Sonicorbiter - The Operating System

[vortecjr]

8 hours ago, JBNY said:

 

I have worked in software development so I do know how many hours go into firmware updates and QA. If this were a $60 piece of software that was getting an new version and the upgrade was $20 I would understand. This is a $700 piece of audio equipment that is asking for an upgrade fee for the firmware in less than a year after launch. I understand that I don't have to upgrade. I'm not "outraged" by the decision to charge for the firmware upgrade just disappointed. I've got audio products I bought 12 years ago that still get regular firmware updates. 

We are still going to do regular updates, but this will move the chain and reset things.

[vortecjr]

5 hours ago, Elberoth said:

 

+1

 

Competing SOtM sMS-200 endpoint software had several updates and all of them were free.

 

It is even more surprising if you consider that the manufacturing cost if each unit is ~$150, so their profit for each unit sold (no dealer markup !) is around ~ $500.  

 

How much was the upgrade for the sMS-100? Can you update the sMS-100 to use the new features in the sMS-200? In case you don't know...you can't.  

[vortecjr]

4 hours ago, Bones13 said:

I ordered my card as soon as the email was sent out. The way I look at it - if I can like Spotify as much as Tidal, and I cancel Tidal, I will SAVE $20 a month. I already have a Spotify  subscription, as thats all the wife will use. Tidal and my Roon system play almost too well together. Separating my library from a streaming music service might be worthwhile.

 

Thank you team Sonore.

You need the premium account for Spotify Connect or it will not stream to a remote device. Their rules not mine.

[Pixelplay]

4 hours ago, vortecjr said:

We are still going to do regular updates, but this will move the chain and reset things.

How does charging $20 move the chain and reset things?

As a huge advocate of your current products and a very probable client for further products, this just rubs some of the luster off of your brand. Had you noted when the uRendu first went up for sale that it would be supported BUT a fee would be charged to optimise it at some stage perhaps we would not have had a problem with it. As it stands now it does feel like a money grab on a product that cost hundreds of $. It is clear that you have a great team and a comprehensive understanding of all things digital however your customer service needs some catching up. 

[http404]

For an easy example: Microsoft releases a new version of Excel. They stop releasing new features or functionality for your version and stick to security and bug fixes. If you want the latest and greatest you have to pay. Grrr!

 

Even though your computer works fine, you could buy a new one that comes with the new version of Excel, that way you'd get it "free".

 

The biggest difference is really that as it applies to HiFi, there isn't an established set of expectations about when it's OK to pay for what.

 

Would the naysayers feel less aggrieved over $20 if the new release was numbered 3.0?

 

I can't escape the sense that there's a lack of perspective at play here:

• The cost itself is trivial
• ongoing functionality is guaranteed
• Promises have not been broken and no-one's been mislead
• Scenarios have been evaluated and a business decision made
• A team of talented, creative people deserve to be supported and encouraged
• I want them to stay in business along current lines
• How many among us have benefited from truly incredible support (raises hand)

Can't we all just get along, pay the nice people $20, smile and hug ?!

 

[firedog]

12 hours ago, Elberoth said:

 

+1

 

Competing SOtM sMS-200 endpoint software had several updates and all of them were free.

 

It is even more surprising if you consider that the manufacturing cost if each unit is ~$150, so their profit for each unit sold (no dealer markup !) is around ~ $500.  

 

1. mR has already had free updates and will have more, so what's your point?

2.Appears that  SOtM copied the OS developed by SMG and Sonore and called it something else, so no development costs for them.

3. I'm pretty sure your estimate of the manufacturing cost of the unit is orders of magnitude low. This isn't a factory produced item with part orders numbering in the thousands of pieces. Part and assembly costs are way more than you are assuming. 

4. The predecessor to the SMS-200, the SMS-100, was discontinued by SOtM and now gets no support or development. What will you say in a year or two when the same thing happens to the SMS-200? 

[Bones13]

Yep, Spotify Premium, we use it on a Sonos system throughout the house (except for my room)

 

JRiver makes you pay for upgrades, you have to buy the new version every once and awhile. This is not an isolated instance.

 

I would much prefer to pay a small incremental upgrade cost every so often than buy a new product every couple of years.

 

All these products cost money to support, and develop upgrades for. Despite the clamor on this site, these are small batches of custom designed hardware aimed at a small subset of a relatively small group(audiophiles). There are not large margins, and the market is changing wildly as technology advances, a new competing product can show up at any point, and if it develops "flavor of the month status" the existing product fades quickly.

 

My microRendu has received 2 updates since I bought it, with bug fixes. Free I might add. 20 bucks to upgrade the unit beats the upgraditis urge that would occur if he just released microRendu v2, meanwhile ceasing any upgrades for v1. That would be more in line with the typical audio equipment manufacturer.

