William Lowe of Audioquest places both feet in his mouth

[plissken]

Check it out:

 

[徐中銳]

Lowe continues... :

Humans are often too quick to ascribe intent where there is none. Most drivers who make mistakes or cut one off, are doing the best they can. No matter how much we don't like the way they drive, there is no mal-intent in their actions -- to take insult is a weakness in the observer. In this manner, many designers are doing their best, and truly believe in something questionable or wrong, but they are trying to act on and tell the truth the best that they can perceive it. It is a rare audio designer who doesn't actually believe the sometimes impossibly silly things that they posit are the fundamentals of audio, or of their products.

 

Where most of the BS comes in is with less audio-competent marketing types. The engineers at some chemical company that designed a fiber optic, and the product development department at an audio manufacture that chose to use that fiber, might be people we would wholeheartedly approve of. The brass ferule on a Toslink connector might be honestly specified to have gold plating, a gold "flash", because the tiny cost will more than be paid back by the incrementally better sales due to gold's attractiveness -- but when that product gets put in a package with the bullet point "gold-plated connectors", I think the line dividing expedient and unacceptable BS has been crossed. The gold plating is on a ferule, not on a connector, and has no bearing on the performance of the cable. A survey of Toslink cable packaging reveals a surprising number of claims to higher performance through gold-plating -- such claims almost always being made by commodity level companies who I believe (based on the performance of the cables) never actually did their job -- to be professional industrial level consumers, choosing the best fiber for inclusion in their final assembly.

 

The James Randi's foundation's Las Vegas show of challenging the efficacy of AudioQuest Ethernet cables, as reported by arstechnica.com (http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/...-in-las-vegas/), was a show-biz farce. As with some of Trump's most definitive enemies being other Republicans, so too was the Randi foundation's methodology so bad that even those who are certain that Ethernet cables are all the same also condemned the silly bit of showmanship. The question as to the efficacy of AudioQuest Ethernet cables is a proper credible question -- such a false-science pursuit of the truth was not credible.

 

A not surprising example of irrational human tribalism, as with condemning movies one hasn't seen, etc., many cable naysayers love to mock AudioQuest's claim that all drawn metal is directional by citing how (to their and our knowledge) the signal can't possibly be directional. How convenient it is for these people to have never read our literature, advertising or box copy, to have never noticed that I have never claimed that an audio signal, analog or digital, is directional. I used to make a point of using directionality as a prime example of the need to honor empirical evidence regardless of lack of understanding. If a cable sounds better one way than the other, why would I ignore such a thing when using the cable in the better sounding direction is free?

 

Now, thanks to the brilliant Garth Powell having joined AudioQuest from Furman, we believe we have a very clear understanding of the mechanism which explains directionality -- which is that at radio frequencies, the directional eccentricities at the surface of drawn metal causes a tiny difference in impedance in one direction vs. the other. In as much as the laws of physics dictate that energy must follow the past of least resistance, by controlling directionality, one can make noise provoked distortion mechanisms better or worse depending on in which direction the picked-up noise is directed.

 

Civilization is possible thanks to astonishing human diversity, and the ability of civilization as a whole to harness the insights of people who by themselves couldn't survive and would never cooperate. In this way, even the idiots contribute, if only to make stupidity visible to those intent on finding the truth. Sorting through all that noise in order to arrive at a rational approach to optimizing the performance of one's audio system is more or less impossible -- and unnecessary. No audio system sounds real, no audio system is so good that it guarantees audio nirvana, and almost no system is so bad that when one is in the mood, listening to music one likes, that one can't get just as high on the music as through a "great" system. We don't enjoy music more as we (ideally) progress through life to ever better components and systems -- we just get more spoiled, and maybe more snobbish about our connoisseurship.

 

This doesn't mean that there isn't real benefit and enjoyment in having good audio gear (I'm very fortunate to have some of the best), but it does mean that it's not about absolute audio quality -- it's about our personal relationship to the music, as made possible through the system. From this perspective, the voicing of the components, and the placement of the speakers in the room (the room often being THE most critical component in the system), is 99% of the process.

 

I advocate that cables can be chosen for their lack of voice (simple bypass testing that almost no one ever does), but that for almost every other part of a system, components must be chosen for their voice -- to pretend that amps or speakers or a turntable don't have a voice is sheer blindness. The difference between good and bad hi-fi is how long it takes before one gets tired, not whether you can count 75 or 76 people in the chorus. Successful emotional stimulation over time is the result of minimal misinformation, not maximum information -- it is the misinformation (distortion, the moving of energy to the wrong frequency and/or time) which interferes with why we listen to music, not a lack of information.

