Overall Isolation - network, USB, and power

[gstew]

Thanks Greg, makes sense what you say and for the most part I would agree, but I can't help think that there is not a way to isolate those 0's and 1's from the PC via USB to rid of all electrical issues. If so then it shouldn't matter what one does on the streamer side of the issue. But for now it would appear that the networking Ethernet option has a leg up, with it's own dirty issues. I'll wait and hold down the fort here for a USB only option. Till then, I am placing my future upgrade on an isolation transformer to see what it can bring to the table, especially for the amp side of the equation. Getting that heavy pig here to Costa Rica should be fun. You guys keep firing away on the testing mods.

 

Mark

 

Mark,

 

I think the isolation transformer should be a good step up. Looking forward to your report.

 

OTOH, I think you underestimate how much electrical noise consumer-level computer gear makes compared to the purpose-built units and how much that noise impacts the SQ in our setups, even the much lower level of noise produced by the purpose-built gear.

 

Then there is the issue of SQ versus flexibility and convenience. There IS currently a way "to isolate those 0's and 1's from the PC" and get them to a DAC with very little electrical noise. It is called 'sneaker-net'.

 

I have an SDTrans384 SD Card player that I use as my digital reference source. It plays back WAV-only music off SD Cards no larger than 32Gb. No formats other than WAV, no networking, no upsampling, no fast-forward/reverse, no remote-control (though a rudimentary one is available), very limited output connections (I2S, S/PDIF, TOSLINK, PS Audio compliant I2S over HDMI cable only). Only plays multiple tracks (if that function is enabled) in the order they were written to the SD Card. Only commands available are select repeat mode, select directory, skip to next directory or file, play, stop.

 

VERY hair shirt!!! Heck, my turntable at least lets me pickup the needle and place it down later in a record for a 'fast forward' function!

 

Plus it is only available as a DIY board.

 

Because it does so little, it is VERY electrically quiet compared to any computer-processor based setup (it uses a very dumb, very low power FPGA, part of why it does so little). It is definitely my best digital source. A friend of mine has one in a tweaked out setup and says it bests his analog setup (which is a super-tweaked out setup too!).

 

This won't work for most people.

 

To get remote control, you add circuitry and functionality, which means more noise. To get additional connectivity options (such as USB out or in from a network-connected NAA), you add circuitry and functionality, which means more noise. To handle different music formats, you add circuitry and functionality, which means more noise. And on and on.

 

The purpose-built units along with an Ethernet input and a USB output hit the sweet spots in functionality AND do it at a level of performance unavailable using consumer-level HW. And as better chips and circuits become available for consumer-level HW, they will of course be adopted for purpose-built HW, keeping them ahead of consumer-level HW.

 

AND the people who really know this design space (people like John Swenson and Ted Smith, the PS Audio Directsteam DAC designer, among others) now are clearly saying that absolute isolation is not available and that all isolation introduces some problems of it's own. Isolation is a part of the solution, but quiet, purpose-designed HW is also going to be needed for the best SQ in a setup that most people will want to buy.

 

See my post a few above referencing a post by John Swenson on different types of isolation. Here is that post:

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f27-uptone-audio-sponsored/mystery-revealed-uptone-audio-ultracap%99-linear-power-supply-1-a-28609/index8.html#post560434

 

And while I was looking for it, I found this one that is also VERY relevant to the topic at hand:

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f26-sonore-sponsored/sonore-microrendu-power-supply-unit-observations-considerations-and-commentary-28480/index7.html#post578499

 

I'm not sure there is any way around this.

 

Greg in Mississippi

[austinpop]

The last few days, I've enjoyed hinting about some extended listening I needed to do this weekend. Well, here's the scoop.

 

After a recent discussion about powering an Aries Mini with 2 LPS-1s in series with a DIY connector, I had another kind offer from our very own @gstew, who apparently buys his LPS-1s like I buy my single malts - by the case! He offered to lend me 2 of his LPS-1s for the weekend, along with a home brew series cable. Well, who could refuse that offer!

