Vinyl v Digital: The Thirty-Five Year Con

[Hailey]

It only makes sense if you buy recordings not music. For millions of tunes you get the recording you're given, there is no choice of re-master.

 

In this respect, whilst not wanting to argue, you are not really commenting for the majority, I get this is an audiophile forum, but the point of a truly great system is to play everything brilliantly.

 

Recordings after the late 80s will have progressively been recorded digitally before transfer to vinyl. I spent a long time in that 'business' - in the 90s- and know the procedures well.

 

Everything I do now is 24/48 broadcast standard but that's only because it is an industry requirement, not due to any preference of mine.

 

Redbook sounds amazing on the right kit, it just does. The problem is there are not nearly enough optimised digital systems out there for people to hear its potential - ask the few that have managed to optimise USB properly or those who have moved to AOIP.

 

Even if higher bit depth is marginally better, Redbook still sounds fab on these digital rigs.

 

I should add that it's easier to make an awful digital recording/master, than it is an analogue one, because in the main analogue master tape tends to makes everything sound beautiful - and digital as we are now finally learning is extremely fragile.

 

Note that, the Nagra D digital recorder also made stunning Redbook recordings.

 

Most of today's music is 'in the box' with most of/all of the production process being computerised.

 

Just my 2p

 

;-)

 

Assuming that's true, you're reinforcing my point. All that effort, just to get RedBook to sound better than vinyl. If, indeed, that is possible.

 

I should add, again, that it also comes down to your choice of music. Something that sounds "amazing" for pop or rock or jazz may well sound just blech when it comes to Brahms' German Requiem.

 

At the Chicago show, the Goldmund guy was showing off his $100k plus pile with RedBook. It's amazing, he said.

 

What was he playing? Light jazz.

 

Phhhhhht.

[r_w]

I not so sure others will read what I posted that way. As in you can't legitimately slate Redbook just becuase you can't get it to work for you.

 

A lot of effort went into setting up my Linn LP12, Zeta Arm and Ortofon Jubilee, which is duly trounced by my current digital setup.

 

Re: digital replay, you posted on the JCAT/Intona thread "expecting no difference" and have been asked by Elberoth if you have tried it. I try not to comment on anything that I do not have direct experience of.

 

We ought to leave it there now so that we don't fall out, you're probably a decent fella - it's fine to have differing opinions, it makes the world go round.

 

To summarise: I completely respect your right to prefer high res and vinyl, but it's not really cool to blanket 'piss on Redbook'.

 

The AOIP/Rednet guys are currently doing cartwheels with the results they are getting.

 

;-)

 

 

Assuming that's true, you're reinforcing my point. All that effort, just to get RedBook to sound better than vinyl. If, indeed, that is possible.

 

I should add, again, that it also comes down to your choice of music. Something that sounds "amazing" for pop or rock or jazz may well sound just blech when it comes to Brahms' German Requiem.

 

At the Chicago show, the Goldmund guy was showing off his $100k plus pile with RedBook. It's amazing, he said.

 

What was he playing? Light jazz.

 

Phhhhhht.

[Hailey]

I not so sure others will read what I posted that way. As in you can't legitimately slate Redbook just becuase you can't get it to work for you.

 

A lot of effort went into setting up my Linn LP12, Zeta Arm and Ortofon Jubilee, which is duly trounced by my current digital setup.

 

Re: digital replay, you posted on the JCAT/Intona thread "expecting no difference" and have been asked by Elberoth if you have tried it. I try not to comment on anything that I do not have direct experience of.

 

We ought to leave it there now so that we don't fall out, you're probably a decent fella - it's fine to have differing opinions, it makes the world go round.

 

To summarise: I completely respect your right to prefer high res and vinyl, but it's not really cool to blanket 'piss on Redbook'.

 

The AOIP/Rednet guys are currently doing cartwheels with the results they are getting.

 

;-)

 

I feel like I'm in an echo chamber here.

 

Again, what kind of music are you listening to on RedBook?

 

RedBook appears to be fine for pop, rock, electronic music of any kind, jazz.

 

But classical? Sorry, no. Not to my ears, anyway.

