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HOLO Audio Spring DAC - R2R DSD512


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19 minutes ago, routlaw said:

Can someone provide me with the link to download and install those USB firmware updates to the Holo Spring DAC? I looked on the Kitsune website and saw no mention of this. Thanks so much in advance.

It is there; just scroll down a bit in the text and you will find them and the instructions.

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6 minutes ago, routlaw said:

Thanks I found it this time, oddly enough. So it appears you need Windows to install the FW update, but obviously not the USB driver if on a Mac. Presumably once the FW is installed the benefits would still exist if using the L1 Spring working with a Mac?

Check with Tim at Kitsune. I don't think the USB firmware update will work with the Spring 1 unless the USB module has been changed to the new one. Tim will know. And yes a windows computer is needed to do the update.

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9 minutes ago, routlaw said:

Thanks I found it this time, oddly enough. So it appears you need Windows to install the FW update, but obviously not the USB driver if on a Mac. Presumably once the FW is installed the benefits would still exist if using the L1 Spring working with a Mac?

The firmware is for the actual xu208 chip. So yes, the benefits are for a Mac and Linux. It’s just the firmware tool is avail for windows. 

Tim Connor

KitsuneHifi.com / HoloAudio USA

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The firmwares are ONLY for xu208!!!

if you have the original U8 module do not use this firmware!

its mentioned in instructions 

you can choose to upgrade to xu208 module if you want. We sell the upgrade modules on our site. And they now have 21.16firmware (current) pre loaded 

Tim Connor

KitsuneHifi.com / HoloAudio USA

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  • 1 month later...

@Bimmer100, I am a little confused?  On the May DAC, I see that big film capacitor at the output.  Normally I would assume that this is a coupling capacitor to block DC, but as this is a balanced output DAC, if it was coupling, there would be 2 of these per channel?  Unless the DAC is really single ended output, and the balanced output is created later (via an opamp IC?).

Or perhaps, only the single ended output needs DC blocking?  Or are those film caps performing some other task?

 

Oh, and very quickly: it looks like the KTE version includes a box over the what is likely the R2R (PCM) converter.  I am guessing the DSD converter is on the board beneath?  Is there also a box over that?  I am more interested din DSD than PCM...  And I know that temperature variations can cause distortions in these types of circuits, ir seems like a box (or shield if one prefers) could lead to better temperature stability and less distortion.

Can the PCM converter boards be removed if one only wants to have DSD conversion available?

 

Very interested in the May DAC for its single bit, straight DSD conversion for use with HQPlayer conversion to DSD 256.

SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers.  ISOAcoustics Oreas footers.                                                       

                                                                                           SONORE computer audio

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12 hours ago, barrows said:

Oh, and very quickly: it looks like the KTE version includes a box over the what is likely the R2R (PCM) converter.  I am guessing the DSD converter is on the board beneath?  Is there also a box over that?  I am more interested din DSD than PCM...  And I know that temperature variations can cause distortions in these types of circuits, ir seems like a box (or shield if one prefers) could lead to better temperature stability and less distortion.

Can the PCM converter boards be removed if one only wants to have DSD conversion available?

 

Very interested in the May DAC for its single bit, straight DSD conversion for use with HQPlayer conversion to DSD 256.


no. The boards have pcm and dsd resistor networks on them and cannot be removed if you choose to only want Dsd. There is no dsd only model of the May. And no plans for one. It does pcm and dsd incredibly well. And they block emi/rf primarily and the bottom of the chassis does just fine for the bottom side. 
 

thermal stability is achieved approximately 48-72hours. Primarily 24 hours it’s pretty good.

 

not sure what you mean about your last quote. The spring and spring2 dac also does dsd natively. May does too. But is dual mono.

 

the May’s strong point is it’s PLL Circuit. If you have read atomic bobs measurements over at super best audio friends you will see just how good the Kte May really is! For the first time ever they had to change the graphs to show the measurements properly. Normally 140db range was fine... but for KTE May they needed graphs to go to 160dB to capture/show it all. It’s the best dac ever measured according to them. And even with a bad source with high jitter it will completely remove jitter and always have a perfect sound/signal. Effective resolution output is about 23bit. 23.18bit according to best case. But averaging at 23bit is pretty darn good :) 
 

 

Tim Connor

KitsuneHifi.com / HoloAudio USA

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Thanks for the details Tim.  I am well aware of how the Holo DACs process DSD, and indeed I would expect temperature stability to be very good considering the panel thickness of the chassis  Although anyone claiming actual 23 bits of resolution at the outputs is blowing some smoke, you might want to tone that back a little!  The measurements I have seen show nothing like that.  Maybe you mean 23 bits in the digital section?  Measurements at ASR of the analog output certainly show nothing like that.

I have seen measurements of the PLL at ASR, nice work there!  But i use only USB input, so there should not, really, be any improvements from the PLL there, unless the USB receiver clocking is flawed somehow? 