[SamS]

17 minutes ago, Bones13 said:

.............. 20 bucks to upgrade the unit beats the upgraditis urge that would occur if he just released microRendu v2, meanwhile ceasing any upgrades for v1. That would be more in line with the typical audio equipment manufacturer.

 

Speaking of mR v2 are there any plans to update the mR to incorporate the ISO Regen just announced by Uptone, given the current mR has an original (slightly improved, I think I read somewhere) Regen equivalent?  

[Elberoth]

8 hours ago, firedog said:

1. mR has already had free updates and will have more, so what's your point?

2.Appears that  SOtM copied the OS developed by SMG and Sonore and called it something else, so no development costs for them.

3. I'm pretty sure your estimate of the manufacturing cost of the unit is orders of magnitude low. This isn't a factory produced item with part orders numbering in the thousands of pieces. Part and assembly costs are way more than you are assuming. 

4. The predecessor to the SMS-200, the SMS-100, was discontinued by SOtM and now gets no support or development. What will you say in a year or two when the same thing happens to the SMS-200? 

Some people even argue the BOM (bill of materials) for microRendu is as low as $120:

 

And they may be right. I said $150 to account for the box etc. It doesn't change the fact that they charge you ~$500 for each unit sold for their IP. Which of course is their prerogative. I'm mentioning it only 'cos, I would imagine the $500 you already paid with the constant stream from newsold mRs should give them plenty of money to pay for the development costs ... 

 

On the other hand, I estimate the BoM of SOtM sMS-200 to be closer to $200. Not only that - the sMS-200 is sold through a regular distributor/dealer network, which means that from the $499 they charge, they only receive ~$300. That is only ~$100 over BoM for each unit sold. In other words - Sonore profit is 5x as high. 

 

MicroRendu is not only a cheaper product selling for more ($150 in BOM, sold factory direct for $640). As a consequence, it is less substantially built and just doesn't sound as good. 

 

And to meke things worse for Sonore, their customer service is sub par in my experience compared to SOtM. 

 

 

[barrows]

21 hours ago, Elberoth said:

 

+1

 

Competing SOtM sMS-200 endpoint software had several updates and all of them were free.

 

It is even more surprising if you consider that the manufacturing cost if each unit is ~$150, so their profit for each unit sold (no dealer markup !) is around ~ $500.  

 

Unreal...  You do understand that the difference in manufacturing costs between Asia and the US, yes?  where do you think SOtM got their code from... just saying...  shady

[http404]

1 hour ago, Elberoth said:

And to meke things worse for Sonore, their customer service is sub par in my experience compared to SOtM. 

 

Cheer up - you can probably replace your microRendu with a second sMS-200 and be ahead financially. Wouldn't it be nicer to have nothing to be upset with Sonore about?

[stvc]

2 hours ago, Elberoth said:

Some people even argue the BOM (bill of materials) for microRendu is as low as $120:

 

And they may be right. I said $150 to account for the box etc. It doesn't change the fact that they charge you ~$500 for each unit sold for their IP. Which of course is their prerogative. I'm mentioning it only 'cos, I would imagine the $500 you already paid with the constant stream from newsold mRs should give them plenty of money to pay for the development costs ... 

 

On the other hand, I estimate the BoM of SOtM sMS-200 to be closer to $200. Not only that - the sMS-200 is sold through a regular distributor/dealer network, which means that from the $499 they charge, they only receive ~$300. That is only ~$100 over BoM for each unit sold. In other words - Sonore profit is 5x as high. 

 

MicroRendu is not only a cheaper product selling for more ($150 in BOM, sold factory direct for $640). As a consequence, it is less substantially built and just doesn't sound as good. 

 

And to meke things worse for Sonore, their customer service is sub par in my experience compared to SOtM. 

 

 

 

I believe rendu BOM cost will be lower than 150, manufacturing cost is hard to say depend on Volume and manufacturing location, it still very cheap if mass production. For today market 5-6X of selling price to BOM cost is very norm for any branded product, I can bet SOtM mark up are similar to Sonore. If you look at high end speaker or cable, you can easily find 100K speaker or 20K cable, what you think about their BOM cost? I can assure you their mark up is at least 10X, worth it or not it's up to individual, why don't just move on if you feel that not for you. 

 

 

[firedog]

I think some of you who are so confident about your BOM quotes and cost estimates don't have the first clue what you are talking about. Arrogance and ignorance are a dangerous combination. 

[Cool3r King]

This has all become very tedious! If you don't like the product, the company or feel that better is to be had elsewhere for possibly cheaper.... then guess what?  Go and buy said product! It really is that simple. Then those of us who are enjoying other products, which we have a right and free choice to do even if we want to pay through the nose for it, can do so without listening to constant and extensive bleating! 