 

If the Goldmund guy couldn't get it to work with $100k worth of equipment (in my opinion, not his), well, what does it take?

 

I think one big problem here is that the vast majority of my listening has been to live performances of large ensemble acoustical music. So my standards are higher than RedBook...

 

....ONLY WHEN IT COMES TO LARGE ENSEMBLE ACOUSTICAL MUSIC.

 

Sorry to shout but that nuance seems to get lost.

 

As for the Intona, I'm not sure what point you're making: I own an Intona. I have no ground loop problem. I don't hear any difference there.

[wgscott]

I feel like I'm in an echo chamber here.

 

Again, what kind of music are you listening to on RedBook?

 

Perhaps you are in an echo chamber, since this is the same sort of snippy dismissal you used when in another thread I posted that I heard no difference between Audirvana in stand-alone vs. iTunes-integrated mode. If you think in terms of these rigid clichés, don't act so surprised when you don't get universal agreement.

 

You don't need to lock the caps key. It isn't a case of not grasping what you are claiming. It is a question of not believing your conclusion is valid. Compelling evidence, rather than screaming, is what would change my mind.

[Hailey]

Perhaps you are in an echo chamber, since this is the same sort of snippy dismissal you used when in another thread I posted that I heard no difference between Audirvana in stand-alone vs. iTunes-integrated mode. If you think in terms of these rigid clichés, don't act so surprised when you don't get universal agreement.

 

Would you kindly post said "snippy dismissal." I have idea what you're talking about.

 

I should add, I don't seek, nor expect, "universal agreement." But I do like to make certain we understand each other's parameters of discussion, else how can we make sense of what anyone is saying?

 

Also, just to confirm...you find my claim that the sq demands of Mahler are greater than those of, say, a Led Zeppelin album to be invalid?

 

I didn't even realize that assertion was controversial.

[r_w]

Music is music, even some of the better produced pop tunes have 100 or more channels in the mix and only the best systems can expose all of these sub-parts. I understand that large orchestras have big dynamic range but Redbook's range is already massive.

 

I listen to whatever music takes my fancy, not really any one particular genre, have circa 18,000 to choose from, covering just about all of the key genres.

 

I don't think it's the case that any specific type of music can be deemed as 'Redbook incompatible', in fact that concept actually sounds a bit daft if I think of it for too long.

 

If you have the Intona, i would highly recommend powering it with a split lead using an LPS and even better, see if you can lift the USB ground after handshake - that was a huge SQ step up for me.

 

Anyway, we were meant to be leaving it there.

 

;-)

 

 

Would you kindly post said "snippy dismissal." I have idea what you're talking about.

 

 

Also, just to confirm...you find my claim that the sq demands of Mahler are greater than those of, say, a Led Zeppelin album to be invalid?

 

I didn't even realize that assertion was controversial.

[Hailey]

Music is music, even some of the better produced pop tunes have 100 or more channels in the mix and only the best systems can expose all of these sub-parts. I understand that large orchestras have big dynamic range but Redbook's range is already massive.

 

I listen to whatever music takes my fancy, not really any one particular genre, have circa 18,000 to choose from, covering just about all of the key genres.

 

I don't think it's the case that any specific type of music can be deemed as 'Redbook incompatible', in fact that concept actually sounds a bit daft if I think of it for too long.

 

If you have the Intona, i would highly recommend powering it with a split lead using an LPS and even better, see if you can lift the USB ground after handshake - that was a huge SQ step up for me.

 

Anyway, we were meant to be leaving it there.

 

;-)

 

I'll buy that. Obviously, you have much more experience than I do, and I'm willing to defer to that.

 

I haven't experience it myself but I have no real basis upon which to say it's impossible.

 

As for Intona, could you parse that out a bit more for an audio equipment dummy?

 

A split lead, meaning a split UPS...with the power side connected to an LPS?

 

Ok I think I'm with you there...

 

But when you say "see if you can lift the USB ground after handshake" you lost me...

 

Could you break that down a bit?

[wgscott]

Would you kindly post said "snippy dismissal." I have idea what you're talking about.

