DARKO: MQA: a non-hostile takeover?

[The Computer Audiophile]

Very interesting read. If Apple took their Mastered for Itunes process one step further and added Hi-Res music to iTunes and kept the wide compatibility the same as it is currently (iTunes files play on Android and Windows etc) would this leave MQA dead on arrival?

 

My understanding is that Apple has long had artists submit music in 24/96 for the Mastered For Itunes process so they might have had the biggest hi-res collections on the planet for many years now. I wouldn't be surprised if they figure out a way to package hi-res music in a way that makes it more stream and download friendly (file size).

 

Btw, I dropped Apple Music for Tidal and don't have an iPhone. So I'm definitely not an Apple fan boy but they've had long history in digital music delivery and I've bought many albums from iTunes for many years, before streaming and HD Tracks etc came along. So I can see how Apple could make MQA dead on arrival. And if it meant I didn't need to get all sorts of expensive new gear I'd jump on that.

 

Also, Apple is only one example. Spotify could do it working closely with the record labels to develop a smaller hi-res file format and still one that's open source. But Apple most likely has the hi-res library (through the Mastered for Itunes process).

 

The next 12 months will be interesting for hi-res streaming though, seeing who shakes it up or if it doesn't take off at all.

I don't believe Apple or any other major / global streaming service will offer high resolution music any time soon. I also don't believe Apple will start selling high resolution files, ever.

[asdf1000]

I don't believe Apple or any other major / global streaming service will offer high resolution music any time soon. I also don't believe Apple will start selling high resolution files, ever.

Fair point. If they had the ability to somehow reduce the file size of Hi-Res music significantly for Apple Music streaming or iTunes downloads, don't you think they would use that to sell hi-res Beats headphones?

 

Especially with the news they're dropping the headphone jacks from their phones.

 

There's a business case for them to do it, no?

 

It'll be interesting to see if/how it all pans out.

 

 

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[Don Hills]

I don't believe Apple or any other major / global streaming service will offer high resolution music any time soon. I also don't believe Apple will start selling high resolution files, ever.

 

You seem quite sure about this, Can you share the reasoning that led you to these conclusions?

 

(EDIT: I don't have an opinion either way, I'm not interested in debating the points, I'm just curious.)

[The Computer Audiophile]

Fair point. If they had the ability to somehow reduce the file size of Hi-Res music significantly for Apple Music streaming or iTunes downloads, don't you think they would use that to sell hi-res Beats headphones?

 

Especially with the news they're dropping the headphone jacks from their phones.

 

There's a business case for them to do it, no?

 

It'll be interesting to see if/how it all pans out.

 

 

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I don't believe there is a strong business case. High resolution is a solution looking for a problem with respect to Apple's customer base. In fact it would cause way more issues as well.

[The Computer Audiophile]

You seem quite sure about this, Can you share the reasoning that led you to these conclusions?

 

(EDIT: I don't have an opinion either way, I'm not interested in debating the points, I'm just curious.)

Hi Don - Here is my editorial from 2014 ~> Computer Audiophile - High Resolution Audio Isn't Coming Soon From Apple

[asdf1000]

I don't believe there is a strong business case. High resolution is a solution looking for a problem with respect to Apple's customer base. In fact it would cause way more issues as well.

I would agree with you but Apple has a famous mantra: *"A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them.”

 

I see a business case to sell new jack-less phones and new Beats hi-res head-phones.

 

Unless someone has an Apple contact it's all a guessing game. Even though part of me is sceptical they'd ever do it just like you, I secretly hope they do, after reading that DAR MQA article.

 

The more hi-res streaming offerings, the better for us as consumers.

 

But I agree with you, the hi-res market isn't that big.

 

 

 

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[wdw]

This is seriously OT.

[asdf1000]

This is seriously OT.

Apologies. I thought talking about potential competitor hi-res offerings was relevant to the topic of the potential MQA monopoly. Sorry again.

 

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[esldude]

Fair point. If they had the ability to somehow reduce the file size of Hi-Res music significantly for Apple Music streaming or iTunes downloads, don't you think they would use that to sell hi-res Beats headphones?

 

 

As there are no hires Beats, no. So no there is no bizness case for Apple.

 

 

 

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[asdf1000]

As there are no hires Beats, no. So no there is no bizness case for Apple.

 

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Computer Audiophile mobile app

Not yet. Once they drop they the headphone jack from the phone, there might be a case? Obviously not with the current headphones.

 

These rumours aren't new btw: http://iphone.appleinsider.com/articles/15/12/20/apple-music-reportedly-preparing-hi-res-audio-streaming-for-2016

 

As I said earlier I just hope there is competition to MQA, to bring hi-res streaming to us, whether it's Apple or not.

 

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[duxservit]

I don't believe there is a strong business case. High resolution is a solution looking for a problem with respect to Apple's customer base. In fact it would cause way more issues as well.

 

Thanks Chris - this is in fact one of the things I don't get with the MQA strategy.

