HOLO Audio Spring DAC - R2R DSD512

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9 minutes ago, routlaw said:

Thanks I found it this time, oddly enough. So it appears you need Windows to install the FW update, but obviously not the USB driver if on a Mac. Presumably once the FW is installed the benefits would still exist if using the L1 Spring working with a Mac?

The firmware is for the actual xu208 chip. So yes, the benefits are for a Mac and Linux. It’s just the firmware tool is avail for windows. 

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The firmwares are ONLY for xu208!!!

if you have the original U8 module do not use this firmware!

its mentioned in instructions 

you can choose to upgrade to xu208 module if you want. We sell the upgrade modules on our site. And they now have 21.16firmware (current) pre loaded 

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That big film capacitor is not for signal coupling. It’s used for power supply.

 

There is no capacitor in the signal path of Cyan, Spring and May. All are direct coupled.

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12 hours ago, barrows said:

Oh, and very quickly: it looks like the KTE version includes a box over the what is likely the R2R (PCM) converter.  I am guessing the DSD converter is on the board beneath?  Is there also a box over that?  I am more interested din DSD than PCM...  And I know that temperature variations can cause distortions in these types of circuits, ir seems like a box (or shield if one prefers) could lead to better temperature stability and less distortion.

Can the PCM converter boards be removed if one only wants to have DSD conversion available?

 

Very interested in the May DAC for its single bit, straight DSD conversion for use with HQPlayer conversion to DSD 256.

no. The boards have pcm and dsd resistor networks on them and cannot be removed if you choose to only want Dsd. There is no dsd only model of the May. And no plans for one. It does pcm and dsd incredibly well. And they block emi/rf primarily and the bottom of the chassis does just fine for the bottom side. 
 

thermal stability is achieved approximately 48-72hours. Primarily 24 hours it’s pretty good.

 

not sure what you mean about your last quote. The spring and spring2 dac also does dsd natively. May does too. But is dual mono.

 

the May’s strong point is it’s PLL Circuit. If you have read atomic bobs measurements over at super best audio friends you will see just how good the Kte May really is! For the first time ever they had to change the graphs to show the measurements properly. Normally 140db range was fine... but for KTE May they needed graphs to go to 160dB to capture/show it all. It’s the best dac ever measured according to them. And even with a bad source with high jitter it will completely remove jitter and always have a perfect sound/signal. Effective resolution output is about 23bit. 23.18bit according to best case. But averaging at 23bit is pretty darn good  
 

 

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23 minutes ago, jabbr said:

Wow! That’s unheard of. Does the FPGA update the correction values/DEM based on temp, or do you calibrate once it’s reached steady state temp? Can you recalibrate/relinearize?

To give you an idea... when the dac was being measured by the third party company. They did measurements from it being cold state, also moderate and fully warmed up. The dac did exceptionally well in all situations, dynamic range was from 139.8-141.3dB yet they chose to publish the average @ 140.4.

 

the dac was with them for quite some time but they mentioned 168hours of warm up. So it is capable to have very accurate resistor values at all temps, but as you would assume. A little better when thermally stable. In all situations it’s still was 23bit effective output resolution 

 

here is a link to the measurements. 
https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/kte-may-technical-measurements.8933/

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1 hour ago, barrows said:

Hey Tim, any reason you and Jeff choose not to implement an analog volume control in the DAC?  Do you prefer to control volume in software, or the use of a preamp?  I understand what is required for a good volume control, and that it is not trivial.  

yes, it’s not trivial and there simply is no space to put a “proper” analog volume control in the May dac. Its remote has volume controls as it’s designed to work with something like our Azure preamp, but specifically the new flagship product coming, “serene” headamp/preamp which is same form factor size to match. 
We would not implement any digital volume control as that isn’t really a good option for a higher end dac like this. Anyhow, very very few users have mentioned this, but it’s a pure dac and that is what it is. Once the serene comes out it would be an incredible matching setup with the finest components for preamp/and headamp. And one remote to control them both.

 

To add a proper volume control in the May would increase its price exponentially!!! seriously, we are talking about 2000usd more if we are going to “do it right” and put a real high spec volume control into this dac. It is already priced conservatively@its performance spec level and all out enjoyable sound quality. 
 

As far as to why the volume control is hard to implement into the current May dac chassis... I don’t think I should have to explain that one much. But for the right components to be used, it requires a lot more space than what is available in the May dac. 

and you may say... why not digita volume? Because even with digital volume control it changes too many variables for what the dac module must achieve as well. Such as the cyan being 28bit design and required for the digital volume control But the cyan does not have linear compensation since that implementation would be very complex!!