 

Freudian slip? http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/audirvana-plus-itunes-integrated-mode-vs-straight-audirvana-29631/#post576135

 

I didn't even realize that assertion was controversial.

 

That is often the case with religious zealots.

 

Instead of Mahler vs. Led Zeppelin, why don't we take a more sensible example.

 

I have 3 versions of this. The one in the middle sounds by far the best, but of the three, it alone is redbook. Why? Because factors like the personality of the conductor and the orchestra have more to do with impact than redbook vs. higher res.

 

 

So in this case your assertion isn't so obviously correct that it was beyond being controversial.

[Hailey]

Freudian slip? http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/audirvana-plus-itunes-integrated-mode-vs-straight-audirvana-29631/#post576135

 

 

 

That is often the case with religious zealots.

 

Instead of Mahler vs. Led Zeppelin, why don't we take a more sensible example.

 

I have 3 versions of this. The one in the middle sounds by far the best, but of the three, it alone is redbook. Why? Because factors like the personality of the conductor and the orchestra have more to do with impact than redbook vs. higher res.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]28741[/ATTACH]

 

So in this case your assertion isn't so obviously correct that it was beyond being controversial.

 

Ok for the life of me, I did not intend that to be snippy, and I'm sorry if it came off that way. Truly.

 

I've felt that a missing element in SQ discussions is the type of music to which people are inclined to listen. So my inquiry was nothing but an attempt to gather additional data with regard to your response re: iTunes vs Audirvana. There are plenty of things that make no difference to me (jitterbug, for example, and, so far, Intona), but other things do, and I'm always looking to separate the real from the placebo.

 

Now I see you're a Berlioz fan. I have those recordings, too. The Colin Davis performance is criminally dull. The Abbado performance is better...but now we're no longer talking SQ but musicality. That's fine.

 

But if we're talking pure musicality, allow me to direct your attention to the 1973 Ozawa BSO Fantastique and the 1958 (I think) Munch BSO Fantastique.

 

No one plays Berlioz like the BSO. In fact, to the best of my knowledge, the BSO is the only orchestra to have bespoke bells used specifically and only for Symphonie Fantastique (other orchestra use chimes or God know's what).

 

By the way, if the performance itself is all that matters, permit me to recommend this 1955 kinescope of Munch conducting the BSO in Harvard's Sanders Theatre.

 

Warning: This performance has destroyed all other performances of the Fantastique for me. After experiencing this, every other performance has seemed limp, pallid. (Except for Ozawa's BSO recording. It's not as nuts--nothing is--but it's still satisfying)

 

Check out this link to the last movement. Go to 6:30. Watch Munch literally whip himself, and his players, into a frenzy.

 

And, my God, those woodwinds...

 

[wgscott]

Ok, I will check those out (but maybe not via youtube!). Thanks for the recs.

 

 

The CSO/Solti version is redbook. If redbook is such an atrocious con, then it would not be possible for it to sound good. (If a high res version becomes available, I would immediately purchase it, just on the chance it could sound even better).

 

Edit: I just found this on Amazon: Berlioz: Symphonie fantastique Hybrid SACD - DSD $15. (Ozawa BSO)

 

Do you happen to know if it is available for purchase as a DSD download anywhere>

[Hailey]

Ok, I will check those out (but maybe not via youtube!). Thanks for the recs.

 

 

The CSO/Solti version is redbook. If redbook is such an atrocious con, then it would not be possible for it to sound good. (If a high res version becomes available, I would immediately purchase it, just on the chance it could sound even better).

 

Well the only place I've found that kinescope is on YouTube. As far as kinescopes go, it's top-drawer. I don't know that I've seen a clearer one.

 

The Ozawa/BSO recording is DG...but it's pretty darn good. Qobuz, I think, offers a high res transfer of the original analogue master.

 

Otherwise the RedBook transfer is quite decent.

 

As for "atrocious con"....I would argue that "perfect sound forever" was, indeed, a con. But I reserve modifiers like "atrocious" for acts that truly merit such a description, like the Holocaust.

[wgscott]

Is the Ozawa/BSO version not this one?

 

https://www.amazon.com/Berlioz-fantastique-Boston-Symphony-Orchestra/dp/B00SKEZ8EQ

 

Sorry, I just figured out it is a remaster/SACD of the original one from DG.

