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Take Me To Treble Town…


Sam Spade
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Hi gang,

 

Hope you are all having a great summer. As you may know I have a micro system Denon DM39s + DragonFly 1.2 + JitterBug + Audirvana Plus.

 

At any rate, I have enjoyed the Denon speakers but want to do a bit of an upgrade.I am considering the Pioneer BS22 and wanted to know if this might be a viable alternative.

 

 

The Denon DM39s (amp) specs are:

Power Output (6 ohm, 1kHz) 30 W

Number of channels 2Freq. Response (Analog In) 20 Hz X 20 kHz

Denon speaker specs are:

 

Type 2-way, bass reflex

Drivers 4 ¾” bass-mid 1” dome high

Impedance (ohms) 6

Frequency range 45 Hz X 40 kHz

The Pioneer BS22s:

 

Description: Two-way bass-reflex bookshelf speaker (not magnetically shielded). Drive-units: 1" soft-dome tweeter, 4" structured-surface cone woofer. Frequency range: 55Hz–20kHz. Nominal impedance: 6 ohms. Sensitivity: 85dB/2.83V/m. Maximum input power: 80W. Crossover frequency: 3kHz.

 

Do you guys think it would be worth it to upgrade to the BS22s ? Do they pair well with any amp or are they slightly fussy? Thank you for your insights.

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I think you would get better results upgrading to a better integrated amp/receiver first, and use it with the Denon speakers. If your current amp has trouble driving the new speakers it won't sound right. I have the Pioneer speakers on one of my computers, and while they're not difficult to drive, they may be a bit too much for the Denon amp. And it will still be an upgrade in sound quality. Speakers always respond well to more clean power.

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I think the Pioneer (or comparable ELAC) models will sound really good for you, as they have what amounts to a "high end" sound at a bargain basement price. They do have their issues, but they are mostly sins of omission, rather than commission.

 

If you are willing to spend a little more, there are super efficient speakers that will work very well with your Amp. I like the sound of these little puppies myself:

DECWARE Desktop Speakers model TRAPEZIUM

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Hi gang,

 

Hope you are all having a great summer. As you may know I have a micro system Denon DM39s + DragonFly 1.2 + JitterBug + Audirvana Plus.

 

At any rate, I have enjoyed the Denon speakers but want to do a bit of an upgrade.I am considering the Pioneer BS22 and wanted to know if this might be a viable alternative.

 

 

The Denon DM39s (amp) specs are:

Power Output (6 ohm, 1kHz) 30 W

Number of channels 2Freq. Response (Analog In) 20 Hz X 20 kHz

Denon speaker specs are:

 

Type 2-way, bass reflex

Drivers 4 ¾” bass-mid 1” dome high

Impedance (ohms) 6

Frequency range 45 Hz X 40 kHz

The Pioneer BS22s:

 

Description: Two-way bass-reflex bookshelf speaker (not magnetically shielded). Drive-units: 1" soft-dome tweeter, 4" structured-surface cone woofer. Frequency range: 55Hz–20kHz. Nominal impedance: 6 ohms. Sensitivity: 85dB/2.83V/m. Maximum input power: 80W. Crossover frequency: 3kHz.

 

Do you guys think it would be worth it to upgrade to the BS22s ? Do they pair well with any amp or are they slightly fussy? Thank you for your insights.

 

That little amp would be fine with speakers you mention and a worthwhile upgrade without much cash outlay. The Denon speakers just aren't very good and even a pair of Definitive Technology SM45 that retail for $400 a pair would be a good improvement over those little Denons.

David

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That little amp would be fine with speakers you mention and a worthwhile upgrade without much cash outlay. The Denon speakers just aren't very good and even a pair of Definitive Technology SM45 that retail for $400 a pair would be a good improvement over those little Denons.

 

I don't know if you have ever played with any of those small, lifestyle type systems, but I have and to say that they are under powered would be something of an understatement. Best case scenario is that it put out 5 or so reasonably clean watts. They have to make speakers special, just for those systems, because the amps they use are really not good enough to drive an off the shelf solution. DefTech want a minimum of 20 watts for the SM45's.

 

"The Denon DM39s (amp) specs are:

Power Output (6 ohm, 1kHz) 30 W

Number of channels 2Freq. Response (Analog In) 20 Hz X 20 kHz"

 

Just to be clear, yes, I know the Denon is rated for 30 watts and the speaker only requires 20, but I still say its a bad match.

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Ever played whisper chain where someone whispers something in someones ear and by the 4th person, no matter how sharp they are, the message is altered? Well that's also a stereo system in action and your loud speakers are more "accent" than "substance" if the chain up front isn't highly accurate. Your source solution seems a lot better than your electronics, you might check into the NAD integrated amps if you are on a budget.

Regards,

Dave

 

Audio system

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I don't know if you have ever played with any of those small, lifestyle type systems, but I have and to say that they are under powered would be something of an understatement. Best case scenario is that it put out 5 or so reasonably clean watts. They have to make speakers special, just for those systems, because the amps they use are really not good enough to drive an off the shelf solution. DefTech want a minimum of 20 watts for the SM45's.

 

"The Denon DM39s (amp) specs are:

Power Output (6 ohm, 1kHz) 30 W

Number of channels 2Freq. Response (Analog In) 20 Hz X 20 kHz"

 

Just to be clear, yes, I know the Denon is rated for 30 watts and the speaker only requires 20, but I still say its a bad match.

