 was more focused and detailed than any of the others EXCEPT #2, where it lost out a bit, though decisively. It was up in the same realm of dynamics as #1 & #3.

 

I stuck with the single LPS-1, #2, as my preferred power source for this, my best digital source.

 

My next try will be a dual paralleled LT3042 regulator board from OPC on DIYAudio, powered by 2 LPS-1s set to 7V, and paralleled at the output of the two paralleled LT3042 sections (each has 4 of the regs giving about a 1A output capacity). I'm hoping this will give me the benefits of the additional current capacity of 2 LPS-1s while retaining the detail and focus I get with a single one direct.

 

 

 

I have a second question now:

 

On the website, it is mentioned that "the adventurous could even purchase two units and hook their outputs up in series, perhaps with one set to 7V and the other to 5V to obtain 12V"

 

Since I have an exasound e12 need a 12V linear power supply, at the moment I'm using Sbooster 12V, how am I going to hook two units of LPS-1 and output 12V? Any connector I should purchase in order to do that?

 

Any help would be appreciated,

Wei

 

See this post from Alex where he described a quick and dirty series adapter:

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f27-uptone-audio-sponsored/ultracap%99-linear-power-supply-1-operation-and-pre-purchase-thread-30173/index5.html#post615780

 

While I haven't done this myself, I did make up a quick DIY adapter for a friend who used it with two LPS-1s in series to power his Aries Mini to good effect:

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f22-networking-networked-audio-and-streaming/overall-isolation-network-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-and-power-29916/index21.html#post618874

 

Greg in Mississippi

[gstew]

I MAY be the heaviest user of LPS-1’s around, with 8 in various positions in my 2 setups.

 

Of course, energizing that many means a bunch of separate power boxes & a lot of AC outlets.

 

I did repurpose an early computer music player linear supply with dual outputs as an LPS-1 energizer… but it was not enough.

 

Earlier this year I started to build 2 quad-output power supplies just to energize my LPS-1s. They started with:

 

1.       A hefty toroid with 2 10V/10A secondaries (surplus buys, so surprisingly inexpensive)

2.       Diode bridges using good fast-recovery diodes (same family as the often-used MSR860) with John Swenson transformer ringing suppression snubbers

3.       47,000uf post-diode filter caps (also surplus from Ebay and inexpensive)

4.       2 LT1083 7.5A  regulators per side (sadly obsolete, but I had a sufficient stock in my parts boxes) for 4 outputs per supply

5.       Another 47,000uf filter cap on the output of each regulator

6.       Hefty wire all the way to the output connectors

7.       All in a good cost-effective EBay case with good heatsinks

 

These should EASILY put 3-4  amps into each output all-day/all-night.

 

Done, right?

 

Wrong!!!!

 

On the plus side they worked VERY well as LPS-1 energizers. On the negative side, the SQ of my systems went subtly south with these units installed. Of course, what you feed an LPS-1 with DOES NOT IMPACT THE OUTPUT AT ALL! No questions on that. So they must be feeding noise back into my AC circuits.

 

First, you have to understand I am a FANATIC about AC power… so much I’m looking at a solar power setup so I can take my audio systems off the grid! To get the best AC power I can, I have the following:

 

-          A PS Audio P10 in each system powering the main audio gear only, with at least a couple stages of parallel AC filters ahead of each P10.

 

-          ALL audio-related, but not core audio gear are on a separate AC circuit, again with multiple parallel AC filters. This includes my music servers and associated networking gear.

 

-          The music servers and associated network gear are all chosen for fairly low-power usage to help keep their electrical noise low AND all are powered from linear supplies (mostly DIY’d).

 

-          There’s a LOT of noise filtering in the house… clamp-on chokes on every household item that produces noise and a large number of parallel filters around the house on the circuits powering those noisy items.

 

-          An Entech AC noise analyzer used to determine where to place these filters AND confirm effectiveness.

 

These LPS-1 energizing supplies were of course plugged into the non-core audio gear separate circuits. AND still I got a subtle, but noticeable drop in SQ.

 

Back to the bench… replace the fast-recovery diodes with some higher-current Schottkys and an dual-snubber setup. 47,000uf caps at the output of each regulator come out and after some experimentation, get replaced with much smaller 1,800uf caps. Add more filtering on the AC input. Try some series resistance on the secondaries to lower the filter capacitor charging peaks… these quickly came out as they caused too much drop in available output current.

 

Testing this all on my bench, the final setups seemed to function almost good AC filters too… just plugging in the energizing supplies almost eliminated AC line noise as indicated on the Entech... and the magnitude of drop helped me confirm some of these changes.

 

Put them back in the system for a trial yesterday (as before, I’m just plugging them into the separate AC power circuit to assess SQ impact, they weren’t powering LPS-1s at that point)… And DANG, not only did the SQ not drop, but it subtly improved ,with a small drop in background noise (to my ear). It was even more improvement (again to my ear) than SQ drop before!