[Hailey]

Is the Ozawa/BSO version not this one?

 

https://www.amazon.com/Berlioz-fantastique-Boston-Symphony-Orchestra/dp/B00SKEZ8EQ

 

Ah, yes. There's the high-res transfer.

 

That's it.

 

You won't be sorry.

[r_w]

I'm not sure if anything is available yet that does this so I had to DIY it.

 

I soldered a tiny DIP switch across the (cut) ground wire of my own made USB lead (I always remove the 5v rail also).

 

Then after USB handshaking the DIP switch can be set to off, thus breaking the ground link.

 

I have a large hunch that most of USB's troubles lie with 'nasties' travelling through the ground.

 

John Swenson advises to check the current across the ground, by the points either side of the DIP switch just to make sure there isn't a high current leakage that might cause trouble with the DAC, mine measured an inconsequential voltage, so was fine.

 

A few others here have tried this and much favour USB ground lift.

 

I understand, if that all sounds a bit of a hassle... maybe someone will solve the ground issue in a product soon.

 

 

 

 

But when you say "see if you can lift the USB ground after handshake" you lost me...

 

Could you break that down a bit?

[Hailey]

I'm not sure if anything is available yet that does this so I had to DIY it.

 

I soldered a tiny DIP switch across the (cut) ground wire of my own made USB lead (I always remove the 5v rail also).

 

Then after USB handshaking the DIP switch can be set to off, thus breaking the ground link.

 

I have a large hunch that most of USB's troubles lie with 'nasties' travelling through the ground.

 

John Swenson advises to check the current across the ground, by the points either side of the DIP switch just to make sure there isn't a high current leakage that might cause trouble with the DAC, mine measured an inconsequential voltage, so was fine.

 

A few others here have tried this and much favour USB ground lift.

 

I understand, if that all sounds a bit of a hassle... maybe someone will solve the ground issue in a product soon.

 

That's very helpful, actually. I think I can follow that...

[Norton]

The CSO/Solti version is redbook. If redbook is such an atrocious con, then it would not be possible for it to sound good

 

Maybe you know it already, but if not, the Solti/CSO Mahler symphony cycle is one of the best adverts for RBCD sound I know.

I think the box set is about £25 at the moment. I have various SACD, DSD and 24/192 versions of 2, 5 &. 6 but it's the Solti set that I go back to (but then again they are

mostly transfers of exemplary DECCA sxl analogue recordings that sound even better in their "native" format....)

[Fitzcaraldo215]

 

As for "atrocious con"....I would argue that "perfect sound forever" was, indeed, a con. But I reserve modifiers like "atrocious" for acts that truly merit such a description, like the Holocaust.

 

It was a semi-con. The got the forever part right, in a sense. Music recorded or mastered to digital will probably be with us forever, even if the silver discs are no longer playable. Digital archives can be maintained to last forever in ever more compact and reliable form. Analog archives have been and are vanishing.

 

It was the "perfect" part that they overreached on. But, of course, no medium is perfect.

[Hailey]

Is the Ozawa/BSO version not this one?

 

https://www.amazon.com/Berlioz-fantastique-Boston-Symphony-Orchestra/dp/B00SKEZ8EQ

 

Sorry, I just figured out it is a remaster/SACD of the original one from DG.

 

Why isn't this available as a download?

 

Ugh.

[wgscott]

sorry, misread. I didn't see you were referring to Mahler.

[Vincent1234]

What fiasco? What embarrassment? There is controversy by some naysayers, most who have never tried CD Stoplight.

 

Actually, the CD Stoplight green pen works and improves everything I said I does. From my article you posted The Greening of SACDs, (gulp) CDs and other digital madness

 

"The first thing I did was play one of my favorite SACDs: Virgil Thomson's The River and The Plow That Broke the Plains - Leopold Stokowski conducting The Symphony of the Air. Then I removed the SACD, treated it with CD Stoplight and waited the required 5 minutes for the ink to dry and put it back in the player. Right away I noticed a considerable increase in volume! Once I lowered the volume to a level comparable to the before treatment level I also noticed the bass was warmer, the performing space was "airier", the outline of the instruments seemed more defined and the dynamic attacks were sharper. It appears to smooth out the sound, increase ambiance and make percussive attacks more exciting. All this from a green ink ring around the outside of the disc, amazing!

