Bruckner's 8th in Hi Res

[Musicophile]

Karajan has many admirers and many of those who are quite indifferent. I belong to latter, for me his Bruckner is too glossy or schmaltzy if you want.

While the cleaner Wand remains my favorite, I like the schmalz of Karajan for Bruckner. I occasionally dive into Celi, but only when I have a lot of patients.

 

In any case, agree on Jochum/Dresden (his Berlin cycle is quite good as well), and playing it tonight:http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f15-music-general/album-evening-7578/index434.html#post572743

[Carzee45]

I used to think this about Karajan but I come back to his Wagner, Sibelius, Brahms and Beethoven again and again. I think he's has an unfair press since his death and believe he has left many great recordings behind.

[Jay-dub]

 

As for the 8th, are you referring to the Oehms Classics recording with the Saarbrucken Radio Symphony Orchestra? When was this recorded?

 

October 1993. The CD appears to be mastered with noise-shaping, so it's almost in high-resolution…

[AnotherSpin]

While the cleaner Wand remains my favorite, I like the schmalz of Karajan for Bruckner.

I didn't intent to hurt anybody's feelings...) The beauty of situation is that almost limitless variety of performances available for each significant piece of music to choose from. I do like some items from Karajan's legacy, and generally prefer his early recordings for EMI and Decca over later DG. His Sibelius is probably the best I know, and some recordings of Richard Strauss were not surpassed by anyone.

[Musicophile]

I didn't intent to hurt anybody's feelings...) The beauty of situation is that almost limitless variety of performances available for each significant piece of music to choose from. I do like some items from Karajan's legacy, and generally prefer his early recordings for EMI and Decca over later DG. His Sibelius is probably the best I know, and some recordings of Richard Strauss were not surpassed by anyone.

No worries, no harm done. We're talking about taste here, and de gustibus non est disputandum.

[Carzee45]

I didn't intent to hurt anybody's feelings...) The beauty of situation is that almost limitless variety of performances available for each significant piece of music to choose from. I do like some items from Karajan's legacy, and generally prefer his early recordings for EMI and Decca over later DG. His Sibelius is probably the best I know, and some recordings of Richard Strauss were not surpassed by anyone.

 

His recordings were often so well produced with an emphasis on 'beauty of sound' that the performances were often lost under this. He does occasionally smooch with the music though. I do love his recordings of Tosca(Price/Di Stefano) and Otelllo(Tebaldi/Del Monaco). There is great subtlety in the playing in those recordings.

[Musicophile]

His recordings were often so well produced with an emphasis on 'beauty of sound' that the performances were often lost under this. He does occasionally smooch with the music though. I do love his recordings of Tosca(Price/Di Stefano) and Otelllo(Tebaldi/Del Monaco). There is great subtlety in the playing in those recordings.

 

With Karajan, on average my rule is the earlier the better. Most of the late DG stuff is pretty bad.

 

However, his "beauty of sound" approach works quite well for Bruckner in my ears.

[Axiom05]

With Karajan, on average my rule is the earlier the better. Most of the late DG stuff is pretty bad.

 

However, his "beauty of sound" approach works quite well for Bruckner in my ears.

 

I remember when I was about 20, broke and just getting into classical music in a big way. I would go to the Harmony Hut at our mall and yearn for the DG LP's of Karajan conducting Bruckner. When I could finally buy one it usually had so much surface noise that I would return it and get a Phillips recording by Haitink. While the sound was not as flashy as DG, the surface noise was much better. This is a scenario that played out over and over to the point that I just refused to buy Karajan on DG. The Karajan/Vienna live recording of Bruckner's 8th on CD turned out to be the first Bruckner/Karajan that I owned. Just as these early experiences had turned me off of Karajan, they caused me to develop a taste for Haitink.

[Musicophile]

I remember when I was about 20, broke and just getting into classical music in a big way. I would go to the Harmony Hut at our mall and yearn for the DG LP's of Karajan conducting Bruckner. When I could finally buy one it usually had so much surface noise that I would return it and get a Phillips recording by Haitink. While the sound was not as flashy as DG, the surface noise was much better. This is a scenario that played out over and over to the point that I just refused to buy Karajan on DG. The Karajan/Vienna live recording of Bruckner's 8th on CD turned out to be the first Bruckner/Karajan that I owned. Just as these early experiences had turned me off of Karajan, they caused me to develop a taste for Haitink.

