William Lowe of Audioquest places both feet in his mouth

[17629v2]

That is basically what Dennis is saying in post 103, and I doubt that several other of the "usual suspects" would be in disagreement with those sentiments either.

 

When I originally brought that up earlier, I was going by what BJ's was saying on their website. Its in the section dealing with "exotic" methods and materials.

[17629v2]

I certainly think there is ample information to back a position that the claims in AQ's case is a shell game.

 

Maybe. Anyone can make a case out of just about anything. I'm not saying you can't, I just see 2 issues. First, is they have a patent on the dbs system. Second, they usually get rave reviews from all the industry publications, and AQ customers seem to be very happy with the products. There's at least 5 or 6 gen dbs cables. So if the industry, along with product owners are not complaining, who is? The only people I see complaining, are people that don't own the AQ products in question. Its not like you can get your money back for something.

 

Also, I kept forgetting to ask you this yesterday. But why is it that Bill Lowe is at the end of your criticism, but not Richard Vandersteen? It seems like one is getting a free pass while the other isn't.

[plissken]

Also, I kept forgetting to ask you this yesterday. But why is it that Bill Lowe is at the end of your criticism, but not Richard Vandersteen? It seems like one is getting a free pass while the other isn't.

 

Not enough time?

 

In regards to AQ what I really picked up on was the marketing tidbit about DBS and they have TOSLink in the mix.

 

Should I just ignore that?

 

The DBS on an Ethernet cable is really bunk. So based on this I just don't trust them as an outfit.

 

BTW someone got a patent on how to swing on a swing set. Just saying.

[esldude]

So if the industry, along with product owners are not complaining, who is? The only people I see complaining, are people that don't own the AQ products in question. Its not like you can get your money back for something.

 

But I do own AQ products. In fact I used a couple in the posted files of the poll awhile back.

 

It crossed my mind before to record using AQ interconnect and generic junk and let people tell me which was which. All options open both listening and looking at measurements if people would suggest which they needed. Do you think recording music with junky IC's and some good AQ IC's would sound different enough you could hear the difference?

[17629v2]

But I do own AQ products. In fact I used a couple in the posted files of the poll awhile back.

 

It crossed my mind before to record using AQ interconnect and generic junk and let people tell me which was which. All options open both listening and looking at measurements if people would suggest which they needed. Do you think recording music with junky IC's and some good AQ IC's would sound different enough you could hear the difference?

 

As with everything in audio, it depends.

[17629v2]

Not enough time?

 

In regards to AQ what I really picked up on was the marketing tidbit about DBS and they have TOSLink in the mix.

 

Should I just ignore that?

 

The DBS on an Ethernet cable is really bunk. So based on this I just don't trust them as an outfit.

 

BTW someone got a patent on how to swing on a swing set. Just saying.

 

I'm asking legit questions. Just because someone gets a patent on how to swing on a swing set, doesn't make all other patents worthless. Why not judge the one we're talking about here based on its own merits and let someone else worry about the swing set?

 

For toslink and ethernet, I can't say you're right or wrong. I haven't tried either. I thought we were talking about speaker cable and IC's. So are you saying dbs works as claimed on those products and that's why you don't include Vandersteen? If so, that makes sense.

[esldude]

As with everything in audio, it depends.

 

Upon what does it depend? Is your system special in that BJ won't do as it obviously is inferior to AQ, yet elsewhere there is no difference?

[plissken]

For toslink and ethernet, I can't say you're right or wrong. I haven't tried either. I thought we were talking about speaker cable and IC's. So are you saying dbs works as claimed on those products and that's why you don't include Vandersteen? If so, that makes sense.

 

Just because someone gets a patent on how to swing on a swing set, doesn't make all other patents worthless.

 

It also doesn't make patents worth something. You were making an appeal to authority and I'm pointing out that not all patents do something.

 

We are talking about the application of technology to audio reproduction where cables are concerned.

 

When you start hooking up active components to passive cables, are they still technically cables or another class of product?

[17629v2]

Upon what does it depend? Is your system special in that BJ won't do as it obviously is inferior to AQ, yet elsewhere there is no difference?

 

I wouldn't say that my system is special, but it definitely has more resolution than your average system. Not only that, I just took a look at your system. I can't imagine you not being able to hear these differences as well. Its been quite a while, but AQ actually used Sound Lab speakers to demo their cables at SCES.