"

 

Also the SHM-SACDs and other Japanese green discs, I've heard sound excellent.

 

After rereading my article, I think I will try CD Stoplight again. It is a shame I had to sell all my physical formats and the equipment to play them on to keep from being homeless. But now that my finances are better I have repurchased most of my favorites as well as new discoveries. I didn't purchase CD Stoplight again after starting my new collection, however it is still being sold all over the internet. My reason for not trying it again is it is a pain to apply, as I described in the same article:

 

"Warning, applying CD Stoplight can sometimes be a royal pain. Make sure the disc is clean and if it has a smooth edge the ink goes on quite well. But not all discs have smooth edges, both CDs and SACDs are basically sandwiches and sometimes the bottom edge does not line up exactly with the top edge and when they do line up correctly sometimes they have rough edges making them had to coat with ink, requiring multiple treatments. When you start treating one of these problem discs you will start cursing both me and AudioPrism, I know I did, that is until I played the disc, it was worth the trouble! Also make sure you have a couple of wet paper towels and a couple of CD cloths to clean up messes and boo-boos. You will have plenty of both! If ink goes where it does not belong it comes off easy with water, that is before it dries."

 

 

 

His are not claims but listening experiences, subjectivists seldom make claims. We also say each person must listen for themselves. However, my listening experiences are very similar to his, thus why I linked this post. There are no errors in either of our listening experiences.

 

 

 

No, I believe John Curl is correct! We can only measure a very small percent of what we hear. And that small percent includes the most crudest of parameters such as frequency response, dynamic range, signal to noise ratio and dynamic range. The stuff that makes music enjoyable still cannot be measured, such as lack of listener fatigue, smoothness, imaging, timbre accuracy, and at least a dozen other music parameters we still have no way to measure.

 

Why do only objectivists bring up magic dust? Subjectivists accept music the way it sounds and aims to obtain the most accurate and pleasing equipment and recordings within their budget. Wonder why that is?

Agree on the CD Stoplight findings. Don't ask me how, but it DOES work. ?

 

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[gmgraves]

What fiasco? What embarrassment? There is controversy by some naysayers, most who have never tried CD Stoplight.

 

Actually, the CD Stoplight green pen works and improves everything I said I does. From my article you posted The Greening of SACDs, (gulp) CDs and other digital madness

"The first thing I did was play one of my favorite SACDs: Virgil Thomson's The River and The Plow That Broke the Plains - Leopold Stokowski conducting The Symphony of the Air. Then I removed the SACD, treated it with CD Stoplight and waited the required 5 minutes for the ink to dry and put it back in the player. Right away I noticed a considerable increase in volume! Once I lowered the volume to a level comparable to the before treatment level I also noticed the bass was warmer, the performing space was "airier", the outline of the instruments seemed more defined and the dynamic attacks were sharper. It appears to smooth out the sound, increase ambiance and make percussive attacks more exciting. All this from a green ink ring around the outside of the disc, amazing!

"

 

Also the SHM-SACDs and other Japanese green discs, I've heard sound excellent.

 

What about those discs in which the silver coating that's on the top of the disc, wraps around to the edges. Lots of CDs are made that way you know...

 

OTOH, when the pen first appeared, I did a bunch of DBTs using identical CD players with two identical CDs; one is treated with CD Stoplight, and the other was a normal, straight-out-of-the-box copy. When that was done, the great, and profound differences I had heard when I first treated my discs disappeared in an instant!

[Fitzcaraldo215]

What fiasco? What embarrassment? There is controversy by some naysayers, most who have never tried CD Stoplight.