 

The digital HiRes initiative is further confusing this issue. While high-resolution files can offer significant audio advantages, the most important thing they offer is that when properly processed, there are less audio band artifacts, less misinformation to corrupt our music. Unfortunately, higher speed processors are noisier, so a 24/192 file sometimes sounds better when processed at 24/96.

 

Does that kind of knowledge make it easier to buy good hi-fi gear? I think not -- but that doesn't mean that the chase, pursued in this manner, can't be rewarding and fun. However, for most people, the more they think that they understand the gear, the more likely they are to focus on the gear's inevitable flaws, and the harder it is to let go and immerse in the music.

 

May you enjoy the quest for the most efficacious audio gear, and then may you forget what the pieces are as your spirit soars on the inventiveness of your favorite composers and artists.

 

Sincerely, WEL/William/Bill

[Elberoth]

Pls give me 5 min of my time back. This vid is a waste of time.

[plissken]

Pls give me 5 min of my time back. This vid is a waste of time.

 

I can understand your response given the cables in your signature. Interesting he won't take $2000 for what should be ~10-15 minutes effort.

[17629v2]

I can understand your response given the cables in your signature. Interesting he won't take $2000 for what should be ~10-15 minutes effort.

 

What incentive is there for him to get involved in something like this? People say stuff like this every day in chat rooms all over the internet. The guy in the video is BS for 2 reasons. First, he's making all kind of claims about AQ cables without so much as putting his hands on them. Second, he challenges Bill Lowe just like they all do. They hide behind the fact that it would be impossible for him to attend, and provide cables, for every person who bad mouths his product on the internet and wants a shootout with him present. Since when is it a prerequisite for a designer to be present for an equipment test?

 

Here's what the guy in the video could have done. He could have went to his local Best Buy and bought a pair of AQ cables with the DBS system. He could then test them however he wanted, and if he didn't want to keep the cables, he can return them for a full refund. It would have cost him nothing more than a trip to the store and he wouldn't have had to risk his 2k.

 

This is a perfect example of why I say most of the "objectives" are really super subjective. They run from a legitimate test like its a building on fire.

[plissken]

What incentive is there for him to get involved in something like this? People say stuff like this every day in chat rooms all over the internet. The guy in the video is BS for 2 reasons. First, he's making all kind of claims about AQ cables without so much as putting his hands on them. Second, he challenges Bill Lowe just like they all do. They hide behind the fact that it would be impossible for him to attend, and provide cables, for every person who bad mouths his product on the internet and wants a shootout with him present. Since when is it a prerequisite for a designer to be present for an equipment test?

 

Here's what the guy in the video could have done. He could have went to his local Best Buy and bought a pair of AQ cables with the DBS system. He could then test them however he wanted, and if he didn't want to keep the cables, he can return them for a full refund. It would have cost him nothing more than a trip to the store and he wouldn't have had to risk his 2k.

 

This is a perfect example of why I say most of the "objectives" are really super subjective. They run from a legitimate test like its a building on fire.

 

Lowe is talking out both sides though. You can't in one post say "all the time" "all over the world" with differing audiences sitting there allowing one variable to be swapped out and then say you can't switch a cable out (where he name dropped Atkinson).

 

Sound familiar?

 

He's already set the testing rig. He just won't sit down for it if someone else is pulling the ropes behind the curtain.

[Keith_W]

If you look a little closely, it is the OP who made the video, the OP who was involved in the discussion on WBF, and (according to the OP) resulted in a ban from WBF. In a fit of pique, he made the video and is posting it as far and as wide as possible. This is nothing more than a forum rant ... but on video.

[plissken]

If you look a little closely, it is the OP who made the video, the OP who was involved in the discussion on WBF, and (according to the OP) resulted in a ban from WBF. In a fit of pique, he made the video and is posting it as far and as wide as possible. This is nothing more than a forum rant ... but on video.

 

I wouldn't confuse the message with the messenger. If AQ can swap out a variable at a show, as it was told by Mr. Lowe, then most certainly that variable could be another cable.