 

HOT DANG!

 

And it got a little better when I pulled out the various LPS-1 energizing supplies I’d been using (none of which had ANY optimization, but all were much lower power supplies and less likely to cause significant AC line pollution) and used these supplies  to power my LPS-1s.

 

Gotta love progress!

 

Attached is a poor picture of one of the units on my bench… and a couple shots of my output checking setup showing no-load versus a 6 ohm test load (which should cause about a 1.9 amp draw). They handled that nicely with only a small voltage drop, which stays about the same when all 4 outputs are loaded simultaneously. 

 

And in the systems, each energizing 3 LPS-1s right now, they are at room temp, no heat at all (which was not true of the variety of supplies I used earlier).

 

Gotta love DIY!!!!

 

Greg in Mississippi

[JohnSwenson]

40 minutes ago, gstew said:

I MAY be the heaviest user of LPS-1’s around, with 8 in various positions in my 2 setups.

 

Of course, energizing that many means a bunch of separate power boxes & a lot of AC outlets.

 

I did repurpose an early computer music player linear supply with dual outputs as an LPS-1 energizer… but it was not enough.

 

Earlier this year I started to build 2 quad-output power supplies just to energize my LPS-1s. They started with:

 

1.       A hefty toroid with 2 10V/10A secondaries (surplus buys, so surprisingly inexpensive)

2.       Diode bridges using good fast-recovery diodes (same family as the often-used MSR860) with John Swenson transformer ringing suppression snubbers

3.       47,000uf post-diode filter caps (also surplus from Ebay and inexpensive)

4.       2 LT1083 7.5A  regulators per side (sadly obsolete, but I had a sufficient stock in my parts boxes) for 4 outputs per supply

5.       Another 47,000uf filter cap on the output of each regulator

6.       Hefty wire all the way to the output connectors

7.       All in a good cost-effective EBay case with good heatsinks

 

These should EASILY put 3-4  amps into each output all-day/all-night.

 

Done, right?

 

Wrong!!!!

 

On the plus side they worked VERY well as LPS-1 energizers. On the negative side, the SQ of my systems went subtly south with these units installed. Of course, what you feed an LPS-1 with DOES NOT IMPACT THE OUTPUT AT ALL! No questions on that. So they must be feeding noise back into my AC circuits.

 

First, you have to understand I am a FANATIC about AC power… so much I’m looking at a solar power setup so I can take my audio systems off the grid! To get the best AC power I can, I have the following:

 

-          A PS Audio P10 in each system powering the main audio gear only, with at least a couple stages of parallel AC filters ahead of each P10.

 

-          ALL audio-related, but not core audio gear are on a separate AC circuit, again with multiple parallel AC filters. This includes my music servers and associated networking gear.

 

-          The music servers and associated network gear are all chosen for fairly low-power usage to help keep their electrical noise low AND all are powered from linear supplies (mostly DIY’d).

 

-          There’s a LOT of noise filtering in the house… clamp-on chokes on every household item that produces noise and a large number of parallel filters around the house on the circuits powering those noisy items.

 

-          An Entech AC noise analyzer used to determine where to place these filters AND confirm effectiveness.

 

These LPS-1 energizing supplies were of course plugged into the non-core audio gear separate circuits. AND still I got a subtle, but noticeable drop in SQ.

 

Back to the bench… replace the fast-recovery diodes with some higher-current Schottkys and an dual-snubber setup. 47,000uf caps at the output of each regulator come out and after some experimentation, get replaced with much smaller 1,800uf caps. Add more filtering on the AC input. Try some series resistance on the secondaries to lower the filter capacitor charging peaks… these quickly came out as they caused too much drop in available output current.

 

Testing this all on my bench, the final setups seemed to function almost good AC filters too… just plugging in the energizing supplies almost eliminated AC line noise as indicated on the Entech... and the magnitude of drop helped me confirm some of these changes.

 

Put them back in the system for a trial yesterday (as before, I’m just plugging them into the separate AC power circuit to assess SQ impact, they weren’t powering LPS-1s at that point)… And DANG, not only did the SQ not drop, but it subtly improved ,with a small drop in background noise (to my ear). It was even more improvement (again to my ear) than SQ drop before!

 

HOT DANG!

 

And it got a little better when I pulled out the various LPS-1 energizing supplies I’d been using (none of which had ANY optimization, but all were much lower power supplies and less likely to cause significant AC line pollution) and used these supplies  to power my LPS-1s.

 

Gotta love progress!

 

Attached is a poor picture of one of the units on my bench… and a couple shots of my output checking setup showing no-load versus a 6 ohm test load (which should cause about a 1.9 amp draw). They handled that nicely with only a small voltage drop, which stays about the same when all 4 outputs are loaded simultaneously. 

