The end of digital audio.?

[bluesman]

These appear to be different channels that complement each other far more than not.

That's true, but that association is far stronger for those who start with vinyl than for those who start with digital. I own at least one CD version of 90+% of my jazz & blues records and maybe 25% of my classical albums. I think I have 3 different CDs each of The Incredible Jazz Guitar of Wes Montgomery, Kind of Blue, The Blues and the Abstract Truth, and many more. As all my CDs are also ripped to FLAC, and I've assembled multiple digital systems to listen to those files, I'm living proof that buying records is the root of a steadily arborizing action tree whose two main fruits are my pleasure and audio industry revenue.

 

But I'm not so convinced that those who start with digital files and then discover vinyl will immediately become mini-me and enter the above pathway. I own about 1000 modern LPs because they were the only show in town (except for open reel tape, and I also had a Crown deck plus about 200 7" reels and 30 or so 10 1/2" reels). My personal record collection dates to 1958, and almost all are in excellent condition or better despite having been played many times. I have hundreds more 33s and 78s from my family's collections that go back to about 1920 and include a treasure trove of great stuff from the '30s to the '50s (like my father's Nat Cole collection).

 

I bought a Sony Pro Walkman in '82 so I could have the best available cassette playback with me. I started buying CD versions in the mid '80s so I could put all the albums in semi-retirement and keep them healthier longer. The Sony Discman then let me take music to many new places and freed me from radio. Then I started using digital files so I could stream my music to me anywhere I wanted any time I wanted it. But the progression was clear and logical, and I always had the original vinyl when I wanted that experience and sound.

 

I strongly doubt that anyone who started with CDs, mp3s etc will duplicate his or her digital collection with all available vinyl versions of those files if and when those records are pressed. A very few will convert to vinyl, but most will still consider their digital sources to be their main collection and default source.

[esldude]

snip.....

 

As for using a digital playback chain with vinyl, it makes no sense to me if the goal is the best possible SQ. Pumping the pristine analog signal from your cartridge into an ADC and thru a digital amplification chain that ends in a DAC is yet another digression from the ideal concept of a wire with gain. Yes, I have and love my Parasound Zphono USB, but it has MM and MC voltage amplification stages in a very fine analog preamp that drives my PrimaLuna tube power amp. I don't listen to vinyl through the USB port and my digital systems unless I'm streaming the sound to other rooms (which is a convenience that's far cheaper than an analog system in each room - but the sound from the primary system is still better).

 

snip.....

 

What is the goofy quote: it's what you know that ain't so that gets you in trouble.

It was an idea sold to us by the big mags at the time that digital was bad, that it was sub-standard and digitizing a source was heresy against quality sound. Without getting into why that seemed to be the case, it either never was or certainly has not been for quite a few years.

 

There is no analog circuitry that is straight wire with gain though it is a lofty goal. There isn't any digital path that is equivalent to straight wire with gain either. But digital, even rudimentary digital now is much, much closer. All you have to do is let go of preconceptions and listen.

 

Way back in the 1990's I came to own a Wadia DAC of excellent quality with a well done digital volume control. Made comparing sound of pre-amps to no pre-amp easy. Most colored the sound considerably. The closest to doing nothing were Spectral pre-amps. It was a bother to keep a TT, FM tuner, cassette and reel machines usable without the pre-amp. MSB, back before they apparently believed you should pay $20k plus to listen to music, had an affordable ADC with 9 analog inputs. On one of those hopeful leaps that I felt was a long shot I got hold of one. The Wadia was my primary source, and all the others secondary. This MSB ADC let me feed all my analog sources into it and then digitized onto the Wadia and get rid of the pre-amp altogether.

 

It was immediately apparent that other than maybe a Spectral no preamp I had ever used could match that. Wasn't close and wasn't hard to show to other people. And yes I convinced a few I know to digitize their oh so precious and delicate analog TT signals and go digital the rest of the way. They were very pleased.

 

The point being that fear of digitizing analog sources is unfounded. It has been pumped up as an issue with few people even willing to try it. That idea has stunted the potential market for quite a few very useful products that otherwise could have been made. Maybe it will die one day, but it doesn't help to keep perpetuating the myth. ADC-DAC conversion is capable of being done at an excellent level of quality that analog processes struggle mightily(and expensively) to match.