I still do not understand why you guys have not included volume control, as I am not ever interested in using a preamp again (Have extensively tested with and without) and I suspect that the output stage of the May is plenty stout enough to drive any amplifier directly with no compromise.  I am nervous about controlling in HQPlayer alone, as software glitches could cause an issue (it only takes one glitch to potentially damage a loudspeaker).

 

 

SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers.  ISOAcoustics Oreas footers.                                                       

                                                                                           SONORE computer audio

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6 hours ago, Bimmer100 said:

And even with a bad source with high jitter it will completely remove jitter and always have a perfect sound/signal. Effective resolution output is about 23bit. 23.18bit according to best case. But averaging at 23bit is pretty darn good :) 


Wow! That’s unheard of. Does the FPGA update the correction values/DEM based on temp, or do you calibrate once it’s reached steady state temp? Can you recalibrate/relinearize?

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23 minutes ago, jabbr said:


Wow! That’s unheard of. Does the FPGA update the correction values/DEM based on temp, or do you calibrate once it’s reached steady state temp? Can you recalibrate/relinearize?

To give you an idea... when the dac was being measured by the third party company. They did measurements from it being cold state, also moderate and fully warmed up. The dac did exceptionally well in all situations, dynamic range was from 139.8-141.3dB yet they chose to publish the average @ 140.4.

 

the dac was with them for quite some time but they mentioned 168hours of warm up. So it is capable to have very accurate resistor values at all temps, but as you would assume. A little better when thermally stable. In all situations it’s still was 23bit effective output resolution 

 

here is a link to the measurements. 
https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/kte-may-technical-measurements.8933/

Tim Connor

KitsuneHifi.com / HoloAudio USA

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Hmmm, Not sure how SBAF got a DNR 10 dB better than ASR, ASR uses the more precise AP analyzer.

 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-holo-audio-may-probably-the-best-discrete-r2r-dac.10161/

 

Although distortion results and PLL performance looks similar.  This is a bit of nit picking though, as the measurements are all very good.  Although i would still suggest that saying it has 23 bit resolution (at the analog outputs) is questionable at best.  I wonder if those power supply components visible in the SE measurements (60 Hz and 120 Hz) would entirely disappear if the units were not stacked, or if the distance between them in the stack was increased.  As expected we see them drop well away with the balanced outputs anyway.  Anyway, suffice it to say that there appear to be no problems here revealed by the measures, and I would not fault anything here based on that.  Indeed, for an R2R PCM DAC these measurements are very impressive.

 

Of course all this testing is with PCM and, I am much more interested in DSD performance, with DSD 256 input (DAC NOS mode) over USB.  Not that I would believe DSD to be worse, as i recall Miska's measurements of the Spring show improved performance for DSD 256 vs any PCM rates, so for May I would expect at least equal performance.

 

Hey Tim, any reason you and Jeff choose not to implement an analog volume control in the DAC?  Do you prefer to control volume in software, or the use of a preamp?  I understand what is required for a good volume control, and that it is not trivial.  

SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers.  ISOAcoustics Oreas footers.                                                       

                                                                                           SONORE computer audio

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1 hour ago, Bimmer100 said:

and you may say... why not digita volume? Because even with digital volume control it changes too many variables for what the dac module must achieve as well.

 

There is no need to implement digital volume control into a DAC, because it can be done by the player before the DAC, just like any other DSP functionality. I personally prefer to just have bit-perfect DAC, which are not so easy to find these days in first place!

 

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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2 hours ago, barrows said:

Of course all this testing is with PCM and, I am much more interested in DSD performance, with DSD 256 input (DAC NOS mode) over USB.  Not that I would believe DSD to be worse, as i recall Miska's measurements of the Spring show improved performance for DSD 256 vs any PCM rates, so for May I would expect at least equal performance.

 

 

The device accepts DSD1024 (and possibly DSD2048) no?

 

When I build my workstation capable of upsampling to those rates, I will need to check this out somehow ;) 

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8 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

There is no need to implement digital volume control into a DAC, because it can be done by the player before the DAC, just like any other DSP functionality. I personally prefer to just have bit-perfect DAC, which are not so easy to find these days in first place!

 

True but not everyone has a player. Some use the dac with a TV, CD player, other digital sources etc. like I do. But currently am using an Azure as my preamp in my loud speaker system and an original KTE Spring1 w/AHB2 as my amp.


And also using Azure for my headphone system at my desk w/KTE May. And imo is transparent and does the dac justice. 

 

In some cases it would be “enough” if using a player as your digital volume control...

 

but I also use my desktop PC to play computers games like Witcher3 or  Red Dead redemption etc. cyberpunk 2077 soon? :) anyhow. Using a May dac for this might be overkill. But having a good preamp is a must for me. And I have a handful of great options I could recommend to those who are in the market. I can’t rely on digital volume control to be 100% full proof. Maybe it’s great for hqplayer but some other programs I’ve had randomly change volumes to 100% and would be horrific if I didn’t have a preamp. Just saying.

 

:)

Tim Connor

KitsuneHifi.com / HoloAudio USA

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18 minutes ago, Bimmer100 said:

Maybe it’s great for hqplayer but some other programs I’ve had randomly change volumes to 100% and would be horrific if I didn’t have a preamp. Just saying.