 

I disagree. MAYBE if we were talking about Kef R100's or Harbeth P3ES's Id be more inclined to do amp first but the Denon speakers just aren't any good and are the first thing I'd see go. The speakers he's considering are not that expensive and IF he gets the itch later he can start thinking about other amos. And yes, have lots of experience with all the products discussed. Sold (or sell) most of them. Have had many little systems with the mini Denons hooked up in the shop and basically the speakers that come with them are the very first thing to get replaced.

David

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I disagree. MAYBE if we were talking about Kef R100's or Harbeth P3ES's Id be more inclined to do amp first but the Denon speakers just aren't any good and are the first thing I'd see go. The speakers he's considering are not that expensive and IF he gets the itch later he can start thinking about other amos. And yes, have lots of experience with all the products discussed. Sold (or sell) most of them. Have had many little systems with the mini Denons hooked up in the shop and basically the speakers that come with them are the very first thing to get replaced.

 

I respect your opinion, but I'm standing by my last post. I believe if the OP tried the new speakers and a new amp in his system, he would most likely pick the amp to upgrade. Nothing sounds worse than an amp straining to drive a pair of speakers. And it will strain, its just a matter of how much.

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I respect your opinion, but I'm standing by my last post. I believe if the OP tried the new speakers and a new amp in his system, he would most likely pick the amp to upgrade. Nothing sounds worse than an amp straining to drive a pair of speakers. And it will strain, its just a matter of how much.

 

I would tend to agree with David - good speakers driven by a poor amp will sound better than poor speakers driven by a good amp. Put the money into speakers.

 

Of course good speakers driven by a good amp will sound even better, but that is not the point at all.

 

-Paul

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Ever played whisper chain where someone whispers something in someones ear and by the 4th person, no matter how sharp they are, the message is altered? Well that's also a stereo system in action and your loud speakers are more "accent" than "substance" if the chain up front isn't highly accurate. Your source solution seems a lot better than your electronics, you might check into the NAD integrated amps if you are on a budget.

 

Hi,

 

Thank you for your replies. Yes, I would like to get a better amp and all that, however, space is at a premium in my little office. Also, I am saving my "shekels" for a new amp to go with my home system.

Originally, I was going to get a Merantz PM6005, but the measuring tape had a few things to say. I looked around at the smaller NAIM units, and while they sounded nice, they were just too expensive.

A close friend gave me a Totem sub, when he got a new one and that has really added something to the sound. Sadly, the sub has got me craving the higher notes. That is why I was looking at the BS22s.

The little Denon sounds better than you might think, and really surprised some of my musician friends. It has a surprisingly wide sound stage, good detail, and is very musical. But to be sure it is of the cheap and cheerful variety.

I can get the volume to about 75 percent before I get any unpleasantness. When What HiFi reviewed the unit, they tried it out with Q acoustics 2020i and found it worked well.

I agree about my source being better than the output. My audiophile friend has a Rouge Sphinx with a NAIM CD player (don’t know the model number), which sits near the top of the range – about $ 4,000. He got it for some stupid low price as it was the last one. It feeds to a pair of B&W 685 S2 with Nordost wires (silver), interconnects and power cable.

At any rate, I challenged him to a shoot out – My MBP + Dragonfly 1.2 + Jitterbug + Audioquest Golden Gate RCA interconnect + Audirvana Plus vs. his NAIM CD player using his rig.

While we both thought the NAIM won, it was not by a huge margin. The sound stage was slightly bigger, the highs were sweeter, and there was a little more detail. Given the price difference we both sat around scratching our heads – a lot. It got even scarier when I played some hi-res material as opposed to the red book stuff for our shoot out.

One thing that worries me about the BS22s is that the sensitivity is only 85dB. I can not find any info on the sensitivity of the Denon speakers.

Sam Spade

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I would tend to agree with David - good speakers driven by a poor amp will sound better than poor speakers driven by a good amp. Put the money into speakers.

 

Of course good speakers driven by a good amp will sound even better, but that is not the point at all.

 

-Paul

thank you. what do you make of the 85dB rating of the BS22s with such a little amp?

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Well, I'm not going to be much help but I will say I love my Pioneer's and they sound pretty terrific with this very inexpensive Dayton Audio amp:

 

Dayton Audio DTA-120 Class T Digital Mini Amplifier 60 WPC - Amplifiers - Home Audio / Video

 

Another loudspeaker to check out is the Elac B5 (also designed by Andrew Jones).

 

Thanks. I looked at the B5s, but I want to keep things modest in terms of cash outlay. But I am glad you are enjoying your BS22s.

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thank you. what do you make of the 85dB rating of the BS22s with such a little amp?

 

Since you are going to be listening near field, I don't think it will be a problem at all. In fact, I think it may be a pretty good match myself. It is certainly a low risk option to try! (Hello Best Buy!:))

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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I respect your opinion, but I'm standing by my last post. I believe if the OP tried the new speakers and a new amp in his system, he would most likely pick the amp to upgrade. Nothing sounds worse than an amp straining to drive a pair of speakers. And it will strain, its just a matter of how much.

 

Thought I'd try out both of our theory's for myself. It's not close. Replace the (really bad) speakers that come in a Denon all in one system (in this case its the terrific little DRA-N5) with some $300-$650 bookshelf speakers (in this case a pair of Yamaha NX-E400, Definitive Technology SM45's, Kef Q300's) and voila, instantly the system is actually one that I can listen to. Of course add a better (needs to be a good bit better) amp and things get even better. But that's not the point.

 

Go the other way (adding a better amp onto the thrown in Denon speakers, ie, Marantz, Linn, Parasound,) and things improve some from the little DRA-N5 but they still aren't nearly as good as the better speakers on the little Denon.

 

That's obviously only my viewpoint.

David

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