 

Actually, the CD Stoplight green pen works and improves everything I said I does. From my article you posted The Greening of SACDs, (gulp) CDs and other digital madness

"The first thing I did was play one of my favorite SACDs: Virgil Thomson's The River and The Plow That Broke the Plains - Leopold Stokowski conducting The Symphony of the Air. Then I removed the SACD, treated it with CD Stoplight and waited the required 5 minutes for the ink to dry and put it back in the player. Right away I noticed a considerable increase in volume! Once I lowered the volume to a level comparable to the before treatment level I also noticed the bass was warmer, the performing space was "airier", the outline of the instruments seemed more defined and the dynamic attacks were sharper. It appears to smooth out the sound, increase ambiance and make percussive attacks more exciting. All this from a green ink ring around the outside of the disc, amazing!

"

 

Also the SHM-SACDs and other Japanese green discs, I've heard sound excellent.

 

After rereading my article, I think I will try CD Stoplight again. It is a shame I had to sell all my physical formats and the equipment to play them on to keep from being homeless. But now that my finances are better I have repurchased most of my favorites as well as new discoveries. I didn't purchase CD Stoplight again after starting my new collection, however it is still being sold all over the internet. My reason for not trying it again is it is a pain to apply, as I described in the same article:

 

"Warning, applying CD Stoplight can sometimes be a royal pain. Make sure the disc is clean and if it has a smooth edge the ink goes on quite well. But not all discs have smooth edges, both CDs and SACDs are basically sandwiches and sometimes the bottom edge does not line up exactly with the top edge and when they do line up correctly sometimes they have rough edges making them had to coat with ink, requiring multiple treatments. When you start treating one of these problem discs you will start cursing both me and AudioPrism, I know I did, that is until I played the disc, it was worth the trouble! Also make sure you have a couple of wet paper towels and a couple of CD cloths to clean up messes and boo-boos. You will have plenty of both! If ink goes where it does not belong it comes off easy with water, that is before it dries."

 

 

 

His are not claims but listening experiences, subjectivists seldom make claims. We also say each person must listen for themselves. However, my listening experiences are very similar to his, thus why I linked this post. There are no errors in either of our listening experiences.

 

 

 

No, I believe John Curl is correct! We can only measure a very small percent of what we hear. And that small percent includes the most crudest of parameters such as frequency response, dynamic range, signal to noise ratio and dynamic range. The stuff that makes music enjoyable still cannot be measured, such as lack of listener fatigue, smoothness, imaging, timbre accuracy, and at least a dozen other music parameters we still have no way to measure.

 

Why do only objectivists bring up magic dust? Subjectivists accept music the way it sounds and aims to obtain the most accurate and pleasing equipment and recordings within their budget. Wonder why that is?

 

Well there ya go! Yet another reason why digital is superior to vinyl. Green pens have never made any difference on a vinyl LP, but they make all the difference in the world on spinning silver digital discs. I am going to start trying to see if I can get inside the hard drive cases on my NAS so that I can apply the green magic to the edges of those thingies, too. Maybe that will make a big difference. Hey, John Curl is on my side.

[Teresa]

It only makes sense if you buy recordings not music. For millions of tunes you get the recording you're given, there is no choice of re-master.

 

In this respect, whilst not wanting to argue, you are not really commenting for the majority, I get this is an audiophile forum, but the point of a truly great system is to play everything brilliantly.

 

Recordings after the late 80s will have progressively been recorded digitally before transfer to vinyl. I spent a long time in that 'business' - in the 90s- and know the procedures well.

 

Everything I do now is 24/48 broadcast standard but that's only because it is an industry requirement, not due to any preference of mine.

 

Redbook sounds amazing on the right kit, it just does. The problem is there are not nearly enough optimized digital systems out there for people to hear its potential - ask the few that have managed to optimize USB properly or those who have moved to AOIP.

 

Even if higher bit depth is marginally better, Redbook still sounds fab on these digital rigs.

 

I should add that it's easier to make an awful digital recording/master, than it is an analogue one, because in the main analogue master tape tends to makes everything sound beautiful - and digital as we are now finally learning is extremely fragile.

 

Note that, the Nagra D digital recorder also made stunning Redbook recordings.

 

Most of today's music is 'in the box' with most of/all of the production process being computerized.

 

Just my 2p

 

;-)

 

Thanks for the response, however I think we are talking about different things.