 

A quick review my existing configuration. The picture is the same as I've used before. Recall that the optimal position for my own LPS-1 turned out to be at the downstream FMC before my Aries Mini.

 

 

With an extra pair of LPS-1's in hand, I tried a whole host of experiments, not all of which yielded meaningful results. In the interest of brevity, I'll highlight the key comparisons.

 

Since I, and many others, have already described what the SQ improvements due to the LPS-1 were, in this report I'll just talk about the magnitude of improvement in various configurations.

 

Does it work - powering the Aries Mini with 2 LPS-1s in series?

 

Short answer: yes, with both LPS-1s set to 7V, the series pair at 14V works just fine.

 

Longer answer - as cautioned by AURALiC, my Aries Mini has no attached drives, either USB or internal. If it had, I'd probably have overloaded the LPS-1s.

 

The LPS-1s did run hot, though. Quite hot. I don't have any thermal measurement tools, but it was about the same temperature to the touch as my Ayre Codex DAC-amp, which runs in Class A mode. Although - note - at no point did I ever see the LEDs not be green. Nor did I encounter any operational issues.

 

Comparison 1: Swap LPS-1s for my AURALiC LPS in my baseline configuration

 

This was an improvement, but fairly subtle. Certainly not justifying the cost of 2 LPS-1s.

 

But on analysis, given I already had an LPS-1 on the component preceding it, I figured the leakage loop was already broken, and perhaps I was only hearing a general LPS difference.

 

Remove all LPS-1 and rebaseline

 

I replaced my LPS-1 at the FMC with a Teralink X1/X2. Yup - expected losss in SQ. Pretty dramatic.

 

Now, add the series LPS-1s to power the Mini

 

Oh yeah, baby! All the goodness is back, about the same as with the FMC powered by an LPS-1. To me, this confirmed that one LPS-1 (or series pair) deployed in the loop comprising my FMC and Aries Mini gave me most of the improvement.

 

Now add another (my) LPS-1 to power the RUR

 

Remember, in my single LPS-1 experiments, this position didn't yield any big improvement, while powering the FMC did.

 

Not this time. Boo-ya! Another big bump up in SQ. If the first bump due to the series-LPS-1s on the Aries Mini was 100%, this was an additional 50%.

 

Then I reasoned - with LPS-1s on both the Mini and the RUR, was I already getting isolation to render the Intona unnecessary?

 

Remove the Intona

 

Wouldn't you know it - this made no degradation to the SQ.

 

Conclusions

 

I know in some of my earlier reports, I've had findings that diverged from what others have experienced. It was nice in this case to get pretty much the expected results!

 

A pair of LPS-1s in series works well to power the Aries Mini, and with better SQ than the AURALiC LPS. The amount of improvement will vary - from very small to dramatic - depending on what kind of leakage loop(s) may exist at that point in your chain. The only way to know is to try it.

 

The harder question for me is - should I spend ~$800 for another pair of LPS-1s for significant, but diminishing, returns? I'm not sure yet. True - I could defray some of the cost by selling my AURALiC LPS and my Intona. On the other hand, would my money be better spent on a SoTM SMS-200 or mRendu with a single LPS-1?

 

For now, I think I'll just wait. I know there are new ultracap PSes coming (Vinnie Rossi), and companies like Uptone, Sonore, and others are due for some new goodies.

 

BTW - the units are shipping back to the @gstew audio-industrial complex tomorrow afternoon, so if anyone has any amazingly insightful experiments I might try, I could do some quick tests in the morning.

 

Last call!

[ElviaCaprice]

Very good, another issue with using the LPS-1 is to prevent any AC leakage back into the chain. So replacing the glavanically isolated LPS-1 with a non galvanically isolate supply could cause problems.

Try this, Austinpop, replace the mini power supply with the LPS-1 combo, test sound for signature. Then pull the RUR, test sound signature (keep LPS-1 on mini). Then lastly pull both the RUR and Intona (keep LPS-1 on mini), test sound signature.

 

Keep everything else the same.