 

I've seen Haitink in concert at least five or six times, mostly Bruckner and Mahler.

 

He truly is the opposite to the attention seeking dandy-style conductor that was Karajan. You will be hard pressed to find a more modest guy than him.

 

His style is similar, no nonsense, clean. I'm not a universal fan of his approach, but he always has something to say.

[AnotherSpin]

Just as these early experiences had turned me off of Karajan, they caused me to develop a taste for Haitink.

Karajan represents the case a) "artist who performs music"; Haitink is a good example of case b) "music performed by artist". Many of well known performers belong to the first group, with Svyatoslav Richter popping up first in my mind. I am not dismissing this group, I only believe such distinction is useful while choosing what to listen next. Great ego-maniacs have their own charm which would be interesting from time to time.

[Carzee45]

Much as I admire Haitink, I think Karajan was the greater conductor. IMO Haitink can be so scrupulous and measured that it sometimes borders on the pedestrian. I have many of his RCO Bruckner on vinyl and often bypass them in favour of Jochum or Abbado. His Mahler can also flag a little, though the playing under his guidance is almost always impressive. I think Haitink was more lively in Shostakovich. I agree the sound approach to Bruckner does work very well for Karajan. I think his Sibelius is brilliant, especially in the 5th and 7th. There's a real darkness to the sound and his handling of silence and hushed pianissimos is breathtaking.There's a real feel for Sibelius's state of mind in these sometimes harrowing music.

[Jay-dub]

Yesterday I listened to the Skrowaczewski/Saarbrücken recording of this symphony. The performance was enjoyable, and the sound is near-demonstration quality.

 

More detail on the mastering: the first disc of the symphony (first three movements) clearly show signs of a fairly aggressive noise-shaper (hiss apparent on a spectrogram from 16.5 kHz upward). The finale does not show noise shaping. Makes me wonder if the use of the noise-shaper was accidental. I listened the way I usually do for CD's with noise-shaping, which is to say to the output of the following (18.2-kHz lowpass, saved to 24 bits):

 

sox -D infile.aiff -b 24 outfile.aiff sinc -a 60 -t 4200 -18200

 

HQPlayer users should get similar results with its "polysinc-mqa" filter. An 18.2-kHz bandwidth is the most I would recommend for this recording; the high-frequency hiss was still clearly audible, and those who find it bothersome might prefer a 17-kHz lowpass.

 

This was the first time I've gotten through Bruckner's 8th in ten, possibly twenty years. I might listen again in the next month or so. Trying to decide: Skrowaczewski one more time, or Jochum/DGG, or the late Karajan.

[Musicophile]

 

This was the first time I've gotten through Bruckner's 8th in ten, possibly twenty years. I might listen again in the next month or so. Trying to decide: Skrowaczewski one more time, or Jochum/DGG, or the late Karajan.

I really encourage you to throw Wand, especially his Berlin cycle, into this experiment. It's been recorded originally on SACD, and sounds quite nice.

 

Unfortunately, there are no DSD downloads available at this stage, but Esoteric has quite recently re-released the SACDs in Japan, unfortunately at rather ludicrous prices (plus you need a SACD rip solution or a SACD player to enjoy them).

 

https://www.amazon.com/Vol-8-Bruckner-Symphony-Anton-Bruckner/dp/B000J10DSO

 

In the meantime, you'll find the redbook versions of these recordings on Qobuz:

 

Bruckner: Sinfonien | Anton Bruckner par Günter WandÂ*– Télécharger et écouter l'album

 

and Tidal:

 

https://listen.tidal.com/album/12059315

[tailspn]

Unfortunately, there are no DSD downloads available at this stage,.....

 

Actually, there are two:

 

the Jaap Van Zweden

 

https://challengerecords.nativedsd.com/albums/symphony-no-8

 

 

and the Janowski

 

https://pentatone.nativedsd.com/albums/ptc5186371bruckner-symphony-no-8-in-c-minor

 

 

Both were recorded and released in DSD64 by Challenge Classics and Pentatone respectively.