 

When you're silenced in one venue you'll simply have to speak up at another. I'm sure if there was no suspension of the account it would have stayed in thread there. Steve or another admin chose to ban someone and that's fine since it's there forum. That someone chose another venue where they can't be arbitrarily silenced. I'm sure Mr. Lowe, Steve or anyone else at WBF is welcome to offer rebuttal to the video in the youtube comments.

 

BTW members over at AudioScienceReview are stating that WBF is wholesale banning members.

[Rt66indierock]

"This doesn't mean that there isn't real benefit and enjoyment in having good audio gear (I'm very fortunate to have some of the best), but it does mean that it's not about absolute audio quality -- it's about our personal relationship to the music, as made possible through the system. From this perspective, the voicing of the components, and the placement of the speakers in the room (the room often being THE most critical component in the system), is 99% of the process."

 

"I advocate that cables can be chosen for their lack of voice (simple bypass testing that almost no one ever does), but that for almost every other part of a system, components must be chosen for their voice -- to pretend that amps or speakers or a turntable don't have a voice is sheer blindness. The difference between good and bad hi-fi is how long it takes before one gets tired, not whether you can count 75 or 76 people in the chorus. Successful emotional stimulation over time is the result of minimal misinformation, not maximum information -- it is the misinformation (distortion, the moving of energy to the wrong frequency and/or time) which interferes with why we listen to music, not a lack of information."

 

I find this most interesting. There is an audio path started at Reed College. Bill Lowe is considered to have strayed from this path. It is nice to see him (a Reed alum) returning to the logic of minimal misinformation and putting the components of a stereo system in proper focus.

[Teresa]

Plissken, I'm sorry but I disagree and here is why:

 

At What's Best Forum Jinjuku wrote in post 295:

 

“Why does the DBS system need a battery indicator? Their cables make such an audible difference that you should be able to hear when the batteries die.”

 

Part of WELquest’s (William E. Low) reply in post 296:

 

“…You know that dielectrics don't "form" quickly, and don't un-form or become amorphous again quickly either. If the effect of dielectrically-biasing a cable (cap, etc.) accounted for a perceived 10% reduction in the distortion caused by a cable (moving energy from where it should be to someplace else), and because forming a dielectric takes approximately 2 weeks for a 0% reduction to become 10%, and because when all biasing voltage is removed, it also takes approximately 2 weeks for that 10% to return to 0% -- even humans (as compared to the proverbial frog in water that's heating up) have a difficult time noticing the change…”

My response to both:

 

If one's system starts sounding worse by very small amounts each day for two weeks or so, one may not notice the change until they put on a favorite recording and say something like "what the hell is wrong?". So I can see how a system could gradually sound worse as Mr. Low describes.

 

Also, if one turns on their system and it doesn’t sound right, one can use the test button on the DBS system to see if the battery is charged or dead.

 

• If the battery is dead, the problem may be the cable.
  
• If the battery is charged then something else in the system is the problem.

 

I don’t know about you, but when my system doesn’t sound right, I have to keep checking things until I find the correct problem before I can fix the problem. And IMHO that is why there is a test button.

 

Jinjuku suggest a blind AB test in post 303.

 

WELquest replied in post 306

“I suspect you are wanting to do instant comparisons, and wanting both cables to be attached all the time. The first is a methodology that the professionals in my community have done their best to explain why it's a defective methodology, most notably John Atkinson.

 

The latter physical problem, of having both cables attached all the time (depending on intricacies of the switcher with which I'm not familiar), is that having both cables attached to the hardware means that some of what would be compared in a one cable-at-a-time comparison is effectively eliminated by having them both attached -- a comparison (unintentionally) designed to eliminate some of the the variables which account for different performance.”

 

Click here for my thoughts on AB’ing in post 414 in the "Vinyl v Digital: The Thirty-Five Year Con" thread

 

Click here for more of my thoughts on AB’ing and links supporting them in post 1325 in the "Why do objectivists get so upset?" thread

 

In the video mention was made of reselling a cable that made no sonic difference to the listener. If one bought a cable that didn’t sound good to them (especially an expensive one), why didn't they return it for full refund under the satisfaction guarantee?

[plissken]

 

If one's system starts sounding worse by very small amounts each day for two weeks or so, one may not notice the change until they put on a favorite recording and say something like "what the hell is wrong". So I can see how a system could gradually sound worse as Mr. Low describes.