[austinpop]

Very good, another issue with using the LPS-1 is to prevent any AC leakage back into the chain. So replacing the glavanically isolated LPS-1 with a non galvanically isolate supply could cause problems.

Try this, Austinpop, replace the mini power supply with the LPS-1 combo, test sound for signature. Then pull the RUR, test sound signature (keep LPS-1 on mini). Then lastly pull both the RUR and Intona (keep LPS-1 on mini), test sound signature.

 

Keep everything else the same.

 

Good thinking! But I already tried that.

 

It turns out the RUR definitely improves the SQ, even when powered with an el cheapo LPS. But powered by another LPS-1, I got the 2nd SQ bump I mentioned.

[ElviaCaprice]

Good thinking! But I already tried that.

 

It turns out the RUR definitely improves the SQ, even when powered with an el cheapo LPS. But powered by another LPS-1, I got the 2nd SQ bump I mentioned.

 

Did you get the DAC right next to the mR? Just like you would with a Regen?

[austinpop]

Did you get the DAC right next to the mR? Just like you would with a Regen?

 

Not sure what you're referring to? I don't have an mR. Nor a Regen.

 

Once again - just running straight from the Aries Mini (powered by series LPS-1s) to the DAC without the RUR was a reduction in SQ. The RUR always improves SQ - much more so when powered by its own LPS-1.

 

Clearer now?

[ElviaCaprice]

Not sure what you're referring to? I don't have an mR. Nor a Regen.

 

Once again - just running straight from the Aries Mini (powered by series LPS-1s) to the DAC without the RUR was a reduction in SQ. The RUR always improves SQ - much more so when powered by its own LPS-1.

 

Clearer now?

 

It's late, sorry. Yeah, with the mini it would be different. Great. Thanks for the testing.

[scan80269]

@austinpop, thanks for this latest update!

 

Do you have an EMO EN-70HD Ethernet isolator yet? Just curious as to what SQ change you may hear if you insert one EN-70HD between your downstream FMC and Aries Mini.

[kiat]

@austinpop, thanks for this latest update!

 

Do you have an EMO EN-70HD Ethernet isolator yet? Just curious as to what SQ change you may hear if you insert one EN-70HD between your downstream FMC and Aries Mini.

 

I'm also interested in knowing about this too.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[GUTB]

Okay guys, question about power and EMI management.

 

1. I have a Furutech GTX-D NFC® outlet. I have my DAC plugged into it using a Lessloss Original and a Class A head amp plugged into the other recepticle using an Audio Sensability Statement cable (basically copper shielded OCC copper, Furutech plugs and cryo). The other outlet on the circuit has a Tripp Lite Isobar which is an 8-port surge protector that has filters installed which supposedly block noise. My main PC, audio server and other electronics are plugged into the Tripp Lite. Should I move the Tripp Lite to another circuit? Should I move my audio server off it (it currently is using a fanless PSU)? Should I keep my DAC and amp circuit pure -- at what point will it matter?

 

2. I recently introduced a Class D amp to the system. Should I keep its SMPS off the "audio" circuit? Do I keep it on the pure circuit but filter it?

 

3. I have an LKS I2S bridge running off a USB battery pack that I can plug into the audio server to charge. I read someone say that these still introduce noise by doing 3.3V conversion, true? Is a LPS or ultra cap the way to go?

 

4. I try to air gap my DAC, amps, and power supplies by putting on different shelves. Am I really accomplishing much by doing that?

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

[austinpop]

@austinpop, thanks for this latest update!

 

Do you have an EMO EN-70HD Ethernet isolator yet? Just curious as to what SQ change you may hear if you insert one EN-70HD between your downstream FMC and Aries Mini.

 

No, not yet.

 

I seem to to recall someone was waiting to compare Etalon with the Emo, so I wanted to wait and see what came out of that.

 

Sorry!

[Cornan]

No, not yet.

 

I seem to to recall someone was waiting to compare Etalon with the Emo, so I wanted to wait and see what came out of that.

 

Sorry!

Here you go. A report from Al Jones who have tried all three of them! ?