But implementing that into a May? No, that gets beyond complex and more than likely would not achieve the same results the May dac is capable of. Surely a challenge beyond that what was already achieved with the May. Imo the May was an achievement or one could say engineering marvel. It’s dual mono, linear compensation, and the PLL circuit is likely the most powerful of any dac, at least that I’m aware of. And measurements clearly show this. The PLL alone was a big undertaking to work on and Jeff is quite proud of it. Part of the reason we had to delay The release but we truly feel it was worth it!

 

side note: and the ASR is a L2 May and the SBaF measurements is for KTE May with hand selected modules amongst many other upgrades. And they calculated the effective output. They provided me those figures and based on the calculations of DNR it’s correct. Talk with Bob and ask him if you have questions. 
 

nit picking? Sure why not. It’s spectacular measurements and maybe some of the best I’ve ever seen but they always can be better right? Measurebaters are everywhere, and some may have negative things to say about the May L1, L2 or KTE ... but compared to what? Perfection? It’s not perfect, but no dac is... sorry for the humor but really  
 

personally I’m a fan of listening to the KTE May and that is what I truly love about the KTE May. It was carefully voiced with its spec’d KTE caps and HoloAudio caps.
 

for those who know me, I’m into very much into vinyl and enjoy collecting many Japanese pressed records. I have been working this week on converting vinyl to digital with our “new” KTE LCR1 MK4 phono stage and a usb device to remaster some vinyl albums “white whales” I made for my personal collection and am very pleased with the ability to hear the most insanely tiny details which helps me remaster some of my favorite albums to sound as good or clean as digital releases. I love analog natural sound and had owned so many dacs on the past and so many sound so darn digital and “off”. At least to my ears. Anyhow, I’m passionate about my music and love the feeling I get when listening to this KTE May dac.  I describe it as having an intoxicating sound that can really pull you into the music and get your feet tapping. I hope our customers feel similar and am excited for those who have interest in the dac. I think they are in for a real treat. Personally I believe it’s set the bar really high and am proud of this product. But know it won’t please everyone. So I’m sorry to those who need a preamp built in too, and be a world class dac and be at a price that is quite reasonable too.  We did our best to bring the May dac at its performance price point. And for those who see it’s BOM will know its a very high spec build.

sure it would be neat if it had the preamp built in, but hope my explanation clears things up. It’s a flagship dac and simply would be so large And significantly more pricey if it had a commensurate performing preamp in it. 
 

I hope I didn’t say anything to offend anyone but truly hope this response was helpful. We honestly appreciate all the feedback from our customers. In fact the May dac has some features that were requested by many users! Including the new soft start function with the power button on the front side. And support for multiple i2s pin outs!!! Lots of cool features that some reviewers didn’t mention or overlooked. And the PLL circuit is a bigger feature than some may realize. Also the PLL can be turned off for those curious how much of a difference it really makes! Anyhow. It’s an exciting piece of tech and happy to talk to anyone @my site if you have questions. 
I don’t follow forums as often as I would like to. And apologize if I miss some people’s questions. I encourage you to contact me direct at my site if I don’t reply soon enough or whatnot. Thank you every one who has supported and continues to support our company and spread positive word to others! We really want to build a very positive future forward and listening to our customers is definitely important so I had to respond to this. So thanks for the feedback! Maybe in the future we can do an AIO flagship. But our plans was to have a separate system, “serene” which will provide a no compromise combo. We don’t have the release date for the serene, but won’t take as long as May!

But remember we are still smaller than most company’s and have a ways to grow still before we can do many projects at once. and our motto... “time will tell...” means a few things but primarily two... in time our company will prove itself after hard work and growth through delivering products that are recognized for their quality and support to match. We believe if we do things right, the product speaks for itself and time will simply be on our side. 
 

and the second is our obsession with time domain and the importance of it. Each product we make has excellent time domain performance and part of the reason it sounds so natural and analog. 

 

anyhow, this is a good end to the response so hope this was informative.

 

-Tim Connor

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

There is no need to implement digital volume control into a DAC, because it can be done by the player before the DAC, just like any other DSP functionality. I personally prefer to just have bit-perfect DAC, which are not so easy to find these days in first place!

 

True but not everyone has a player. Some use the dac with a TV, CD player, other digital sources etc. like I do. But currently am using an Azure as my preamp in my loud speaker system and an original KTE Spring1 w/AHB2 as my amp.

And also using Azure for my headphone system at my desk w/KTE May. And imo is transparent and does the dac justice. 

 

In some cases it would be “enough” if using a player as your digital volume control...

 

but I also use my desktop PC to play computers games like Witcher3 or  Red Dead redemption etc. cyberpunk 2077 soon?  anyhow. Using a May dac for this might be overkill. But having a good preamp is a must for me. And I have a handful of great options I could recommend to those who are in the market. I can’t rely on digital volume control to be 100% full proof. Maybe it’s great for hqplayer but some other programs I’ve had randomly change volumes to 100% and would be horrific if I didn’t have a preamp. Just saying.