There are many more worthwhile things to get upset over.... I have not commented until now, but am really, really, bored of it all. Please stop.

[Account Closed]

51 minutes ago, Cool3r King said:

This has all become very tedious! If you don't like the product, the company or feel that better is to be had elsewhere for possibly cheaper.... then guess what?  Go and buy said product! It really is that simple. Then those of us who are enjoying other products, which we have a right and free choice to do even if we want to pay through the nose for it, can do so without listening to constant and extensive bleating! 

There are many more worthwhile things to get upset over.... I have not commented until now, but am really, really, bored of it all. Please stop.

 

 

+1

 

This is a sponsored forum. These posters should take their gripes to a separate thread. JR would be perfectly within his rights to delete all these posts. This is his house so his rules apply.

[http404]

38 minutes ago, bobflood said:

JR would be perfectly within his rights to delete all these posts. This is his house so his rules apply.

 

You're right, but there are good reasons for leaving the grumpy posts. It's an opportunity to demonstrate the patience and professionalism with which they're handled and lends credibility to the honesty of the forum. 

 

In much the same way, when looking at online reviews, I have trouble trusting the all-glowing or all complaining reviews. At least with Google you can identify the serial complainers or the suspected semi-professional boosters by looking at their review history.

 

I now prefer personal recommendations again whenever possible, as online reviews have become so unreliable. Forums like this are often as close as you can come to personal recommendations or warnings.

[Matias]

I don't use DSD and also don't need the extra features, so if no sound quality gains are achieved through the new version, I think I will just skip it.

[vortecjr]

7 hours ago, Pixelplay said:

How does charging $20 move the chain and reset things?

As a huge advocate of your current products and a very probable client for further products, this just rubs some of the luster off of your brand. Had you noted when the uRendu first went up for sale that it would be supported BUT a fee would be charged to optimise it at some stage perhaps we would not have had a problem with it. As it stands now it does feel like a money grab on a product that cost hundreds of $. It is clear that you have a great team and a comprehensive understanding of all things digital however your customer service needs some catching up. 

This is a new operating system made to take advantage of a feature that was to available until a month or two ago. Updating this operating system has already allowed to add a new output mode and will serve as a stable platform for future updates of all the apps on the unit.   

[vortecjr]

Adam Mokrzycki (AKA Elberoth) bought a unit from us around May of 2016. He asked for a industry accommodation because he was a Senior Contributing Editor for AUDIO in Poland. As such...we comped his shipping. Shortly after receiving his unit the support emails came in. First setup issues typical with first time users. Then more and more emails about setup, issues with playback, and or the unit dropping in HQ Player.  We traded about 105 emails trying to sort his issues out. After all the things we tried with unit #1 he purchased unit #2 somewhere that worked so he asked to return unit #1. We granted him a refund on Feb of 2017. Normally the story would end there, but when things go wrong they really wrong. We subsequently had an issue with the shipping return and the refund for shipping cost that was my mistake 100%. 

 

What can I say...this sale was not meant to be and the strained relationship does not seem to have been eased with time. I can only speak for myself when I say that I don't have any hard feelings. 

 

Adam, I accept your opinion that you like another product in your system. What I don't appreciate is your calculated attempt to cause me harm here in the forum. 

[vortecjr]

Update Status:

1. For those people who are quietly purchasing the cards from the link without drama I just want to say...thank you. I have the first batch of micro SD cards with 2.5 on them here and I'm going to spot check them today before any ship out.

2. For those people who trying to purchase the update please note that we are sold out of the first batch and offering a pre-sale for the second batch.

3. For those people who have opted out of the purchase you are within your right to do so. Should you change your mind at some point do not hesitate to ask for the update via email if the link is no longer working.

 

Some responses to comments above:

I'm honored to work with many talented people on this project. When John, Andrew and I first met and planned out this project our unified goal was to simply make a minimal audiophile grade Ethernet to USB renderer. This project is not about the sum of the bill of materials instead it's about having any idea and sharing it with you. I'm proud of the resulting product and IMO the microRendu is second to none.

[Matias]

14 hours ago, vortecjr said:

3. For those people who have opted out of the purchase you are within your right to do so. Should you change your mind at some point do not hesitate to ask for the update via email if the link is no longer working.

 

Maybe after some users report back their findings in sound quality I can change my mind indeed. Hopefully it does increase SQ!

[drmike]

hello jesus,

i bought my mr used. how can i get on the list to purchase the 2.5?

thanks,

drmike

[Forehaven]

Jesus, any appx ship date yet?

[vortecjr]

8 hours ago, drmike said:

hello jesus,

i bought my mr used. how can i get on the list to purchase the 2.5?

thanks,

drmike

Just contact us via email.

[vortecjr]

4 hours ago, Forehaven said:

Jesus, any appx ship date yet?

We start shipping Monday.