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/showthread.php?p=598020

 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[tboooe]

 

 

Comparison 1: Swap LPS-1s for my AURALiC LPS in my baseline configuration

 

This was an improvement, but fairly subtle. Certainly not justifying the cost of 2 LPS-1s.

 

Now, add the series LPS-1s to power the Mini

 

Oh yeah, baby! All the goodness is back, about the same as with the FMC powered by an LPS-1. To me, this confirmed that one LPS-1 (or series pair) deployed in the loop comprising my FMC and Aries Mini gave me most of the improvement.

 

@austinpop, thank you for this. I am a little confused about these comments (sorry for being dense, its a little early). So are you saying adding LPS-1 to the Mini did or did not lead to improvement?

 

BTW. I am hoping that Uptone comes up with a larger capacity LPS-1.

[austinpop]

@austinpop, thank you for this. I am a little confused about these comments (sorry for being dense, its a little early). So are you saying adding LPS-1 to the Mini did or did not lead to improvement?

 

BTW. I am hoping that Uptone comes up with a larger capacity LPS-1.

 

It did, but like all comparisons, the magnitude of improvement depends on the context.

 

The point I was trying to make was that the LPS-1 improvement was subtle when a leakage loop at that location in the chain was already controlled.

 

The improvement was dramatic when it wasn't.

 

Does that clarify?

[tboooe]

It did, but like all comparisons, the magnitude of improvement depends on the context.

 

The point I was trying to make was that the LPS-1 improvement was subtle when a leakage loop at that location in the chain was already controlled.

 

The improvement was dramatic when it wasn't.

 

Does that clarify?

 

Got it. i am just surprised that replacing the Mini power supply (with a LPS-1 already powering the FMC) did not really add much. Isnt there leakage due to the Aries standard power supply?

 

This got me thinking, in my setup, I was considering adding an LPS-1 (or battery power) to my FMC, SU-1 usb converter, and NAA (PC or microrendu). Your experiment may have saved me some serious money. Maybe all I need to do is buy 1 LPS-1 and power the FMC?

[austinpop]

Got it. i am just surprised that replacing the Mini power supply (with a LPS-1 already powering the FMC) did not really add much. Isnt there leakage due to the Aries standard power supply?

 

This got me thinking, in my setup, I was considering adding an LPS-1 (or battery power) to my FMC, SU-1 usb converter, and NAA (PC or microrendu). Your experiment may have saved me some serious money. Maybe all I need to do is buy 1 LPS-1 and power the FMC?

 

Sadly, it's not that easy - or predictive. No one - at least, as yet - can look at a system and tell you definitively - this is where your LPS-1(s) should go. In fact, Alex himself had predicted my biggest bang for the buck with my LPS-1 would come from powering the RUR. I didn't even think to try it on the FMC - who puts a $400 PS on a $40 component! - until @scan80269 suggested it!

 

The only advice I can provide is to suggest looking at your system in terms of closed loops. In my system, something like this:

 

 

Any such loop is a candidate for isolation, including using an LPS-1.

 

Maybe @Superdad and @JohnSwenson have figured out a more predictive algorithm for doing this.

[jim1961]

Accessory – iPower

 

iFi 5V ps. Anyone try these? They claim really low noise. Was thinking of powering my WD 2TB usb hdd with it via a Belkin Hub.

 

Thoughts?

[tboooe]

Sadly, it's not that easy - or predictive. No one - at least, as yet - can look at a system and tell you definitively - this is where your LPS-1(s) should go. In fact, Alex himself had predicted my biggest bang for the buck with my LPS-1 would come from powering the RUR. I didn't even think to try it on the FMC - who puts a $400 PS on a $40 component! - until @scan80269 suggested it!

 

The only advice I can provide is to suggest looking at your system in terms of closed loops. In my system, something like this:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]32022[/ATTACH]

 

Any such loop is a candidate for isolation, including using an LPS-1.

 

Maybe @Superdad and @JohnSwenson have figured out a more predictive algorithm for doing this.