 

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49 minutes ago, barrows said:

Right, that is the concern.  As you need a preamp for source switching (at the very least) having a preamp is no big deal for you.  My use is different, my audio system is digital only, with no TV involved or vinyl playback, and in my living room (TV/video system is only in the bedroom in my home, it is not a priority for me).  I try to keep the audio system as simple as possible, reducing box count and active stages.

Correct me if I’m wrong but when I think of small compact setup I think of a small bookshelf speaker system with maybe an integrated class D amp/dac all in one. 

 

If this is the case. Definitely definitely do not get the May. Sure it can be used. But is meant to be one of a stack of components like traditional audio. Not like the modern class D their integrated amps which are incredibly compact and efficient. Simple can translate to looking elegant however makes it more difficult to deliver truly elegant sound if it must be crammed all into one box. Just my opinion 

However performance is generally not likely to be ultra high end if an AIO, or in some rare cases maybe it’s possible but entirely unlikely to find many products like this. It’s truly niche.

I use my kte spring1 but am using the azure as the preamp and ahb2 as amp. And my TV (optical), CD (BNC), KTE LCR1 MK4 (phono stage into preamp direct of course) and nvidia shield (USB into dac) and lastly, KTE SU2 via i2s, and with usb from laptop. That all still uses azure as preamp. But nothing simple about my home stereo system.

 

The AHB2 would blow my zu soul supremes /undertone mk2 in a split second if I didn’t have a preamp. And if My primary concern was a compact system, I would not look at the May as an option. As it’s primary function was never meant to be compact... hence two chassis.... large ones at that. But it’s design is able to achieve incredible measurements and amazing sound quality. So would never consider digital control as a solution. And would never recommend a dac like May for compact system. Something more compact like the cyan would suit for needs of all digital system and has digital volume well implemented and extemely affordable price. the May seems overkill imo if just using for small setup. I would think the May would be better matched with larger speakers, subwoofers etc. To appreciate the full dynamic range it’s able to output.  

Maybe in the future we can find some way to make a nice AIO similar to Cyan yet at a higher spec. It would not be an easy thing to do. But if we get enough requests from customers for such an animal. We would consider it.

 

We have a short list of some incredibly exciting new products coming in the future. However cannot five specifics at this time. Just know we will be delivering some great things. Hopefully we will get more feedback from customers for products they may like to see or features too. 
 

best

-Tim

 

 

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1 hour ago, Miska said:

 

That is always a risk, especially in an OS like Windows. Since Windows decides to for example change the default audio output device on it's own. I usually direct default sounds to the mainboard audio so that notification sounds and "normal applications" don't try to play sounds to the DAC. Plug in a USB audio device and Windows usually switches it to be the default audio device without asking.

 

With embedded operating systems / players it is less risky, since they are single purpose systems with no emails applications or similar.

 

But this goes also into gain matching category. Since pre-"amps" are nowadays actually pre-"atts", it is important for signal fidelity to match gains such way that there is not too much back and forth attenuation and gain. It is pretty pointless and damaging to first attenuate signal a lot just to amplify it even more in next stage. Still, even with pre-amp/att you can optimize signal fidelity by setting it's volume control as high as you would ever listen and then attenuate from there using digital volume control. So you'd never actually touch the pre's volume at all.

 

Sure! I agree with this of course.and know where you are coming from. (Talking about the last part of your response and preamps and digital volume....

 

but the first part of your response... most of our customers use operating systems like windows 10 so the reality is what it is. The whole Os debate could go on and on. But what works for one person may not work for the next. I still recommend a preamp to anyone. As long as it’s a good one. Since many preamps are pretty darn poor quality and degrade the signal.  But some preamps do not.

hopefully that anyone who is looking to use the May in their system will realize a quality preamp is still highly recommended in most cases... (not all cases) 

 

personally I have been most excited for the serene preamp/headamp for my own reasons. But that amp will drive susvara’s incredibly well with a lot of headroom. And also have a very high spec’d analog relay based volume control. And share the same chassis as may, same display. And planned to have many output on front for heapdhones, and plenty of inputs to make  for a very capable preamp for high end full featured loud speakers setup. 
 

 

on another note, for those who are into vinyl.... the KTE LCR-1 MK4 is new and looking for some reviewers. Imo one of the exciting products for myself as i spend a lot of time with my japanese vinyl collection. I listen to as much analog as I do digital. Sure the May sounds better but no replacement for being hands on with a nice gatefold album, cool inserts and the feel of vinyl!