 

I almost forgot. My issue with BJ's cable isn't that its good or bad. Just different. If you go through the info on their web site, they claim that you will hear no difference in sound if you compare them to more expensive cables. I disagree, because when I tried them in my system, there was clearly an audible difference.

[Sal1950]

 

I almost forgot. My issue with BJ's cable isn't that its good or bad. Just different. If you go through the info on their web site, they claim that you will hear no difference in sound if you compare them to more expensive cables. I disagree, because when I tried them in my system, there was clearly an audible difference.

You'll only hear a difference if your cables are introducing a FR abnormality or RFI/EMI interference do poor LRC or shielding design. If you like using poor designs as tone controls in your system have at it.

[Keith_W]

You'll only hear a difference if your cables are introducing a FR abnormality or RFI/EMI interference do poor LRC or shielding design. If you like using poor designs as tone controls in your system have at it.

 

We can also paraphrase thus. We can hear a difference, because YOUR cables are introducing a FR abnormality or RFI/EMI interference due to poor LRC or shielding design. Ours don't.

[esldude]

I wouldn't say that my system is special, but it definitely has more resolution than your average system. Not only that, I just took a look at your system. I can't imagine you not being able to hear these differences as well. Its been quite a while, but AQ actually used Sound Lab speakers to demo their cables at SCES.

 

I almost forgot. My issue with BJ's cable isn't that its good or bad. Just different. If you go through the info on their web site, they claim that you will hear no difference in sound if you compare them to more expensive cables. I disagree, because when I tried them in my system, there was clearly an audible difference.

 

So have you ever tried this unsighted? Looking at my system should give you pause alright. It is a highly resolving system.

[r_w]

However you look at it, this statement seems perfectly fair and reasonable. I hear differences in wire and sometimes they are not so subtle.

 

It's obviously a good idea to give your lovely components the nicest connection you can, by the means that suits you best... nobody should be criticised for liking the effect cables have in their system... what isn't wise is just to throw big money at wire companies based solely on their marketing hype.

 

One example is:

You can buy a big money Ethernet cable that will unlikely ever get close to the performance of optical isolation using FMCs with an ultra short run of bog standard CAT6 at each end and a cheap LPS at the server end - doable for miles less than some CAT cables. In this respect, anyone who has top dollar Ethernet cables but hasn't also gone down the optical isolation route has almost certainly gone about it the wrong way.

 

 

 

We can also paraphrase thus. We can hear a difference, because YOUR cables are introducing a FR abnormality or RFI/EMI interference due to poor LRC or shielding design. Ours don't.

[17629v2]

So have you ever tried this unsighted? Looking at my system should give you pause alright. It is a highly resolving system.

 

Yes. I've done some very thorough blind testing of cables. I don't have time now, but I'll post tomorrow with all the details.

[17629v2]

You'll only hear a difference if your cables are introducing a FR abnormality or RFI/EMI interference do poor LRC or shielding design. If you like using poor designs as tone controls in your system have at it.

 

Like I said before Sal, you have no idea what you're talking about. I don't know why you keep sticking your nose into other peoples systems, making comments on things you can't possibly know. Lets have a look at your system for a change. The first thought that comes to mind is a train wreck. If that's the best you can do, you're in no position to lecture anyone about anything related to audio. Of course you won't hear differences in cables. If I had your system, I would I would buy BJ's too. Its the right tool for the job.

 

Why don't you let us help you for a change? If we can help you get a system up and running, you will have no problem hearing the differences between cables.

[Sal1950]

Like I said before Sal, you have no idea what you're talking about. I don't know why you keep sticking your nose into other peoples systems, making comments on things you can't possibly know. Lets have a look at your system for a change. The first thought that comes to mind is a train wreck. If that's the best you can do, you're in no position to lecture anyone about anything related to audio. Of course you won't hear differences in cables. If I had your system, I would I would buy BJ's too. Its the right tool for the job.

 

Why don't you let us help you for a change? If we can help you get a system up and running, you will have no problem hearing the differences between cables.

Sad that you can't seem to understand basic electrical theory.

Doesn't look like anyone can help you with that shortcoming.

[christopher3393]

Except in this case every double-blind test provides evidence in favor of the "wildly inflated claim."

 

Hi Bill,

 

Wondering what your references are for this claim and if you would want to qualify it in some way. You may very well be correct, but as it is this can be read as a very broad claim.

[Teresa]

…Do people listening to their system that sounds better than it did yesterday with no apparent change start trying to figure out the mystery improvement?