 

The millions of analog LPs I am referring to are the ones pressed before 1980, most of which are out of print and found at used record stores, eBay and online LP sellers. Most of those are from the major labels, perhaps less than one percent were actually the audiophile LPs I preferred when I owned LPs.

 

I used Reference Recordings PURE ANALOG LPs of the 1980s and 1990s as a example of engineers still recording in analog after PCM equipment was made available to studios and peoples homes. Back in the 1980’s and 1990’s Keith Johnson, Reference Recordings owner and engineer recorded in both analog and digital at the same time. He used his “focused gap” analog recorder for LP release, and his modified PCM recorder for CD release. Nowadays he records in 24 bit 176.4kHz for all releases including HDCD, SACD and LP. And on Reference Recordings Fresh! DSD.

 

Classical labels started recording and remastering in digital the earliest, Denon Japan in 1976, Telarc in 1978 and the major labels shortly after that. It was around the mid-1980's before rock recordings started to be made in digital.

 

So basically, what I was saying is that LPs were invented in 1948 and were analog until studios started buying and using digital equipment, well over a million analog titles.

 

This is a weird coincidence but I am listening to Lori Lieberman's Home of Whispers 24k Gold CD from Pope Music recorded with the Nagra D digital 2-track recorder you mentioned. It cost me $1.80 brand new from Music Direct. It sounds good for a CD, but it doesn't come close to the sonics of audiophile SACDs, audiophile 24-bit and DSD downloads. Pope Music is an audiophile label, however I do occasionally buy major label recordings if they are dirt cheap and something I must have and not available from an audiophile label.

 

I finally can now enjoy redbook CDs without too much listener fatigue, and sometimes they sound very good. But amazing is not a word I would use, I guess I never had the right kit? I would say many of my high resolution downloads and SACDs sound amazing, especially the Opus 3 5.6MHz DSD music files and the Reference Recordings 24/176.4kHz PCM HRx discs.

 

I recognize I am in a small minority preferring audiophile recordings, which are audiophile from the microphones to finished product. Second best to me are audiophile remasters of major labels recordings.

[Teresa]

What about those discs in which the silver coating that's on the top of the disc, wraps around to the edges. Lots of CDs are made that way you know...

 

I have one of those. Are you saying the green pen would be unnecessary on those?

 

OTOH, when the pen first appeared, I did a bunch of DBTs using identical CD players with two identical CDs; one is treated with CD Stoplight, and the other was a normal, straight-out-of-the-box copy. When that was done, the great, and profound differences I had heard when I first treated my discs disappeared in an instant!

 

Interesting, George. Could it be AB'ing where the problem is? I know I'm not able to hear most differences, even some very large ones when AB'ing, sighted or blind. I have read that some people can train themselves on what to listen for in an AB test but for the majority of people they just don't work.

 

Since I appreciate improved sonics when casually listening to them over a period or weeks, I don't believe I have a tin-ear, so I tried to find out what was amiss in AB'ing and discovered that our brains are at odds with us comparing one sound against another.

 

From post 1325 in the thread "Why do objectivists get so upset?"

 

Five "human" things ensure why sighted or blind A/B testing fails to reveal statistical differences between nearly everything:

• Cognitive bias - your brain will fill in missing information thus making both samples sound the same on repeated listening.
  
• Listener Fatigue - switch back and forth too often and both music files will sound like crap.
  
• Accumulative effects are hidden - Accumulative effects on sound quality increase over time and remain hidden when switching back and forth between two music files, especially things such as strident/smooth, cold/warm sound, etc.
  
• Soundstage and instrument placement - it takes anywhere between 30 seconds to several minutes for my brain to map the soundstage and hear the instrument and vocal placement before I can judge anything. A/B'ing insures this never happens.
  
• Confirmation Bias - In addition sighted A/B testing has to fight confirmation bias, as some people think the major brand or more expensive item must sound better. This is not always true as sometimes the unknown brand or the least expensive item sounds the best.
  

[Rexp]

Could you give me an example of a great 16/44 recording of large ensemble acoustical music? I'll try to get it this week and give it a listen.

I'm currently on a long term overseas assingment and don't have my lp's with me but this is a recording I like: