Apple lightning 3.5mm adapter - Can it do 24/96 with appropriate app?

[miguelito]

Has anyone tried this? How would you be able to tell it is not being downsampled?

 

The upcoming Fiiio i1 adapter looks to be using this chip:

 

http://www.nuvoton.com/resource-files/NAU88L25_ProductBrief_Rev0-6.pdf

 

and I would not be surprised if the chip in the lightning-3.5mm adapter is a functionally very similar chip (prob not this same chip since the snr of the one above is much higher than the one in the Apple adapter).

 

in any case, I have not used a high res player on the iPhone.

 

Thx.

[mansr]

How would you be able to tell it is not being downsampled?

 

Measure it. Even a built-in PC sound card is good enough for this.

[miguelito]

Measure it. Even a built-in PC sound card is good enough for this.

Great idea. Would you generate a tone at say 40khz, put it into a FLAC file and measure the output or simply take a file known to have freq content above 22khz?

 

I was thinking about something simpler like the high-res app telling you, but obviously this could be then downsampled by Apple prior to the output.

[mansr]

Great idea. Would you generate a tone at say 40khz, put it into a FLAC file and measure the output or simply take a file known to have freq content above 22khz?

 

I was thinking about something simpler like the high-res app telling you, but obviously this could be then downsampled by Apple prior to the output.

I'd use high-frequency tones or white noise.

[miguelito]

I'd use high-frequency tones or white noise.

So here's the answer: If I play a 24/96 white noise wav using Onkyo HF Player, the bandwidth is reduced to 48KHz. I recorded the file with my mac pro, using Audacity, and it's a 24/96 wav recorded file. Here are the Musicscope screens:

 

 

[miguelito]

So here's the answer: If I play a 24/96 white noise wav using Onkyo HF Player, the bandwidth is reduced to 48KHz. I recorded the file with my mac pro, using Audacity, and it's a 24/96 wav recorded file. Here are the Musicscope screens:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]29306[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]29307[/ATTACH]

Just did a loopback check to confirm recording is not the bandwidth limiter:

 

 

Also meant sample rate is reduced to 48KHz, bandwidth to 24KHz of course.

[miguelito]

I've expanded the tests. The test involves playing a white noise 24/96 file using Onkyo HF Player app on iOS, and recording the analog output out of various devices with a mac pro line in which can do 24/96 resolution. As shown above the recording end is indeed 24/96 (it shows 16/96 bc of the export format of the recorded file but that is irrelevant here).

 

I find all of Apple's analog delivery mechanisms, specifically:

1- Lightning-3.5mm

2- Lightning-30pin

3- iPhone 6 analog out (3.5mm jack)

are all capped at 48KHz sampling rate.

 

I was particularly surprised about the analog output on the iPhone 6 - I had the misconception that the DAC inside the iPhone would allow me to decode 96KHz sampling rate without downsampling, but it doesn't seem to be the case.

 

I have still have to try a DAC using the USB camera connection kit (CCK) - the only one I have, Ray Samuels Predator, maxes out at 48KHz.

 

I wonder if any "pure lightning interface" DAC - ie not going through the CCK - will be able to support anything above 48KHz.

[Jud]

I've expanded the tests. The test involves playing a white noise 24/96 file using Onkyo HF Player app on iOS, and recording the analog output out of various devices with a mac pro line in which can do 24/96 resolution. As shown above the recording end is indeed 24/96 (it shows 16/96 bc of the export format of the recorded file but that is irrelevant here).

 

I find all of Apple's analog delivery mechanisms, specifically:

1- Lightning-3.5mm

2- Lightning-30pin

3- iPhone 6 analog out (3.5mm jack)

are all capped at 48KHz sampling rate.

 

I was particularly surprised about the analog output on the iPhone 6 - I had the misconception that the DAC inside the iPhone would allow me to decode 96KHz sampling rate without downsampling, but it doesn't seem to be the case.

 

I have still have to try a DAC using the USB camera connection kit (CCK) - the only one I have, Ray Samuels Predator, maxes out at 48KHz.

 

I wonder if any "pure lightning interface" DAC - ie not going through the CCK - will be able to support anything above 48KHz.

 

Really interesting thread, Miguel, looking forward to more.

[miguelito]

Really interesting thread, Miguel, looking forward to more.

After some consideration of other options I just ordered an Oppo HA-2SE. We shall see.

[Jud]

After some consideration of other options I just ordered an Oppo HA-2SE. We shall see.

 

Looks so much like an old Zippo lighter.

[miguelito]

Looks so much like an old Zippo lighter.

Trudat! I think it looks elegant actually - which is not unimportant to me.

 

If I take up cigar smoking I will root for lighting support...

[GregWormald]

That Oppo is a nice looking bit of kit.

It would co-ordinate well with the iPhone 4 :-) --still, IMO, one of the best looking phones.

 

What quality does the iPhone 7 output through the Lightning connector? and does it pass through the Lightning-->USB cord?

 

Greg

[miguelito]

That Oppo is a nice looking bit of kit.

It would co-ordinate well with the iPhone 4 :-) --still, IMO, one of the best looking phones.

I actually find the iPhone 7 beautiful, my favorite. I've had them all since iPhone 3.

 

What quality does the iPhone 7 output through the Lightning connector?

Lightning output is digital, and it looks capped to 24bit/48KHz max resolution. I don't know if this is a hardware limit but there are ways to get higher resolution out (use HF Player, the camera connection kit, and a USB DAC for example).

 

In terms of the quality of the lightning-3.5mm adapter compared to the headphone out on the iPhone 6, I did such comparison and found the adapter to be better. I can only speculate why so I won't.

 

does it pass through the Lightning-->USB cord?

I don't understand the question

[GregWormald]

If the Lightning output is capped at 24/48, how do you get more out?

 

If you can get more out via other connectors than the headphone dongle, then surely it is not capped.

 

Greg

[miguelito]

If the Lightning output is capped at 24/48, how do you get more out?

 

If you can get more out via other connectors than the headphone dongle, then surely it is not capped.

I presume there are different connection types through the lightning connector. For example, the USB connection is a data connection whereas the lightning audio connection is likely getting an audio data stream from the iphone itself, like spdif or similar. So the iphone itself would limit the spdif data rate by downsampling anything above 48KHz but wouldn't do that for generic data. This is speculation which seems corroborated by what we see.

[miguelito]

I presume there are different connection types through the lightning connector. For example, the USB connection is a data connection whereas the lightning audio connection is likely getting an audio data stream from the iphone itself, like spdif or similar. So the iphone itself would limit the spdif data rate by downsampling anything above 48KHz but wouldn't do that for generic data. This is speculation which seems corroborated by what we see.

Which actually makes an interesting point if correct: I wonder if the new dongles coming out - such as Fiio i1 - will identify themselves to the iPhone as a lightning DAC (in which case you get capped spdif out) or a USB audio DAC (in which case you would not).

 

All of this is speculation again (albeit in line with the observed behavior, I am an experimental phycisist by training). Would really like to know if anyone knows precisely how this works.

[richardgrant]

My apologies if this was mentioned earlier in the thread (I was only skimming as I am not a technically savvy chap) but ... the iFixIt teardown revealed that the new Apple lightning-to-3.5 adapter contains DAC circuitry — I believe in the form of an unbelievably tiny chip with a hitherto-unseen identifier that starts with "TW", presumably signifying that it was fabricated in Taiwan.

 

Here you go: Apple Lightning to Headphone Jack Adapter Teardown - iFixit

[maelob]

I use the dragonfly black with cck and it totally fit in my pocket- I even use it to the gym- sounds really good and go to 24/96- i believe the red can go to 192. I also own the Audeze Sine with cypher lightning cable and it sounds amazing.

[miguelito]

I use the dragonfly black with cck and it totally fit in my pocket- I even use it to the gym- sounds really good and go to 24/96- i believe the red can go to 192. I also own the Audeze Sine with cypher lightning cable and it sounds amazing.

Audeze Sine is out already?

[maelob]

Yes, for about 4 months or so. I am really happy with it. Cypher cable is really cool with eq capabilities.

[miguelito]

Has anyone tried this? How would you be able to tell it is not being downsampled?

 

The upcoming Fiiio i1 adapter looks to be using this chip:

 

http://www.nuvoton.com/resource-files/NAU88L25_ProductBrief_Rev0-6.pdf

 

and I would not be surprised if the chip in the lightning-3.5mm adapter is a functionally very similar chip (prob not this same chip since the snr of the one above is much higher than the one in the Apple adapter).

 

in any case, I have not used a high res player on the iPhone.

 

Thx.

This is very likely the chip used by Apple:

 

https://www.cirrus.com/en/mobile/products/pro/detail/P1411.html

 

which is quite similar (identical?) to the novuton chip.

 

I would expect that if the Fiio i1 does not implement a USB like connection, it will also be capped at 24/48.

[Donzauker]

Hi.

I'm a bit late here but...

Upgraded iPad Air to iOS 10 in order to use the lightning/3.5 jack adapter.

Plaid an FLAC 24/192 track and VOX said the output was 48k.

Don't know about iPhone 6 or 7 or next iPad generation.

After many reading about this matter I decided to buy the Dragonfly red with the lightning/USB 3 camera adapter to bypass the 3.5 jack connection and play the music at 96k.

It seems there are no little portable DACs that can reach the 192k output around.

Waiting to try it... Hope it will work all fine!

[jhwalker]

Hi.

I'm a bit late here but...

Upgraded iPad Air to iOS 10 in order to use the lightning/3.5 jack adapter.

Plaid an FLAC 24/192 track and VOX said the output was 48k.

Don't know about iPhone 6 or 7 or next iPad generation.

After many reading about this matter I decided to buy the Dragonfly red with the lightning/USB 3 camera adapter to bypass the 3.5 jack connection and play the music at 96k.

It seems there are no little portable DACs that can reach the 192k output around.

Waiting to try it... Hope it will work all fine!

 

HERUS - Resonessence Dacs - True Audio Clarity

 

Goes to 384k PCM and DSD128, but doesn't do MQA.

 

https://www.meridian-audio.com/en/products/dacs/usb-dacs/explorer/

 

Goes to 192k PCM and includes MQA, but requires external power.

[Donzauker]

Thanx for the hints.

Herus seems not available in Italy... anyway it's very expensive ... for me...

Explorer 2 was a choice but seems to work only on PC...

[jhwalker]

Thanx for the hints.

Herus seems not available in Italy... anyway it's very expensive ... for me...

Explorer 2 was a choice but seems to work only on PC...

 

The Explorer will work with iPhone / iPad *if* you use it with the new Apple Lightning to USB 3 Camera Adapter *and* you plug in a lightning power source to the adapter (e.g., high-capacity battery, iPhone charger, output from laptop USB, etc.). Just tested it to PCM 192k and confirmed MQA passthrough.

 

Not quite as portable as the DragonFly but it does work.

 

The first manufacturer that comes out with a small (i.e., dongle), high quality DAC that supports PCM 384k, DSD128 (256 would be even better) *and* MQA gets my money!