 

What happens if the battery has been dead for 6 months? A year later? That day may come where a favorite recording sounds worse and the batteries are in perfectly fine shape and there is nothing else wrong with the system. All plausible and it comes back to the cable just may not create anything other than expectation bias.

 

There are myriad of reasons why something might sound off and have nothing to do with equipment.

 

Why would you exclude that as a possibility?

 

I don’t know about you, but when my system doesn’t sound right, I have to keep checking things until I find the correct problem before I can fix the problem. And IMHO that is why there is a test button.

 

That still doesn't resolve the issue of AQ putting on a show, demoing a cable and making change to a single variable for an audience to hear. It's classic A/B. Are you going to call them out here in this forum like you do others?

 

What's your response to him?

 

 

Click here for my thoughts on AB’ing in post 414 in the Vinyl v Digital: The Thirty-Five Year Con thread

 

 

I didn't see anyone other than Mr. Lowe propose an A/B setup: "a new audience hears a run through of cable comparisons in which a single variable is changed at a time, including solid vs. stranded, parallel vs. spiraled, metal-only change, and the same model of cable with and without DBS."

 

May be that you need to take that up with AQ?

 

He is being taken at his word, he is being taken at his proposed testing methodology. Then he has two other posts that are 180 degree about face of that in the same thread. This is what happens when you spin so many webs: You get caught up in them.

 

 

In the video mention was made of reselling a cable that made no sonic difference to the listener. If one bought a cable that didn’t sound good to them (especially an expensive one), why didn't they return it for full refund under the satisfaction guarantee?

 

Mr. Lowe is the one that mentioned a high dollar cable with DBS sitting in a drawer for 5 years. Since it's about "perception over time" I can only guess that maybe in the context of his post the person went beyond the return window? You would have to ask him why DBS cables, their best sounding cable, would sit in drawers for 5 years.

 

I find it odd you aren't taking any of his posts to task when there is stark irony plainly on display.

[Teresa]

What happens if the battery has been dead for 6 months? A year later? That day may come where a favorite recording sounds worse and the batteries are in perfectly fine shape and there is nothing else wrong with the system. All plausible and it comes back to the cable just may not create anything other than expectation bias.

 

There are myriad of reasons why something might sound off and have nothing to do with equipment.

 

Why would you exclude that as a possibility?

 

I don't exclude anything. Some hot summer afternoons, my audio system has sounded bad, I still check for possible reasons, if I can't find the problem I recheck after the sun goes down and either it sounds right or I find the problem. First thing I do is get out my tape measure because 9 times out of 10, one of my speakers has moved by 1/8th to 1/16th of an inch. But there have been many other things that have sabotaged the sound of my system. Thing is I don't know what is making my system sound bad until I stumble onto the cause. And that is why I believe the battery indicator is there.

 

Also, if the audio system still sounds as expected and the battery has been dead for 6 months or a year, that means for that listener, in that system the battery may not be needed, I think Mr. Low mentioned that in one of his posts.

 

That still doesn't resolve the issue of AQ putting on a show, demoing a cable and making change to a single variable for an audience to hear. It's classic A/B. Are you going to call them out here in this forum like you do others?

 

What's your response to him?

 

I didn't see anyone other than Mr. Lowe propose an A/B setup: "a new audience hears a run through of cable comparisons in which a single variable is changed at a time, including solid vs. stranded, parallel vs. spiraled, metal-only change, and the same model of cable with and without DBS."

 

May be that you need to take that up with AQ?

 

He is being taken at his word, he is being taken at his proposed testing methodology. Then he has two other posts that are 180 degree about face of that in the same thread. This is what happens when you spin so many webs: You get caught up in them.

 

Jinjuku suggested a blind AB test in post 303 along with a bet.

 

My response to Mr. Low or anyone giving a demonstration at an audio show is the same as it has always been, I will listening and if I think I might like my music with whatever device and I am in the market for it I might try it later with a money-back satisfaction guarantee.

 

As you know I don’t trust AB’ing sighted or blind. The only thing a public AB demonstration can do is to possibly spark interest to give said product an thorough home audition for a few weeks. Audio show demos, reviews, etc. are not definitive for me. Audio shows are good for discovering what is available, somewhat a taste of how it might sound and what the science or explanation behind it is.

 

...Mr. Lowe is the one that mentioned a high dollar cable with DBS sitting in a drawer for 5 years. Since it's about "perception over time" I can only guess that maybe in the context of his post the person went beyond the return window? You would have to ask him why DBS cables, their best sounding cable, would sit in drawers for 5 years.