[bluesman]

The point being that fear of digitizing analog sources is unfounded.

I'm not afraid of it - I just don't see the point for listening to vinyl. When we have digital output from the transducer itself (i.e. the phono cartridge or whatever replaces it), digital amplification from stem to stern makes sense. But as long as we need analog voltage gain to drive the ADC process, we're doing the signal no favors. I love my Wadia 151 as much as I love my Parasound Zphono USB and my Emotiva Stealth DAC - but I don't play records through those because the sound is a bit more vibrant and alive through Curl's analog preamp and my Prima Luna power amp driving the same sets of speakers (Focal towers or LS3/5as). I also don't play records through the Zphono/Stealth and my powered monitors for the same reason.

 

So you're telling me there's no such thing as a straight wire with gain? Wow - next you'll try to convince me that my perpetual motion machine doesn't work. I do wonder how you managed to bring the signal from your tape heads (uV) and phono cartridges (mV) up to a level sufficient to drive the ADC with absolutely no "preamplification" at all. I'll bet that if you look into that box, you'll find a teeny bit of circuitry with voltage gain somewhere between the transducers and the ADC stage, unless of course you actually do have a straight wire with gain.

 

[esldude]

I'm not afraid of it - I just don't see the point for listening to vinyl. When we have digital output from the transducer itself (i.e. the phono cartridge or whatever replaces it), digital amplification from stem to stern makes sense. But as long as we need analog voltage gain to drive the ADC process, we're doing the signal no favors. I love my Wadia 151 as much as I love my Parasound Zphono USB and my Emotiva Stealth DAC - but I don't play records through those because the sound is a bit more vibrant and alive through Curl's analog preamp and my Prima Luna power amp driving the same sets of speakers (Focal towers or LS3/5as). I also don't play records through the Zphono/Stealth and my powered monitors for the same reason.

 

So you're telling me there's no such thing as a straight wire with gain? Wow - next you'll try to convince me that my perpetual motion machine doesn't work. I do wonder how you managed to bring the signal from your tape heads (uV) and phono cartridges (mV) up to a level sufficient to drive the ADC with absolutely no "preamplification" at all. I'll bet that if you look into that box, you'll find a teeny bit of circuitry with voltage gain somewhere between the transducers and the ADC stage, unless of course you actually do have a straight wire with gain.

 

 

The point in listening to vinyl is you can amp it up with the phono stage, then run it thru some active pre-amp and then listen to it. You also can amp it up with the phono stage, convert it to digital, then play it out the analog output of a DAC. One way sounds better than the other or they sound the same. When I have done this, the digital path was better. That is the point.

 

Straight wire with gain is possible, but the ideal is straight wire and gain that does absolutely nothing to alter or color the signal. We have straight wire with colored to taste gain. We have straight wire with unintentional color and gain. We might even have straight wire with audibly invisible gain. If we encapsulate into digital form the source signal, it can be sent far and wide with no further degradation. Analog systems don't generally work that way. The supposition fed to us over the years has been the initial digitizing is damaging to the signal more so than analog transmission. I haven't found that to be so.

 

The rest about tape head and phono cartridges being brought up to ADC level is of course a diversion of the matter. The typical analog pre-amp based system has a head amp for these and then further analog circuitry usually with additional gain and volume control. I am simply replacing the second analog circuit with the extra gain and volume control with an ADC-DAC conversion.

[mansr]

The point in listening to vinyl is you can amp it up with the phono stage, then run it thru some active pre-amp and then listen to it. You also can amp it up with the phono stage, convert it to digital, then play it out the analog output of a DAC. One way sounds better than the other or they sound the same. When I have done this, the digital path was better. That is the point.

 

Straight wire with gain is possible, but the ideal is straight wire and gain that does absolutely nothing to alter or color the signal. We have straight wire with colored to taste gain. We have straight wire with unintentional color and gain. We might even have straight wire with audibly invisible gain. If we encapsulate into digital form the source signal, it can be sent far and wide with no further degradation. Analog systems don't generally work that way. The supposition fed to us over the years has been the initial digitizing is damaging to the signal more so than analog transmission. I haven't found that to be so.