 

I can’t speak for others but I don’t as I am thrilled when my music sounds better than expected. It’s when my music doesn’t sound right or unpleasant I go on a hunt to discover the problem and hopefully correct it.

 

…Great then you are on the record claiming the way AQ demo's their cables to showcase differences is snake oil.

 

On the 301 post: I don't think it was unsatisfactory. I believe it was pointed out that is how AQ RJE with DBS and a $13 RJE cable would/could be tested out.

 

That is Mr. Low defined how they test and that it was ok with the addition of a curtain? Correct me if I'm not reading it right.

 

I never said their demos were snake oil, I said for me they likely would not be persuasive, but neither would your alternative. Because it takes two weeks being connected to the speakers for the DBS system to offer its full performance. I would need two weeks to plug them in, then a week to listen to them with the batteries, then take the batteries out, then wait two weeks for the discharge, and then listen a week with the batteries out and then just to make sure put the batteries back in and wait two weeks and then listen for a week again with the batteries in. That would take a minimum of 9 weeks, longer than anyone’s satisfaction guarantee. So that means I will never have an opinion of the DBS system as I will never try it and I firmly believe before making any comments (especially disparaging) one must actually try the product in their system first. Which you and I have not done.

 

You may not be reading it right. Mr. Low said in post 301: “Pretty much every day, somewhere in the world, a new audience hears a run through of cable comparisons in which a single variable is changed at a time, including solid vs. stranded, parallel vs. spiraled, metal-only change, and the same model of cable with and without DBS.”

 

You notice he said “changed” which to me implies unplugging one and plugging in the other as he made no mention of a switch box. Whereas your blind test would use a switch box. My friend, audio designer John Curl told me the wiring and switching components inside a typical ABX box is much poorer than the items plugged into them to be tested, and that is why most ABX tests are not able to reveal differences between two different sounding items. That could be one of the reasons he declined.

 

If I read you correctly, what you found unsatisfactory was it not being blind with switching back and forth in a controlled manner you approve of.

 

Google returns the following definition for "snake oil":

 

"a product, policy, etc. of little real worth or value that is promoted as the solution to a problem"

 

Those who suggest that one needs nothing better than BJC cables seem to me to be doing exactly this.

 

The other definition Google returns "snake oil":

 

"a substance with no real medicinal value sold as a remedy for all diseases."

 

Again I see a great parallel to how BJC cables are promoted by their fans. They're pitched as a perfect solution, with nothing better needed.

 

At least snake oil remedies didn't do harm. The BJC interconnect I tried in my system did much harm. I wouldn't want to listen to my system if I had to use that stuff.

 

Thanks, I just checked my Mac dictionary and it defines snake oil the same way.

 

Then you simply look at the price tag and KNOW it must be better.

So without any sort of empirical evidence in the form of measurement or bias controlled blind listening, you hear exactly what you believe you should. The very definition of a snake oil salesman's desired customer base. LOL.

 

Then you simply look at the price tag and KNOW it must be better. So without any sort of empirical evidence in the form of measurement or bias controlled blind listening, you hear exactly what you believe you should. The very definition of a snake oil salesman's desired customer base. LOL.

 

Cable manufacturers have to justify the price of their products, most have websites that do this. Some more expensive ones for example use silver instead of copper, solid silver connecters instead of gold plated ones, superior insulation, etc. These things may or may not make a difference, I will never know as I’m not rich. Who in their right mind would buy anything just because it costs more?

 

None of which requires grotesquely expensive cables to fix. They don't fix it any better than the BJC offerings.

 

How do you know this? Have you tried every cable in existence? It is better to not be so absolutist, it makes you look bad.

 

…You really should break the cables in on the system you will use to do the evaluation. Aside from that, why would you want someone else to do the listening for you? If its your system, the only opinion that matters is yours. If you can't tell the difference, its perfectly OK. That's why its so important we listen. Anything can happen. Regardless of what the measurements say, its foolish to spend money on products that don't yield an improvement.

 

Thanks, I am in total agreement with this.

 

…I insist on nothing and I ask for no help. I'm not trying to be mean, its just a simple fact. I'm pretty clear in how I approach equipment selection. I choose components based on the results I get. If a piece performs well, I keep it. If not, I get rid of it. I see no logic in doing things any other way. This is what works for me.

 

Bravo! I too believe audio purchases are a personal matter. If I don’t like how something sounds in my system, I return it for a full money-back satisfaction guarantee. But if someone else likes what I didn’t like I’m fine with that too.

 

You'll only hear a difference if your cables are introducing a FR abnormality or RFI/EMI interference do poor LRC or shielding design. If you like using poor designs as tone controls in your system have at it.

 

We can also paraphrase thus. We can hear a difference, because YOUR cables are introducing a FR abnormality or RFI/EMI interference due to poor LRC or shielding design. Ours don't.

 

However you look at it, this statement seems perfectly fair and reasonable. I hear differences in wire and sometimes they are not so subtle.

 

It's obviously a good idea to give your lovely components the nicest connection you can, by the means that suits you best... nobody should be criticized for liking the effect cables have in their system... what isn't wise is just to throw big money at wire companies based solely on their marketing hype…

 

IMHO if any cable is poorly made, it would likely be the cheap one made with low quality materials rather than one made with high quality materials. I think Keith is closer to the truth than Sal.

 

Why does the anti-cable fetishists get their panties in a knot each time a cable companies does something?

 

Just get of your high horse and let it be.

 

Good advise. If one likes their music though their cables, I have a suggestion. Those with Blue Jeans cables be happy, those with other cables be happy. I bought my Monster Cables before Blue Jeans Cable existed, indeed before the civilian internet existed, maybe even before the government internet existed. I don’t have a problem with either cable group as long as their don’t try to convert others to their beliefs.

 

Finally, William E. Low has no "e" in his last name.

[17629v2]

Sad that you can't seem to understand basic electrical theory.

Doesn't look like anyone can help you with that shortcoming.

 

I don't want or need your help. Why would I take advice from someone who doesn't know their ass from their elbow when it comes to audio equipment? Why don't you find someone that actually wants your help? With me, you're just wasting your time. I don't know how many times I have to say this, but I make my own decisions based on how I do things. That's all there is to it. If you like to do things differently, that's fine. I don't keep telling you that you need to do things my way, do I?

[plissken]

I can’t speak for others but I don’t as I am thrilled when my music sounds better than expected. It’s when my music doesn’t sound right or unpleasant I go on a hunt to discover the problem and hopefully correct it.

 

Just so I understand:

 

If it sounds great one day: It's providence

 

If it sounds bad one day: Something is wrong with the gear

[r_w]

For me, even though the entire source and control is on a mains regerator, the crossovers & amps are not (direct to the wall) and I think mains quality fluctuation is primarily responsible for the very few days that my system sounds a bit 'off' - or perhaps the blame lies in the crossovers & amps PSUs inability to deal with said poor mains.

 

In respect of this thread, don't think I would find myself thinking "one of my cables is behaving badly today" unless there was an obvious connection issue - however I have on many occaisions heard quite noticable differences with cables.

 

One question might be on the laws of electricity point of view is "Do we actually know everything there is to know about electricity and how it behaves?"... if the answer is yes then someone must know how to measure soundstage; width, height, depth... and musical fuidity / smoothness?

 

Not trying to be a smart ass, just saying that if this stuff is really known, sharing this knowledge would make snake oil far harder to pedal.

 

If it sounds bad one day: Something is wrong with the gear

[Teresa]

Just so I understand:

 

If it sounds great one day: It's providence

 

If it sounds bad one day: Something is wrong with the gear

 

All I'm saying is I can't enjoy music when my stereo doesn’t sound right or sounds unpleasant, if I can't find the problem I just watch HDTV or a movie and try music again the next day. If it sounds great I'm likely to listen to music for many, many happy hours.

[christopher3393]

What I have learned in the past few years is that the most important component in any complete audio system is also the one most likely to be the chief source of anomalies.

 

[Sal1950]

All I'm saying is I can't enjoy music when my stereo doesn’t sound right or sounds unpleasant, if I can't find the problem I just watch HDTV or a movie and try music again the next day. If it sounds great I'm likely to listen to music for many, many happy hours.

 

No disrespect meant but have you considered it may be your physical condition or the meds your taking affecting what your hear or your perception of what you hear? I could accept that explanation from you.

For @17629v2 unfortunately there's no excuse that I'm aware of. LOL

[sandyk]

No disrespect meant but have you considered it may be your physical condition or the meds your taking affecting what your hear or your perception of what you hear? I could accept that explanation from you.

For @17629v2 unfortunately there's no excuse that I'm aware of. LOL

 

How did you come to understand Basic Electrical Theory ?

By "hot wiring" cars ?