 

If Apple -- who has the vast service infrastructure and touches the consumer through millions of devices they control -- do not see a revenue ROI from selling hi-res (say true 24/96), then MQA's "demand" is very unrealistic. I say unrealistic because it requires changes (a lot of changes) to the music supply chain with perhaps not-so-great improvement to the ordinary iPhone carrying non-audiophile user.

[esldude]

Not yet. Once they drop they the headphone jack from the phone, there might be a case? Obviously not with the current headphones.

 

 

I think Beats can rehab their quality rep just about as soon as Bose is known for highest quality among the most discerning listeners.

 

 

 

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[asdf1000]

I think Beats can rehab their quality rep just about as soon as Bose is known for highest quality among the most discerning listeners.

 

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Computer Audiophile mobile app

 

Haha I definitely don't want to turn this into a Bose or Beats bashing thread since that would definitely be going off topic.

 

But I fully agree with you, that this is all about the highest quality sound for all of us on this forum and similar forums, that are interested in this kind of stuff.

 

I'm thinking of getting a Bluesound Node 2, not soley for the MQA compatibility, but that's a bonus that it's already supported. So when Tidal enable MQA music it's all ready to go.

 

But MQA's non-hostile takeover strategy is definitely ambitious, as others have pointed out here.

[esldude]

Haha I definitely don't want to turn this into a Bose or Beats bashing thread since that would definitely be going off topic.

 

But I fully agree with you, that this is all about the highest quality sound for all of us on this forum and similar forums, that are interested in this kind of stuff.

 

I'm thinking of getting a Bluesound Node 2, not soley for the MQA compatibility, but that's a bonus that it's already supported. So when Tidal enable MQA music it's all ready to go.

 

But MQA's non-hostile takeover strategy is definitely ambitious, as others have pointed out here.

 

Okay a non-brand related idea.

 

Beware of Greeks bearing gifts.

[asdf1000]

Okay a non-brand related idea.

 

Beware of Greeks bearing gifts.

Ok mate. Can't really have a conversation about MQA and hi-res streaming without mentioning the current and future players?

 

I'll do my part and keep it cordial and on topic. Does anyone think there will be any other players in hi-res streaming specifically, over the next 12 months, other than MQA and their partners? Or will it be an MQA only field in hi-res streaming?

 

 

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[firedog]

The MQA people seem to be doing a great job alienating their potential customers. We are the ones that will (or won't) be buying their product. We are the consumers, aren't we? Yet they do nothing to try to get us on board. We have been told that we don't know what we are talking about when we question the technical aspects of MQA. I guess they think we are all ignorant and should just swallow their pill because they know what's best for us.

 

Don't think so. Their long term plan can't be based on audiophiles, because we aren't market makers. More likely it is based on recording and streaming being done with MQA, which will make it easy to market all sorts of HW as "MQA ready". Not necessarily audiophile HW.

[Paul R]

Ah- you joke. But among the non-audiophile population, people who consider themselves discerning do consider Bose to be the highest quality. Note carefully the audience I identified, not only because it excludes audiophiles, but because it includes people who "wanna-be" without the work involved.

 

I do think Apple would do high res streaming in a split second, if the recording industry were not fighting them tooth and nail.

 

-Paul

 

 

I think Beats can rehab their quality rep just about as soon as Bose is known for highest quality among the most discerning listeners.

 

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[Paul R]

Don't think so. Their long term plan can't be based on audiophiles, because we aren't market makers. More likely it is based on recording and streaming being done with MQA, which will make it easy to market all sorts of HW as "MQA ready". Not necessarily audiophile HW.

 

 

Exactly! The real money making customers for MQA are not the end-users, it is the recoding studios, pro-audio equipment makers, recording industry, music publishers, and etc. The end result is higher prices for everyone, and a hardware lockout that will look like Dolby did on tape decks in the 1970s and early 80's.

 

The difference being in the magnitude of the cost increase, I think. YMMV.

 

-Paul

[Axiom05]

Don't think so. Their long term plan can't be based on audiophiles, because we aren't market makers. More likely it is based on recording and streaming being done with MQA, which will make it easy to market all sorts of HW as "MQA ready". Not necessarily audiophile HW.

 

You may be right but that just makes me even more confused and concerned. Right now they seem to be pushing hard to court the audiophile press with claims of sonic improvement. They are also showing up at high-end audio shows with $100K+ systems to demonstrate how great MQA sounds. Do you really think anyone other than audiophiles care about hi-res streaming? None of the "masses" will care anything about this. My brother didn't even know about Sonos or the fact that you can download music files from anywhere other than iTunes and Amazon! These people will know nothing about MQA and I suspect care even less. It just isn't on their radar. So if MQA don't really care about audiophiles, then MQA isn't really about SQ. Then the goal really is a "take-over" of the industry so that MQA may be incorporated into every aspect regardless if anyone wants it or even cares.

[Musicophile]

I typically keep out of these discussions, but here are my 2 cents:

 

MQA is the betamax of audio.

 

Even if it may be better (and some seem to believe it is), it is all about getting an installed base quickly enough.