 

The rest about tape head and phono cartridges being brought up to ADC level is of course a diversion of the matter. The typical analog pre-amp based system has a head amp for these and then further analog circuitry usually with additional gain and volume control. I am simply replacing the second analog circuit with the extra gain and volume control with an ADC-DAC conversion.

Inserting a digital stage lets you do nice things like room correction. You can also do the necessary equalisation digitally which is especially nice if you have non-RIAA mastered records.

 

Of course, if I had a bunch of vinyl, I'd rent, borrow, or steal a high-end turntable and digitise them once and for all.

[esldude]

Inserting a digital stage lets you do nice things like room correction. You can also do the necessary equalisation digitally which is especially nice if you have non-RIAA mastered records.

 

Of course, if I had a bunch of vinyl, I'd rent, borrow, or steal a high-end turntable and digitise them once and for all.

 

Yes digital RIAA EQ works wonderfully. Me, I don't own a TT any longer. I too would just digitize the albums once and for all. However, even those who use an ADC-DAC step seem addicted to or comforted by the ritual of pulling out the big black disc and dropping the tone arm to listen. I understand it even though it isn't the choice I made.

[bluesman]

I am simply replacing the second analog circuit with the extra gain and volume control with an ADC-DAC conversion.

Right - and the remaining circuitry is still preamplification. You simply substituted one kind of gain stage for another, and you like the result. That's not been the case in any system I've had with both digital and analog outs (eg Rega, Parasound). Maybe you just need a better preamp.

 

Cheers!

[esldude]

Right - and the remaining circuitry is still preamplification. You simply substituted one kind of gain stage for another, and you like the result. That's not been the case in any system I've had with both digital and analog outs (eg Rega, Parasound). Maybe you just need a better preamp.

 

Cheers!

 

Yes, in one of my systems it actually is amplification as the DAC is done in the power output stage of the amp. Yes, I do prefer digital for those steps. For that matter analog vinyl is inferior itself, but if one wishes to listen to it one can avail oneself of the best available tech to do it.

 

Also I don't think your Rega Parasound combo are equivalent to what I am writing about, but depends on what you are doing with it.

[mansr]

Yes digital RIAA EQ works wonderfully. Me, I don't own a TT any longer. I too would just digitize the albums once and for all. However, even those who use an ADC-DAC step seem addicted to or comforted by the ritual of pulling out the big black disc and dropping the tone arm to listen. I understand it even though it isn't the choice I made.

I too understand the appeal of the ritual. If I had that desire, I'd be tempted to concoct something to detect the record and play the same music from a clean digital source instead.

[Sal1950]

I too understand the appeal of the ritual. .

I can see it but not really understand it. Kind of like churning your own butter, or cranking on a ice cream maker. It would be fun on rare occassion, but as a necessity for the result in every instance?

The day about 9 years back when I lifted the arm off my last LP and hit the stop button in Audacity put a big smile on my face.

Now I can sit in the listening chair with the android tablet in my hand and remotely bring up anything from my entire lives music collection in a instant. I could never imagine going back.

[bluesman]

Also I don't think your Rega Parasound combo are equivalent to what I am writing about, but depends on what you are doing with it.

Huh? Among the phono stages I've owned with onboard ADC are units from Parasound and from Rega. Each is a single device with phono stage(s) plus an ADC with both analog and USB outputs. I've played vinyl through them both into tube analog amplification and pure digital amplification (up to the output stage), driving the same speakers to the same SPLs in the same rooms and positions. How is this not exactly analogous to your example?

[esldude]

Huh? Among the phono stages I've owned with onboard ADC are units from Parasound and from Rega. Each is a single device with phono stage(s) plus an ADC with both analog and USB outputs. I've played vinyl through them both into tube analog amplification and pure digital amplification (up to the output stage), driving the same speakers to the same SPLs in the same rooms and positions. How is this not exactly analogous to your example?

