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William Lowe of Audioquest places both feet in his mouth


plissken

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+1

 

The term "snake oil" refers to inflated marketing promises about what a product does.

 

The only promises that BJC makes is that their cables are well made using quality components.

 

They are well engineered cables that do the job well, without making outrageous claims.

IIRC, they use good quality Belden cable.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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The term "snake oil" refers to inflated marketing promises about what a product does.

 

The only promises that BJC makes is that their cables are well made using quality components.

 

The idea one needs nothing better than the cables BJC sells strikes me as a wildly inflated claim. I see that more like the pitch a snake oil salesman would make.

 

But you're right, it's not BJC making these claims.

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

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... First thing I do is get out my tape measure because 9 times out of 10, one of my speakers has moved by 1/8th to 1/16th of an inch. But there have been many other things that have sabotaged the sound of my system. ...

 

Would one of those things be misalignment of the clamp you use to hold your head in exactly the right position in relation to your speakers?

"People hear what they see." - Doris Day

The forum would be a much better place if everyone were less convinced of how right they were.

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"If a company makes no claims of audio salvation, then, there cannot be snake oil.

Thank you for your interest in audio truth."

 

If we're looking for the truth, can you point out 1 audio company, cable or otherwise that claims audio salvation? I've never seen any company make such a claim.

 

"With respect, you are the only person on the face of the earth who thinks that Blue Jeans Cable products have snake oil attributes. Please understand that on this forum the term "snake oil" pertains to outragous claims which some companies make concerning their products."

 

I say snake oil products are ones that don't live up to the claims that the manufacturer makes about they're products performance.

 

Here's a link to BJ's web site. Its a bit much to cut and paste.

 

https://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/exoticmaterials.htm

 

According to BJ's claims, cables with all of this special engineering and materials won't sound any better than the cables they sell. I swapped out my "exotic" cables with some BJ's, and the only thing I can tell you is that a deaf person can hear the difference. It was clearly audible. No going back and forth to maybe hear something. My system took an immediate and definite hit in SQ.

 

BJ's Cable clearly didn't work as advertised, so I label it snake oil. Just because the cables are cheap doesn't get them off the hook. They didn't deliver on their promises, and that's what matters. To say a $20 or $30 cable is the equal to one for several hundred, or even thousand, is an outrageous claim. Its common sense. You get what you pay for. The sad part here, is that new audiophiles that get sucked into the BJ's philosophy, may never get to hear what a higher quality product sounds like.

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According to BJ's claims, cables with all of this special engineering and materials won't sound any better than the cables they sell. I swapped out my "exotic" cables with some BJ's, and the only thing I can tell you is that a deaf person can hear the difference. It was clearly audible. No going back and forth to maybe hear something. My system took an immediate and definite hit in SQ.

 

BJ's Cable clearly didn't work as advertised, so I label it snake oil. Just because the cables are cheap doesn't get them off the hook. They didn't deliver on their promises, and that's what matters. To say a $20 or $30 cable is the equal to one for several hundred, or even thousand, is an outrageous claim. Its common sense. You get what you pay for. The sad part here, is that new audiophiles that get sucked into the BJ's philosophy, may never get to hear what a higher quality product sounds like.

 

What is your setup like? What BJC cables did you try?

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"If a company makes no claims of audio salvation, then, there cannot be snake oil.

Thank you for your interest in audio truth."

 

If we're looking for the truth, can you point out 1 audio company, cable or otherwise that claims audio salvation? I've never seen any company make such a claim.

 

"With respect, you are the only person on the face of the earth who thinks that Blue Jeans Cable products have snake oil attributes. Please understand that on this forum the term "snake oil" pertains to outragous claims which some companies make concerning their products."

 

I say snake oil products are ones that don't live up to the claims that the manufacturer makes about they're products performance.

 

Here's a link to BJ's web site. Its a bit much to cut and paste.

 

https://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/exoticmaterials.htm

 

According to BJ's claims, cables with all of this special engineering and materials won't sound any better than the cables they sell. I swapped out my "exotic" cables with some BJ's, and the only thing I can tell you is that a deaf person can hear the difference. It was clearly audible. No going back and forth to maybe hear something. My system took an immediate and definite hit in SQ.

 

BJ's Cable clearly didn't work as advertised, so I label it snake oil. Just because the cables are cheap doesn't get them off the hook. They didn't deliver on their promises, and that's what matters. To say a $20 or $30 cable is the equal to one for several hundred, or even thousand, is an outrageous claim. Its common sense. You get what you pay for. The sad part here, is that new audiophiles that get sucked into the BJ's philosophy, may never get to hear what a higher quality product sounds like.

hmm...

 

was it a blind test or did you always know which cables were in use?

 

v

 

Sent from my SM-N920T using Computer Audiophile mobile app

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hmm...

 

was it a blind test or did you always know which cables were in use?

 

v

 

Sent from my SM-N920T using Computer Audiophile mobile app

Oh you didn't ask that did you? So early to deploy the kryptonite.