 

I didn't question why Mr. Low said it was in the drawer for 5 years, my problem was with Jinjuku's reply to him in the video.

 

I find it odd you aren't taking any of his posts to task when there is stark irony plainly on display.

 

Because I found no irony in Mr. Low's posts, and thought they explained his position very well. IMHO the only person with both feet in their mouth was Jinjuku.

[plissken]

I don't exclude anything. Some hot summer afternoons, my audio system has sounded bad, I still check for possible reasons, if I can't find the problem I recheck after the sun goes down and either it sounds right or I find the problem. First thing I do is get out my tape measure because 9 times out of 10, one of my speakers has moved by 1/8th to 1/16th of an inch. But there have been many other things that have sabotaged the sound of my system. Thing is I don't know what is making my system sound bad until I stumble onto the cause. And that is why I believe the battery indicator is there.

 

Also, if the audio system still sounds as expected and the battery has been dead for 6 months or a year, that means for that listener, in that system the battery may not be needed, I think Mr. Low mentioned that in one of his posts.

 

But why can't it simply be there was not ever a change to begin with? Why can't it be that until there is empiric data that the cables do nothing more or less that another properly engineered cable does? Why can't the DBS system make something sound worse?

 

I think if something is that imperceptible then I have reservations about it. I can only have as much faith as AQ does. I don't think it's a waste of time to demonstrate the superiority of your product.

 

Like the BOSE displays at stores where they make sure you can't directly compare it to other surround setups.

 

Jinjuku suggested a blind AB test in post 303.

 

My response to Mr. Low or anyone giving a demonstration at an audio show is the same as it has always been, I will listening and if I think I might like my music with whatever device and I am in the market for it I might try it later with a money-back satisfaction guarantee.

 

Huh... I thought post 303 was in direct response to 301 which is the method that AQ uses to showcase their products. 301 certainly precedes 303...

 

Totally agree on using the return policy. Unfortunately for me I have zero local shops so I'm limited by what is carried online and what I reasonably can put up with in terms of potentially having to ship something back. I do have an Emotiva Stealth DC-1 DAC coming as I want to add HP capabilities to my system. See how that goes vs the Bel Canto 1.7.

 

As you know I don’t trust AB’ing sighted or blind. The only thing a public AB demonstration can do is to possibly spark interest to give said product an thorough home audition for a few weeks. Audio show demos, reviews, etc. are not definitive for me. Audio shows are good for discovering what is available, somewhat a taste of how it might sound and what the science or explanation behind it is.

 

I know you don't but it does appear that AQ puts on live A/B comparisons. So it's about what they believe is valid, it's about what methodology works for them.

 

Doesn't this sword cut both ways?

[Doak]

Are you kidding me?

People arguing about whether or not cables "make a difference" or "sound different"?

Bottom line: If something/anything doesn't make a difference to you then don't waste your time/money/energy.

Move along and be happy.

[bluesman]

Bottom line: If something/anything doesn't make a difference to you then don't waste your time/money/energy. Move along and be happy.

[17629v2]

"Lowe is talking out both sides though. You can't in one post say "all the time" "all over the world" with differing audiences sitting there allowing one variable to be swapped out and then say you can't switch a cable out (where he name dropped Atkinson)."

 

I went through it again to see what you are talking about. If you read the entire statement with ("all the time" "all over the world") in it, you can see he is clearly talking about more than just the dbs system, and even AQ cables. So yes, people do swap out cables all the time in an attempt to isolate and study any number of qualities. If there was any confusion about side by side evaluation of dbs cables, it can be done. If you read his statements again, you'll see that he recommends 2 weeks for the dbs system to either charge, or dissipate. Once you allow for that, you can get another pair of the exact same cable and compare them.

 

"He's already set the testing rig. He just won't sit down for it if someone else is pulling the ropes behind the curtain."

 

No one would do that. You really expect Bill Lowe to go out to every challenge he gets on an internet chat forum? Especially one like this where the person issuing the challenge never put their hands on one of these cables, and us just guessing as to what the cables will or won't do? Like I said yesterday, its not necessary to have a designer present to do an evaluation. If you really want to see first hand if the dbs makes a difference, buy the cables from your local Best Buy, and return them if they don't live up to the claims. What more could you possibly want?

[17629v2]

"But why can't it simply be there was not ever a change to begin with? Why can't it be that until there is empiric data that the cables do nothing more or less that another properly engineered cable does? Why can't the DBS system make something sound worse?

 

I think if something is that imperceptible then I have reservations about it. I can only have as much faith as AQ does. I don't think it's a waste of time to demonstrate the superiority of your product.

 

Like the BOSE displays at stores where they make sure you can't directly compare it to other surround setups. "

 

You have to take responsibility for your own actions. No one is putting a gun to your head. If you don't see the value in a pair of cables, don't buy them. Some people listen to AQ cables and choose something else. That's just the way it goes. But its your responsibility to make sure you spend your money wisely. Not Bill Lowe, or anyone else's.

[plissken]

"Lowe is talking out both sides though. You can't in one post say "all the time" "all over the world" with differing audiences sitting there allowing one variable to be swapped out and then say you can't switch a cable out (where he name dropped Atkinson)."

 

I went through it again to see what you are talking about. If you read the entire statement with ("all the time" "all over the world") in it, you can see he is clearly talking about more than just the dbs system, and even AQ cables. So yes, people do swap out cables all the time in an attempt to isolate and study any number of qualities. If there was any confusion about side by side evaluation of dbs cables, it can be done. If you read his statements again, you'll see that he recommends 2 weeks for the dbs system to either charge, or dissipate. Once you allow for that, you can get another pair of the exact same cable and compare them.

 

"He's already set the testing rig. He just won't sit down for it if someone else is pulling the ropes behind the curtain."

 

No one would do that. You really expect Bill Lowe to go out to every challenge he gets on an internet chat forum? Especially one like this where the person issuing the challenge never put their hands on one of these cables, and us just guessing as to what the cables will or won't do? Like I said yesterday, its not necessary to have a designer present to do an evaluation. If you really want to see first hand if the dbs makes a difference, buy the cables from your local Best Buy, and return them if they don't live up to the claims. What more could you possibly want?

 

I don't expect Lowe to do this all the time. It would however be nice to do it at least once with some decent controls in place.

 

Distilled down it is still an A/B comparison and they do this at shows(?). I don't see how I'm not reading the post correctly.

 

I believe there is a post about having had the AQ KK XLR's and one of their Ethernet cables. If the DBS system fails you should notice at some point. I have a hard time swallowing that you wouldn't notice. Because if that is the case and your DBS system hadn't worked in 6 months and you didn't know then the value proposition really does suffer IMO.

 

Just trying to close the logic loop on this and I don't believe it's discounting the 2 week ramp up/down. If letting the DBS cable sit in a drawer for 5 years is a plausible scenario so is a cable that the DBS hasn't been working in 6 months just as plausible.

[plissken]

You have to take responsibility for your own actions. No one is putting a gun to your head. If you don't see the value in a pair of cables, don't buy them. Some people listen to AQ cables and choose something else. That's just the way it goes. But its your responsibility to make sure you spend your money wisely. Not Bill Lowe, or anyone else's.

 

Agreed. I guess what I would like to experience is someone hearing the difference and it's vetted properly. Then at least attempt to get some instruction to see if what they are listening for could potentially be passed on to others. Watermarking or what have you.

 

Just a thought as I know there are applications for ear training and I have done the one from Harman and Phillips.

[NOMBEDES]

Blue. Jeans. Cable.

 

quality. fair price. no snake oil.

[17629v2]

Blue. Jeans. Cable.

 

quality. fair price. no snake oil.

 

I have to disagree. Recently, I was able to get my hands on some Blue Jeans cable to try, and the only conclusion that I could come up with, is that their cables are snake oil. I can do a lot better. Now, if you're using them and are getting good results, keep them because that's all that matters.

[17629v2]

"Just trying to close the logic loop on this and I don't believe it's discounting the 2 week ramp up/down. If letting the DBS cable sit in a drawer for 5 years is a plausible scenario so is a cable that the DBS hasn't been working in 6 months just as plausible."

 

As long as you are considering the 2 weeks, I agree. I'm just not sure I see what your argument is. Unless you think that you should be able to A/B the cables, with and without the dbs system working, and get immediate, verifiable results. If that's what you are asking, then its possible, but not guaranteed. The reason, as always, is that the cables work differently in different applications. I have many pairs of AQ cables with the dbs. I can put a pair in one application and have them make a big difference, but put the same exact cable somewhere else and the difference could be very small. Every so often, I hear no difference. And if I'm working with the more expensive silver cables, they don't always sound better than the cheaper copper version.

 

The only thing I can tell you for certain, is that it doesn't matter what results I get with these cables. If you can't get good results like me, then you're crazy to buy them. Most people don't realize this, but audio at this level is very hands on. You just can't trust reviews and opinions. If you want good sound, you need to actively pursue it, and that means getting your hands dirty. Yes, its more work, but the results will be far better than if you take a more passive role.

[esldude]

"Just trying to close the logic loop on this and I don't believe it's discounting the 2 week ramp up/down. If letting the DBS cable sit in a drawer for 5 years is a plausible scenario so is a cable that the DBS hasn't been working in 6 months just as plausible."

 

As long as you are considering the 2 weeks, I agree. I'm just not sure I see what your argument is. Unless you think that you should be able to A/B the cables, with and without the dbs system working, and get immediate, verifiable results. If that's what you are asking, then its possible, but not guaranteed. The reason, as always, is that the cables work differently in different applications. I have many pairs of AQ cables with the dbs. I can put a pair in one application and have them make a big difference, but put the same exact cable somewhere else and the difference could be very small. Every so often, I hear no difference. And if I'm working with the more expensive silver cables, they don't always sound better than the cheaper copper version.

 

The only thing I can tell you for certain, is that it doesn't matter what results I get with these cables. If you can't get good results like me, then you're crazy to buy them. Most people don't realize this, but audio at this level is very hands on. You just can't trust reviews and opinions. If you want good sound, you need to actively pursue it, and that means getting your hands dirty. Yes, its more work, but the results will be far better than if you take a more passive role.

 

While I largely agree about the final bit being hands on there is another aspect to hands on. The satisfaction and reinforcement that comes from knowing you did something, spent time and used care to get it just so. That may have nothing to do with actual results though it is all the difference in how you feel about it.

 

A friend in college had this thing about 3 items he kept on a shelf. He would initially spend hours moving it this way and that to get it just perfect. Did this each time he moved or came back from last semester. If you bumped one getting a book off the shelf he couldn't rest until he got it right again. Once more taking as much as an hour. Often the movements were so small I could see no point though he claimed he would notice. I always owned up to having bumped or nudged something unintentionally the few times it happened.

 

A couple times however, I was a naughty friend. When he was out of the room and we were studying some material in a class we both had, I told him upon his return, "man I am sorry, I was standing looking at your notes on the desk and put my hand on the shelf....I bumped your statue and I know how particular you are. I think I put it back exactly." Now in fact I never touched it. He looked and immediately proclaimed how my "exactly" was nothing of the sort and it was obvious it was not even close to his preferred position. He spent a half hour at least with these infinitesimal movements until he was satisfied it was back where he wanted it. I think the position had little to do with anything much beyond him knowing he spent the time and worried with it until he could "feel" it was in the very best possible position.

 

I see manifestations of something similar with at least some audiophiles. You can't say it doesn't matter because all the difference in the world is whether you feel satisfied with your gear or not. Even if it is something like I describe above you will never feel good until 'you' make it good. No one else no matter how accomplished or how nice the results they obtain can make it good to you except for you.

 

These humans are slippery and endlessly fascinating creatures. Not that I myself fall prey to such foibles.

[NOMBEDES]

I have to disagree. Recently, I was able to get my hands on some Blue Jeans cable to try, and the only conclusion that I could come up with, is that their cables are snake oil. I can do a lot better. Now, if you're using them and are getting good results, keep them because that's all that matters.

 

With respect, you are the only person on the face of the earth who thinks that Blue Jeans Cable products have snake oil attributes. Please understand that on this forum the term "snake oil" pertains to outragous claims which some companies make concerning their products.

 

If a company makes no claims of audio salvation, then, there cannot be snake oil.

 

 

Thank you for your interest in audio truth.

[kumakuma]

With respect, you are the only person on the face of the earth who thinks that Blue Jeans Cable products have snake oil attributes. Please understand that on this forum the term "snake oil" pertains to outragous claims which some companies make concerning their products.

 

If a company makes no claims of audio salvation, then, there cannot be snake oil.

 

+1

 

The term "snake oil" refers to inflated marketing promises about what a product does.

 

The only promises that BJC makes is that their cables are well made using quality components.