 

That is different than how I thought you were using them. I was aware of the Zphono unit, but didn't realize they had the Zphono USB (missed it in your description first time thru). So your use would be very similar.

[Booster MPS]

I view the vinyl sales as a component of the niche market for those reaching for analog solutions in a digital market. There is no shortage of YouTube channels or curators of content that includes vinyl, hand crafted items (wallets, boots such as Redwing, knives, and analog watches). There is strong attraction to these simple solutions. Not a knock in any way, but CA's visit to Boston with the stop by the stationary store is another example. With music there is a desire to experience it "as it used to be."

 

Ultimately it's all welcome from my perspective. Any hardware, DIY (Rasberry Pi), or software component that draws people into environments where they are doing focused listening of music that they enjoy is a tide that lifts all of us in the community. That will create the same demand that drives HD TV as a must have experience. I would contend that we should demand the best of our musical experiences.

[CatManDo]

About turntable sales: when the vinyl comeback started about 10-12 years or so, it was difficult to buy a new entry level "hifi" turntable. There were the DJ turntables (Technics SL-1200 and cheaper clones) and expensive (>$500) audiophile brands. Most people who wanted an inexpensive high quality turntable bought a second hand model from the 1980's or earlier. These sales are not recorded in the statistics. The same goes for the records sold in second hand stores and on auction sites. Vinyl was part of an underground niche economy.

 

Only a few years ago, big hifi brands started to offer turntables again, many sub-$200 models are now on the market, and general electronics stores stock and display them. This is why the sales figures increased so spectacularly. And the same applies to records, new releases coming out and being available everywhere, vinyl sales being registered in the music charts.

 

The article is about the increase in sales. You need to look at the absolute figures to put things into perspective. Vinyl represents only a few % of the total music sales. And more importantly, free copies of digital music (legal or illegal) represent a huge part of the consumption, while there is no such possibility for vinyl.

 

Concerning the success of digital music playback, hardware sales figures don't say much because unlike with vinyl records you don't need to buy a portable music player or a dedicated audio streamer to listen to files. The iPod is dead. Every smartphone, any computer, any TV, Blu-ray player or gaming console can now play music files. So for every turntable sold there are a million devices being sold that can potentially play digital music.

[One and a half]

The iPod is dead. Every smartphone, any computer, any TV, Blu-ray player or gaming console can now play music files. So for every turntable sold there are a million devices being sold that can potentially play digital music.

 

Amen to the iPod being dead, from Statistica. Glory days of iPod sales were at Christmas time, but now, nothing to write home about. Non Apple portable players maintain their presence, to play quite a large (removable) library of music files including DSD, and combined with portable amps provide the enthusiast with a wide choice to connect their favourite headphones.

[Norton]

I can see it but not really understand it. Kind of like churning your own butter, or cranking on a ice cream maker. It would be fun on rare occassion, but as a necessity for the result in every instance?

The day about 9 years back when I lifted the arm off my last LP and hit the stop button in Audacity put a big smile on my face.

Now I can sit in the listening chair with the android tablet in my hand and remotely bring up anything from my entire lives music collection in a instant. I could never imagine going back.

 

Just shows that we all look for different things from our systems. Sure, digital generally wins on convenience, although I think your butter churning analogy wildly exaggerates the relative time and complexity involved with vinyl vs. digital (using my TT often seems straightforward compared to getting server/end point/dac to play together nicely and reliably). But vinyl is my medium of choice for serious listening when I'm simply looking for ultimate SQ, which is what I guess fuels the vinyl revival. With latest upgrades to my system, vinyl has pulled way, way ahead of digital in this regard, simply stunning what I'm now getting from LPs.

[Jud]

Primarily for the sake of time, effort, expense and convenience, I haven't embarked on ripping my LPs (somewhere between 500 and 1000). I'd have to purchase an ADC, but the biggest factor is just time, in big enough chunks to get an album or two or three digitized. Right now my time is way too broken up. And even after I retire I can think of more enjoyable ways to spend extended periods.

 

And for what purpose would I be performing this task? To avoid putting a record on my turntable and playing it (which I'm not attached to as a ritual, but don't especially mind)? Taking 30 seconds occasionally to do this is fine with me. I do admire the folks who've got everything digitized and metadata'd to a fare-thee-well (though I suspect them of obsessive tendencies ).