[Musicophile]

Actually, there are two:

 

the Jaap Van Zweden

 

https://challengerecords.nativedsd.com/albums/symphony-no-8

 

 

and the Janowski

 

https://pentatone.nativedsd.com/albums/ptc5186371bruckner-symphony-no-8-in-c-minor

 

 

Both were recorded and released in DSD64 by Challenge Classics and Pentatone respectively.

 

I wasn't clear, I meant there are no DSD downloads of the Wand SACDs (SA-CD.net - Bruckner: Symphonies Nos. 4, 5, 7, 8 & 9 - Wand) to my knowledge. I assume these must be native DSD recordings.

 

Now if NativeDSD could get their hands on the masters from whoever owns RCA these days, I'd be their first customer (in spite of not even having a DSD compatible DAC).

[Axiom05]

I think Sony owns RCA.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

[Musicophile]

I think Sony owns RCA.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

 

Prestoclassical says it's Bertelsmann:

 

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/l/RCA

[Axiom05]

Prestoclassical says it's Bertelsmann:

 

Presto Classical - RCA label - Buy music CDs & DVDs online

 

Bertelsmann's music assets, along with RCA, was sold to Sony in 2008. Part of the wonderful consolidation of the music industry.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertelsmann_Music_Group

[tailspn]

The booklet is in Japanese except for the contents and credits page. The recording was made in concert on January 19 through 21, 2001 by Teldec, and originally released by Teldec as a CD on November 1, 2001. It was later later remixed and remastered for both stereo and multichannel release on SACD under the RCA label by BMG.

 

It would not be available on nativedsd.com, for it was not DSD originally recorded.

[Booster MPS]

Musicophile, this one?

 

Presto Classical - Bruckner: Symphonies Nos. 4, 5, 7, 8 & 9 - RCA: 88691922952

 

(you know I am always the fly on the wall picking up the goodies you guys leave behind......)

[Axiom05]

Musicophile, this one?

 

Presto Classical - Bruckner: Symphonies Nos. 4, 5, 7, 8 & 9 - RCA: 88691922952

 

(you know I am always the fly on the wall picking up the goodies you guys leave behind......)

 

Yes, those are the ones.

[Axiom05]

The booklet is in Japanese except for the contents and credits page. The recording was made in concert on January 19 through 21, 2001 by Teldec, and originally released by Teldec as a CD on November 1, 2001. It was later later remixed and remastered for both stereo and multichannel release on SACD under the RCA label by BMG.

 

It would not be available on nativedsd.com, for it was not DSD originally recorded.

 

Yes, that is what my CD booklet says. My CD was released on the RCA label.

[Musicophile]

Bertelsmann's music assets, along with RCA, was sold to Sony in 2008. Part of the wonderful consolidation of the music industry.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertelsmann_Music_Group

Thanks. I lost track a long time ago

[Musicophile]

The booklet is in Japanese except for the contents and credits page. The recording was made in concert on January 19 through 21, 2001 by Teldec, and originally released by Teldec as a CD on November 1, 2001. It was later later remixed and remastered for both stereo and multichannel release on SACD under the RCA label by BMG.

 

It would not be available on nativedsd.com, for it was not DSD originally recorded.

Thanks, good to know I already have the master version from my CD rip.

[Jay-dub]

I really encourage you to throw Wand, especially his Berlin cycle, into this experiment. It's been recorded originally on SACD, and sounds quite nice.

I've ordered a secondhand CD of Wand's Berlin Eighth. $2 (US) plus shipping. It felt a little silly to buy another Bruckner 8, since I already have three complete cycles and I really don't need four or five recordings of a piece I listen to so rarely, but at this price it doesn't matter – it's a fraction of the opportunity cost for a single listen.

 

The decision to buy RBCD actually came before the further discussion revealed that this recording was probably made at standard resolution, with an SACD only for surround sound. Normally I try to buy a recording in the best possible sound quality, but this case triggered an exception: out of principle, I do not pay a premium for better-than-CD formats of live recordings.