 

That is always a risk, especially in an OS like Windows. Since Windows decides to for example change the default audio output device on it's own. I usually direct default sounds to the mainboard audio so that notification sounds and "normal applications" don't try to play sounds to the DAC. Plug in a USB audio device and Windows usually switches it to be the default audio device without asking.

 

With embedded operating systems / players it is less risky, since they are single purpose systems with no emails applications or similar.

 

But this goes also into gain matching category. Since pre-"amps" are nowadays actually pre-"atts", it is important for signal fidelity to match gains such way that there is not too much back and forth attenuation and gain. It is pretty pointless and damaging to first attenuate signal a lot just to amplify it even more in next stage. Still, even with pre-amp/att you can optimize signal fidelity by setting it's volume control as high as you would ever listen and then attenuate from there using digital volume control. So you'd never actually touch the pre's volume at all.

 

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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33 minutes ago, Bimmer100 said:

Maybe it’s great for hqplayer but some other programs I’ve had randomly change volumes to 100% and would be horrific if I didn’t have a preamp.

 

Right, that is the concern.  As you need a preamp for source switching (at the very least) having a preamp is no big deal for you.  My use is different, my audio system is digital only, with no TV involved or vinyl playback, and in my living room (TV/video system is only in the bedroom in my home, it is not a priority for me).  I try to keep the audio system as simple as possible, reducing box count and active stages.

If one is really careful with how they set up the gain of their system, such that the DAC output cannot clip the amp, one is mostly safe, as speakers are usually only damaged by clipping (overdriving) the amplifier, rather than just undistorted high level signals (unless one is running some kind of monstrous amplifier with very sensitive speakers).  The problem with this is that there are some recordings (mostly audiophile labels) which are at very low average levels, which require a bit more gain in the system; I find I have to have more output available from the DAC than that which will drive the amplifier to full power for playback of these recordings, so if the volume control suddenly went to full scale with a contemporary pop recording it could be a disaster here.

Anyway, different strokes, not every component is suitable for every set up, no worries!  

 

The May looks amazing, and to me offers very good value considering the build quality.

 

@Miska, It is good to hear that you feel HQPe is pretty reliable in this regard to volume control stability, I have a lot of projects going on right now, but as we come into summer later, my stuff usually slows down and I will be looking into building a server specifically to run HQPe 4, i briefly auditioned the EC modulators at DSD 256 via NAA here and was so impressed with the sound quality, Wow!

SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers.  ISOAcoustics Oreas footers.                                                       

                                                                                           SONORE computer audio

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49 minutes ago, barrows said:

Right, that is the concern.  As you need a preamp for source switching (at the very least) having a preamp is no big deal for you.  My use is different, my audio system is digital only, with no TV involved or vinyl playback, and in my living room (TV/video system is only in the bedroom in my home, it is not a priority for me).  I try to keep the audio system as simple as possible, reducing box count and active stages.

Correct me if I’m wrong but when I think of small compact setup I think of a small bookshelf speaker system with maybe an integrated class D amp/dac all in one. 

 

If this is the case. Definitely definitely do not get the May. Sure it can be used. But is meant to be one of a stack of components like traditional audio. Not like the modern class D their integrated amps which are incredibly compact and efficient. Simple can translate to looking elegant however makes it more difficult to deliver truly elegant sound if it must be crammed all into one box. Just my opinion 

However performance is generally not likely to be ultra high end if an AIO, or in some rare cases maybe it’s possible but entirely unlikely to find many products like this. It’s truly niche.


I use my kte spring1 but am using the azure as the preamp and ahb2 as amp. And my TV (optical), CD (BNC), KTE LCR1 MK4 (phono stage into preamp direct of course) and nvidia shield (USB into dac) and lastly, KTE SU2 via i2s, and with usb from laptop. That all still uses azure as preamp. But nothing simple about my home stereo system.

 

The AHB2 would blow my zu soul supremes /undertone mk2 in a split second if I didn’t have a preamp. And if My primary concern was a compact system, I would not look at the May as an option. As it’s primary function was never meant to be compact... hence two chassis.... large ones at that. But it’s design is able to achieve incredible measurements and amazing sound quality. So would never consider digital control as a solution. And would never recommend a dac like May for compact system. Something more compact like the cyan would suit for needs of all digital system and has digital volume well implemented and extemely affordable price. the May seems overkill imo if just using for small setup. I would think the May would be better matched with larger speakers, subwoofers etc. To appreciate the full dynamic range it’s able to output.  

Maybe in the future we can find some way to make a nice AIO similar to Cyan yet at a higher spec. It would not be an easy thing to do. But if we get enough requests from customers for such an animal. We would consider it.

 

We have a short list of some incredibly exciting new products coming in the future. However cannot five specifics at this time. Just know we will be delivering some great things. Hopefully we will get more feedback from customers for products they may like to see or features too. 
 

best

-Tim

 

 

Tim Connor

KitsuneHifi.com / HoloAudio USA

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