 

And in the systems, each energizing 3 LPS-1s right now, they are at room temp, no heat at all (which was not true of the variety of supplies I used earlier).

 

Gotta love DIY!!!!

 

Greg in Mississippi

Hi Greg,

yep the huge spikes caused by large caps on a standard bridge to cap supply generate a lot of noise. Going to smaller caps helps a lot but doesn't completely eliminate the problem. But then you don't have a lot of cap to handle short term large current changes.

 

This is why I have the circuit that is in the JS-2 which uses a small initial cap, feeding a high current choke, then a large cap. The circuit is carefully tuned such that the load on the diode bridge is almost resistive, thus no big spikes, but there ARE large caps on the output which can supply a large amount of short term current. The whole thing is tuned so the output will respond very quickly.

 

Of course all that is useless for a LPS-1 feeder. So just going with a small cap is fine.

 

John S.

[gstew]

9 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said:

Hi Greg,

yep the huge spikes caused by large caps on a standard bridge to cap supply generate a lot of noise. Going to smaller caps helps a lot but doesn't completely eliminate the problem. But then you don't have a lot of cap to handle short term large current changes.

 

This is why I have the circuit that is in the JS-2 which uses a small initial cap, feeding a high current choke, then a large cap. The circuit is carefully tuned such that the load on the diode bridge is almost resistive, thus no big spikes, but there ARE large caps on the output which can supply a large amount of short term current. The whole thing is tuned so the output will respond very quickly.

 

Of course all that is useless for a LPS-1 feeder. So just going with a small cap is fine.

 

John S.

 

Hey John!

 

Yup, I even considered adding a couple of chokes to resolve the issue, but no space in the enclosure. Your configuration (as used in your JS-2) is IMHO the gold-standard solution for an AC-connected power supply.

 

On my standard DIY'd AC supplies with fairly large filter capacitors I generally use 4-pole capacitors. Their construction puts the cap's inherent inductance in series, which seems to help lower the noise fed back into the AC lines. BUT 4x ~$80/cap was a bit too rich for these supplies.

 

I'm just happy I was able to quiet them down with some fairly minor adjustments.

 

AND of course, best to you in getting settled in the new house!

 

Later!

 

Greg

 

 

[Superdad]

Hi Greg:

 

Good work!  You are a madman! 

 

John beat me to it regarding the cap balancing, but the comment that he missed--and which for a supply whose output quality does not matter (charging LPS-1s) but where a person like you is very sensitive about ANYTHING being kicked back in the mains--is with regards the JS-2's choke filtering and what that results in.

 

I won't be telling you anything you don't know, but since a conventional trans>diode>cap>regulator supply only conducts current over about half the AC wave-cycle, harmonics are going to get kicked back into the wall and there will be some "flat-topping" of the AC no matter what you do.  

Adding the DC filter choke (well, carefully designing it in) in series--after the first cap after the diodes--results in a power-factor-corrected supply.  That is, it conducts current over about 97% of the AC wave-cycle (so PF of 0.97), resulting in virtually zero harmonics being kick back and no distortion of the mains.  AFAIK, the JS-2 is the only power-factor-corrected LPS on the market.

 

So maybe your next project will be a choke-filtered supply.  Or you could buy a JS-2.   It will happily put out 7A all day long at 12V. And will even run cool at that. So its 2 outputs could could each have a 'Y' cable to two LPS-1s.  At 12V they draw 1.5A each.  So you would just be using 6 amps of its total capability.

Of course I know DIY is more fun for you--and the LAST thing you need to do is send us more money for power supplies!  Rather you save your pennies for some of our future projects... 

 

Best,

--Alex C.

 

[Superdad]

6 minutes ago, gstew said:

On my standard DIY'd AC supplies with fairly large filter capacitors I generally use 4-pole capacitors. Their construction puts the cap's inherent inductance in series, which seems to help lower the noise fed back into the AC lines. BUT 4x ~$80/cap was a bit too rich for these supplies.

 

Oh yes, I go WAY back (20 years?) with Dennis Morecroft and both his slit-foil electrolytics (fabulous in amps and preamps--that's all we used at Hovland for the big PC caps) and his 4-terminal caps.

[jelt2359]

Let me preface this post by saying I only listen to headphones (not speakers) and so the drivers are next to my ears and I hear way more than you’d typically detect with speakers. 

 

But to my ears the power supply to the Lps-1 makes a difference. One good change ive found it putting an ifi ac ipurifier before the Lps-1’s energiser, to the point that as I have three Lps-1 I now also have three ifi ac ipurifiers. 

 

I put the lps-1 on a separate power line from my audio gear to reduce the effect of the switching power leakage, and the chain now looks like this on the distributor:

 

(First slot) ifi ac ipurifier -> Lps-1 Energizer -> ipurifier -> energizer-> ipurifier -> (last slot) Energizer)

 

the sound is smoother and richer and has a quieter background overall. 

 

Cheers!