Makes sense. Based on that diagram I would say my SU-1 USB converter is also a good candidate for the LPS-1 since its also connected to my NAA PC. I wonder if Uptone is considering making an LPS-1 version with multiple outputs??

[austinpop]

Makes sense. Based on that diagram I would say my SU-1 USB converter is also a good candidate for the LPS-1 since its also connected to my NAA PC. I wonder if Uptone is considering making an LPS-1 version with multiple outputs??

 

Multiple outputs are easy - just use a Y-cable like this:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007Q8IKRE

 

The real issue is to take care that the current demands of both devices does not exceed 1 Amp.

[Foggie]

Ordered the ClearFog base version and waiting for it to arrive -- need to be sure a version of Linux runs on it that supports NAA/networkaudiod.

 

It is different than the CuBox. Uses a Marvell Armada A388 SoC chip.

 

Also for clarification, the clearfog info states the SFP modules must must conform to "I2C fast mode" (assuming on both ends) - does this imply the "typical" 1GB SFP modules will not work?

[austinpop]

I've been taking a break from tweaks for a few days to just listen and enjoy some music. Especially since the MQA Tidal release, I've been exploring Masters albums and discovering all kinds of old and new favorites.

 

But tonight I finally deployed the hard adapters to see what they would add. Me likee!

 

First this little baby, to replace the output cable from my LPS-1 to my FMC:

 

Valley Enterprises[emoji768] 2.1mm x 5.5mm DC CCTV Power Coupler Male to Male https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00B1JLN28

 

And then this one replaces my Cardas Clear 2m USB between my Intona and RUR:

 

L.L. USB Type A Male to USB Type B Male Adapter, 2 pack https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00PVAJTPG

 

That was easy. Sounds better. Just do it!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[jabbr]

Also for clarification, the clearfog info states the SFP modules must must conform to "I2C fast mode" (assuming on both ends) - does this imply the "typical" 1GB SFP modules will not work?

 

I think typical SFP modules should use I2C at the copper end i.e. that how the module communicates with the board its plugged into. Don't see why that would be necessarily also on the other side of the fiberoptic cable. Probably would work with "typical" modules but I haven't yet had the opportunity to test.

[Foggie]

I think typical SFP modules should use I2C at the copper end i.e. that how the module communicates with the board its plugged into. Don't see why that would be necessarily also on the other side of the fiberoptic cable. Probably would work with "typical" modules but I haven't yet had the opportunity to test.

Ok, thanks. I'm looking forward to your findings.

[jim1961]

Tape over pin 1 first to test. I would also eliminate the shield and make the ground capable of being cut after handshake. Not sure if you can cut the ground on an HDD and still be able to communicate properly with the streamer? If you could then this would go a long ways to isolating the external HDD from the streamer.

 

Have done my rounds of experimentation and wanted to report what I have discovered.

 

Connections:

-The 5V (pin 1) must be connected in order to scan USB by Auralic Aries.

 

-Once scanned however, I can unmount (via lightning) the drive, tape over pin 1, and remount it. Then Files play fine.

 

-Taping over pins 1 & 4 wouldnt work in any sequence or configuration.

 

Sound Quality:

Option 1) USB hdd-> Aries

Option 2) USB hdd-> Jitterbug -> Aries

Option 3) USB hdd-> Hub -> Aries

Option 4) USB hdd-> Hub -> Jitterbug -> Aries

Option 5) USB hdd-> Hub -> Pin 1 taped ->Jitterbug -> Aries

 

Option 1 - The worst SQ of the bunch. Audible high frequency artifacts present

Option 2 - Didnt work. Couldnt get the hdd to mount.

Option 3 - Better SQ than 1

Option 4 - Better still

Option 5 - The best of the bunch. All of the high frequency artifacts gone by this point.

[Cornan]

One 100Base-TX (pin 1/2 & 3/6 on a distance) ethernet cable with silver wires finished.

 

 

One more to go! ?

 

Slowly coming closer to my FMC experiments. Just a pity that I got a message that the delivery of my ordered Digitus OM4 fiber cable is further delayed! ?

 

 

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