 

I see very little incentive in fragmented market of hundreds of Hifi and computer audio manufacturers to adopt such a new system, when it is still unclear to most of us what the exact problem is MQA is trying to solve.

 

My prediction: in 5 years MQA will be even less relevant than DSD, which in spite of quite broad implementation on the device side, and the fact of not being a closed system, just suffers from lack of raw material.

 

The only factor that could change this is if Meridian gets several big record companies to use MQA, and even the record market is probably too fragmented these days.

[asdf1000]

I typically keep out of these discussions, but here are my 2 cents:

 

MQA is the betamax of audio.

 

Even if it may be better (and some seem to believe it is), it is all about getting an installed base quickly enough.

 

I see very little incentive in fragmented market of hundreds of Hifi and computer audio manufacturers to adopt such a new system, when it is still unclear to most of us what the exact problem is MQA is trying to solve.

 

My prediction: in 5 years MQA will be even less relevant than DSD, which in spite of quite broad implementation on the device side, and the fact of not being a closed system, just suffers from lack of raw material.

 

The only factor that could change this is if Meridian gets several big record companies to use MQA, and even the record market is probably too fragmented these days.

 

Completely agree with you. I think the problem trying to be solved is making hi-res music streaming and downloading easier (smaller file size). But their attempt to make hi-res streaming easier is complicated by the need for additional decoding gear for us, the end users. I personally think giving MQA 5 years is quite generous to be honest.

 

Can anyone see any other hi-res streaming options coming up in the next 12 months? Or is hi-res streaming overall (not only MQA) going nowhere, due to the tiny market it would serve?

[AlexMetalFi]

I hear you, but that's not the issue I am talking about. People want MQA to open up its intellectual property, yet those people who want them to do this, won't open up their own intellectual property.

 

Open does not mean free though.

 

Blu-ray is open, but not free. So is MP3. So are most standards.

 

MQA however is not a standard in its current form. It is, as I understand Mr. Stuart, a set of proprietary specifications he wants the whole industry to adopt because he claims it results in a better playback experience than the current paradigm. And that very well maybe.

 

The point of my piece however was to take a look at what he is proposing at a macrolevel, and to try to better understand what it would look like in a mostly MQA world where the entire digital audio supply chain depends on one company's technology to produce, distribute, and play back content.

 

I do think it takes the walled garden approach to a whole new level because unlike in say the Apple case, I can leave their garden with all of my content and still get an equivalent listening experience. The same can not be said of MQA.

[Musicophile]

 

Can anyone see any other hi-res streaming options coming up in the next 12 months? Or is hi-res streaming overall (not only MQA) going nowhere, due to the tiny market it would serve?

 

 

 

Hi res streaming is technically already there, with A+ I can stream all my Qobuz and Highresaudio purchases in the native format up to 24/192. This works flawlessly, without any need for MQA at all. And at least in Europe, bandwidth limitations are not really an issue (compared to Netflix, we're talking peanuts anyhow).

 

But no, I don't think this will take off any time soon

 

For two reasons:

 

1) Economics: nobody has figured out how to make money even out of MP3 streaming (see Spotify). Furthermore, high-res downloads are a very small but very high margin market that probably nobody wants to give up anytime soon

2) Size of opportunity: even for lossless streaming the customer numbers are tiny. It can only get worse for Highres

[beetlemania]

Good discussion here. I'm glad to know that not everyone has been infected with the MQA-strain!

[asdf1000]

Hi res streaming is technically already there, with A+ I can stream all my Qobuz and Highresaudio purchases in the native format up to 24/192. This works flawlessly, without any need for MQA at all. And at least in Europe, bandwidth limitations are not really an issue (compared to Netflix, we're talking peanuts anyhow).

 

But no, I don't think this will take off any time soon

 

For two reasons:

 

1) Economics: nobody has figured out how to make money even out of MP3 streaming (see Spotify). Furthermore, high-res downloads are a very small but very high margin market that probably nobody wants to give up anytime soon

2) Size of opportunity: even for lossless streaming the customer numbers are tiny. It can only get worse for Highres

 

Hi mate, yes I forgot about Qobuz and Highresaudio. We're not as lucky here in Australia yet!

 

I completely agree with the reasons you mention actually. Just a hypothetical here... what if Apple flicked the switch on hi-res music next week to get people to get the new iPhone 7 (that's missing a headphone jack) and new Hi-Res Beats headphones. While we may or may not be fans of Beats headphones or their phones here, it wouldn't matter. There are enough of those iPhone and Beats customers out there right, like in the millions?

 

You're right of course, that Spotify are losing money but they're not in the hardware business like an Apple. Hi-Res just for the sake of music doesn't make sense business wise, for all the reasons you mention. But to sell more of the hardware that a lot of people already buy (phones and headphones)? Maybe there's a case for that?

 

A tiny part of me wishes it does happen, even if I agree with you that it probably won't. Not because I want the Beats headphones but because HD Tracks is sending me broke! ;=)

 

I also don't have the broadband speed limitation like you, so I'd be happy if Qobuz and Highresaudio became more available worldwide.