[The Computer Audiophile]

Primarily for the sake of time, effort, expense and convenience, I haven't embarked on ripping my LPs (somewhere between 500 and 1000). I'd have to purchase an ADC, but the biggest factor is just time, in big enough chunks to get an album or two or three digitized. Right now my time is way too broken up. And even after I retire I can think of more enjoyable ways to spend extended periods.

 

And for what purpose would I be performing this task? To avoid putting a record on my turntable and playing it (which I'm not attached to as a ritual, but don't especially mind)? Taking 30 seconds occasionally to do this is fine with me. I do admire the folks who've got everything digitized and metadata'd to a fare-thee-well (though I suspect them of obsessive tendencies ).

The only time I've ever wanted digitized vinyl is to have a better master of a good album. For example, the Beck "Morning Phase" release was dynamically compressed and the MP3 vinyl rip (officially released by Beck) sounded best. I'd love an official release of the vinyl rip if that's what sounds best. I imagine if I had a turntable and ADC I'd rip this album to get the extra dynamic range.

 

OK, one other time. Pearl Jam just recorded a small performance at Jack White's studio. It was done direct-to-acetate and will be released on vinyl. I should receive my copy any day now.

 

https://thirdmanrecords.com/news/introducing-vault-package-29/

[mansr]

Primarily for the sake of time, effort, expense and convenience, I haven't embarked on ripping my LPs (somewhere between 500 and 1000). I'd have to purchase an ADC, but the biggest factor is just time, in big enough chunks to get an album or two or three digitized. Right now my time is way too broken up. And even after I retire I can think of more enjoyable ways to spend extended periods.

 

And for what purpose would I be performing this task? To avoid putting a record on my turntable and playing it (which I'm not attached to as a ritual, but don't especially mind)? Taking 30 seconds occasionally to do this is fine with me. I do admire the folks who've got everything digitized and metadata'd to a fare-thee-well (though I suspect them of obsessive tendencies ).

 

Having them digitised would avoid playback wear.

 

One way to get around the time issue would be to have everything set up for capture, and simply digitise whatever you play that hasn't been already. It would be a slow process, and some albums might not ever get done if you never listen to them, but then that's not much of a problem. Getting everything properly tagged of course still takes extra time.

[mansr]

The only time I've ever wanted digitized vinyl is to have a better master of a good album. For example, the Beck "Morning Phase" release was dynamically compressed and the MP3 vinyl rip (officially released by Beck) sounded best. I'd love an official release of the vinyl rip if that's what sounds best. I imagine if I had a turntable and ADC I'd rip this album to get the extra dynamic range.

 

In those cases, I'd much rather have a copy of the digital master file used to produce the LP or, if it was an all-analogue production, a proper tape transfer.

[The Computer Audiophile]

In those cases, I'd much rather have a copy of the digital master file used to produce the LP or, if it was an all-analogue production, a proper tape transfer.

I'd rather have the band in my backyard but neither my preference nor yours are possible :~)

[mansr]

I'd rather have the band in my backyard but neither my preference nor yours are possible :~)

 

A release of the master file is almost as likely as an official vinyl rip.

[The Computer Audiophile]

A release of the master file is almost as likely as an official vinyl rip.

Beck released an official vinyl rip that was downloadable with a code enclosed in the vinyl jacket. The only issue is that it's MP3.

[mansr]

Beck released an official vinyl rip that was downloadable with a code enclosed in the vinyl jacket. The only issue is that it's MP3.

 

Maybe it would be possible to compare the versions to determine the compression parameters used on the CD and undo most of the damage.

[17629v2]

Having them digitised would avoid playback wear.

 

One way to get around the time issue would be to have everything set up for capture, and simply digitise whatever you play that hasn't been already. It would be a slow process, and some albums might not ever get done if you never listen to them, but then that's not much of a problem. Getting everything properly tagged of course still takes extra time.

 

As long as your TT is set up properly, its pretty hard to wear out a record. You'd really have to put some effort into it.