 

He already said no going back and forth. The differences were so obvious you'd have to be deaf to miss it. Or perhaps being blind would have done the trick?

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Computer Audiophile mobile app

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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Oh you didn't ask that did you? So early to deploy the kryptonite.

 

He already said no going back and forth. The differences were so obvious you'd have to be deaf to miss it. Or perhaps being blind would have done the trick?

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Computer Audiophile mobile app

it's a very innocent question...

 

v

 

Sent from my SM-P600 using Computer Audiophile mobile app

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Oh you didn't ask that did you? So early to deploy the kryptonite.

A knockout blow ? Not bloody likely !

Dream on Dennis !

Not all DACs , Preamps etc. have the same output impedance, and there may very well be other cables that are a better match in some cases.

Even when using a 1M long interconnect, you can vary the sound balance noticeably by simply changing the value of the series output resistors. It's easy to try this in some gear just by trying various values such as 47, 75, 100 and 120ohms.

These resistors are often also used for stability purposes with some output I.C.s (LME49710,LM4562 etc.) which don't like seeing too high a cable capacitance.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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From the LME49710 (NS) Data Sheet for example :

"The Audio Operational Amplifier achieves outstanding AC performance while driving complex loads with values as high as 100pF"

 

A Belden RG59 cable, for example.is quoted at 67.2605 pF/M

 

From T.I. Data Sheet:

See Application Hints

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lme49710.pdf

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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People, nothing here makes sense. First if you're not level matching very carefully you can't make accurate cable comparisons. Second is the you get what you pay for. Almost never true in audio cables. There are good reasons why different specifications change the sound in cables but there don't seem to any reasons to spend a lot of money to do it.

 

My last test of Ethernet cables included expensive AudioQuest cables. You can easily locate my findings punch up AudioQuest, Wikipedia, References #15, first comment. Should tell you why have doubts about exotic cables. As is the testing I did in the eighties and nineties on speaker cables and interconnects. You can't change the laws of physics.

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Oh you didn't ask that did you? So early to deploy the kryptonite.

 

He already said no going back and forth. The differences were so obvious you'd have to be deaf to miss it. Or perhaps being blind would have done the trick?

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Computer Audiophile mobile app

 

You have it right. I've conducted many blind tests over the years, but in this case the difference was large enough that it wasn't necessary.

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What is your setup like? What BJC cables did you try?

 

I put the BJ's in my small system. It doesn't have the same level of detail as my main system, so its more of a challenge to hear differences with things like cables. Wadia 302, Tara The 2 IC, VAC 30/30 MK3, Tara The 2 speaker cables, Wilson Cub S2's. For power cords, both components have ESP Essence's. The amp gets plugged into the wall, and the CD player goes into a Furutech line conditioner. Its simple, but its a fun system to listen to.

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"Even when using a 1M long interconnect, you can vary the sound balance noticeably by simply changing the value of the series output resistors. It's easy to try this in some gear just by trying various values such as 47, 75, 100 and 120ohms."

 

Are you talking about those in line resistors? The ones that go right on the rca connector.

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While Mogami, Canare, Belden and some others publish rather robust spec's and performance characteristics of their cables, do any Audiophile outfits do the same?

 

Is this what you're talking about?

 

[h=4]Single Ended[/h]

(Cp) parallel capacitance: 78 pF / meter

 

(Ls) series inductance: 0.385 uH / meter

 

(Rdc) dc loop resistance: 0.037 Ohm / meter Balanced

 

Balanced

(Cp) parallel capacitance: 33.1 pF / meter

 

(Ls) series inductance: 1.13 uH / meter

 

(Rdc) dc loop resistance: 0.081 Ohm / meter

 

(Kimber Hero IC)

 

 

 

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"Even when using a 1M long interconnect, you can vary the sound balance noticeably by simply changing the value of the series output resistors. It's easy to try this in some gear just by trying various values such as 47, 75, 100 and 120ohms."

 

Are you talking about those in line resistors? The ones that go right on the rca connector.

 

No, I am talking about the series output resistors that are mounted on the PCB just before it connects to the RCA Output sockets.

They are also clearly shown as R7 in the .pdf data sheet for the DSD1792 DAC chip at the attached link (P29,30,31)

 

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/dsd1792.pdf

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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"If a company makes no claims of audio salvation, then, there cannot be snake oil.

Thank you for your interest in audio truth."

 

If we're looking for the truth, can you point out 1 audio company, cable or otherwise that claims audio salvation? I've never seen any company make such a claim.

 

"With respect, you are the only person on the face of the earth who thinks that Blue Jeans Cable products have snake oil attributes. Please understand that on this forum the term "snake oil" pertains to outragous claims which some companies make concerning their products."

 

I say snake oil products are ones that don't live up to the claims that the manufacturer makes about they're products performance.

 

Here's a link to BJ's web site. Its a bit much to cut and paste.

 

https://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/exoticmaterials.htm

 

According to BJ's claims, cables with all of this special engineering and materials won't sound any better than the cables they sell. I swapped out my "exotic" cables with some BJ's, and the only thing I can tell you is that a deaf person can hear the difference. It was clearly audible. No going back and forth to maybe hear something. My system took an immediate and definite hit in SQ.

 

BJ's Cable clearly didn't work as advertised, so I label it snake oil. Just because the cables are cheap doesn't get them off the hook. They didn't deliver on their promises, and that's what matters. To say a $20 or $30 cable is the equal to one for several hundred, or even thousand, is an outrageous claim. Its common sense. You get what you pay for. The sad part here, is that new audiophiles that get sucked into the BJ's philosophy, may never get to hear what a higher quality product sounds like.[/quote

 

 

 

Oh dear. I guess I have to be the first to tell you - in audio you do NOT always get what you pay for. Many of us have heard systems well into the $100,000 price range which were unsatisfactory (to our taste)*. This observation is especially true with exotic cables.

 

Now let us consider, from your expience stated above, what you DO hear. Each exotic cable designer knows that his cable must have some element which will cause an audible change to the system. What you hear is this design factor. The designer has to justify the prices his enterprise will charge. Now here is the genius part, out of 100 customers a certain number will love these cables, they will spend thousands of dollars for the green cable as opposed to the less expensive red cable, because, ...well they are green and they cost more - so they must be better, in short, the green cable customer will fund the entire enterprise. There is nothing wrong with this, it is marketing and the careful audiophile knows he should proceeded with caution and discount hyperbolic ad copy. (Audio salvation!)

 

So back to BJC, you state that BJC claims exotic cables won't sound any better. That is true and the reason it is true is because exotic cables only sound different and if you like the difference, then they ARE better....to you!

 

So in closing, enjoy your cable selection, enjoy your system and enjoy your music, but beware the tricksters, as the entire Audioquest saga becomes a C.21 morality play.

 

* some folks will like the sound of the expensive system some will not. It is a matter of personal preference.

In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake ~ Sayre's Law

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I'm a firm believer in cables being the absolute shortest length, which is usually only possible by making your own or having them custom made with high quality materials.

 

In this respect I'd be surprised if I weren't able myself to replicate the result of using the most exotic cables in my system, which I believe do alter the sound by altering the electrical environment, but how that sound is altered varies in each system, meaning cables do not necessarily have a 100% repeatable 'sound of their own'.

 

Years ago I bought a reel of heavy gauge balanced solid silver cable and have since made every cable I have ever needed from it (I don't have speaker cables because my system is active).

 

In respect of off-the-shelf cables I have always thought the value proposition falls away rapidly after £100 per metre, taking into account that very high quality connectors (WBT, etc) could allow for pushing that number a little higher - given that I believe that a considerably shorter, well made cable of high quality materials, would just as likely sound great in my/your system.

 

I think (l expect) like many I can't see the value proposition in for example a £2000 piece of wire with some connectors on it vs a £2000 DAC, amp, etc... it just doesn't feel like the right thing to be doing, but obviously that's an extreme example.

 

 

Just my 2p.

 

 

;-)

Source:

*Aurender N100 (no internal disk : LAN optically isolated via FMC with *LPS) > DIY 5cm USB link (5v rail removed / ground lift switch - split for *LPS) > Intona Industrial (injected *LPS / internally shielded with copper tape) > DIY 5cm USB link (5v rail removed / ground lift switch) > W4S Recovery (*LPS) > DIY 2cm USB adaptor (5v rail removed / ground lift switch) > *Auralic VEGA (EXACT : balanced)

 

Control:

*Jeff Rowland CAPRI S2 (balanced)

 

Playback:

2 x Revel B15a subs (balanced) > ATC SCM 50 ASL (balanced - 80Hz HPF from subs)

 

Misc:

*Via Power Inspired AG1500 AC Regenerator

LPS: 3 x Swagman Lab Audiophile Signature Edition (W4S, Intona & FMC)

Storage: QNAP TS-253Pro 2x 3Tb, 8Gb RAM

Cables: DIY heavy gauge solid silver (balanced)

Mains: dedicated distribution board with 5 x 2 socket ring mains, all mains cables: Mark Grant Black Series DSP 2.5 Dual Screen

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Would one of those things be misalignment of the clamp you use to hold your head in exactly the right position in relation to your speakers?

 

No clamp needed, although the back of my couch needs to be 3 inches from the back wall. As I stated in a post from 2004 at the Audio Asylum "The listening position is not as critical as the firing position."

 

My 2004 Audio Asylum posts about this subject:

 

Go down to paragraph 3 of this post about the possibility of eliminating the stereo mix from SA-CDs that begins "Distance from Side Wall"

 

My head can move nearly a foot before the image collapses.

 

My speaker placement and listening position.

I have dementia. I save all my posts in a text file I call Forums.  I do a search in that file to find out what I said or did in the past.

 

I still love music.

 

Teresa

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