 

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And this is why I don’t post on forums. Everyone has an opinion. And I’m not here to fight over who is right or wrong. 
That being said. I respect your opinion. And you can disagree with mine too. However I’m not going to debate it with you either 

 

also adding: I was speaking “in general” and not literal as in all cases. So don’t take it literally. I’ll keep my opinion to myself entirely here forward! 

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1 hour ago, barrows said:

 I believe in the principle of make it as simple as possible, but no simpler than necessary.

What necessary for you is different for the next guy
i cannot stand when one had such a strong opinion it must trump all others.

seriously. Lighten up man  

me saying “correct me if I’m wrong” was not meaning literally tell me all the ways I’m wrong justify all the ways you are right. It’s a nice way of saying. In general I see compact systems this way however not on all cases....  your opinion is legit as mine is too.  I won’t justify mine. It’s ok as is.

 

anyhoooo. 
 

2 minutes ago, audio.bill said:

No Tim, please don't do that... It's great to have your active participation here and your opinion has value to others! There may be some disagreement along the way but that's all a part of how we can continue to learn from each other's experiences. I appreciate your valued perspective which of course will include some opinions along the way.

 

Thanks for this, but please understand I’ve got a lot of my plate and love to jump in here and there to help answer questions like Barrows assuming/guessing/wondering what we’re using specific caps for in circuit. They are for the power supply so it’s great to get clarification on things so everyone knows. 

 

and sharing the exciting new third party measurements of the KTE May which definitely should vary from ASR’s measurements considering they measured a Level2 May.

 

and Atomic bob @sbaf also is measuring a KTE Spring2 as well. Those might be up in the near future too.

 

i take it all with a grain of salt but really have a sore spot for when forums turn into a right and wrong debate. It should be focused on mostly positive contributions from many users, all while having a mutual respect for each other’s opinions. Not to forget that audio or the perception and enjoyment of audio is subjective. And measurebaters focusing on measurements as a primary way to enjoy music will inevitably continue, but that is truly one side of the coin. I hope that most will find the May has it covered on both sides. It sounds as good as the measurements show. And maybe you can doubt the results, but don’t take it out on me. We have third parties do it for a reason. 
 

anyhow, I’ll chime in once in a while. But not going to entertain debates about whose opinion is right. Imo we both are right.... so there!

So so Sorry! But my opinion can be shared off of forums. It’s better that way. In my opinion  

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58 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

 

Hi Tim (if you're still here).

 

I've been looking for a Holo DSD DAC but with headamp output (analogue volume control).

 

Is this what Serene will be? Or no DAC inside Serene?

 

 

 

serene will be totl or flagship preamp/headamp. Same form factor as spring/spring2/May dac chassis and designed to pair perfectly with these products. It will be an absolutely epic preamp/headamp with tech similar to azure yet many improvements of course. 
 

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40 minutes ago, GoldenOne said:

Are you able to confirm if the serene will include a headphone amp? Your msg said it will, but the unit that WolfX received to measure didn't seem to have any headphone outs (but did have all 8 modules as in the azure).

Hoping it will have a headphone amp! So excited to get one.

There will be two versions. One is preamp serene, the other will be headamp serene.

there is too much to put both into one chassis. The headamp version is not ready yet.

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Combination of things cause uncontrolled delays. Massive flow of incoming emails has kept us working hard to respond to everyone’s questions and we are a bit behind on the release of this dac. However I finally have the final production spring3 which will go in for photos soon when temp is down to sane levels.. However some maybe have heard the news of the northwest… we have been hit with a massive heatwave here. Breaking records!! It was over 106 or 41C. And our work area does not have Aircon yet. Won’t be until the 9th til we get Aircon installed!

 

So sadly I have been behind as It’s not safe to work in heat like this. Thank you to those who understand what hell it can be to be stuck in this heat. But I have managed some hours past midnight to get a little here and there done. Sorry not many really care about it, but it’s been a huge hiccup for the most recent end of month release date estimate , and many customers just want to order a spring3. I’m going to hope for better weather to get the photos taken this weekend and get the product page up a couple days after. However as excited as many are to get their orders in… the product page will progressively improve over time. But will get the basic info and photos up right away to allow everyone to place their orders!

I thank everyone for being understanding in the matter! We have had some struggles to get this great product out to everyone. And we appreciate those who are patient with delays and longer wait times in getting back with requests. But one thing that would help us a TON is to wait to email us about the spring3 release date. As I respond to 100+ emails a day about spring3 and would be amazed how much more time I could spend on getting this product page up and going :) I’m just as excited to get this page live and ready to accept orders. We also have ramped up our production team to help reduce significantly for production wait times. So I’m excited to hear what everyone thinks of this great dac :) 

 

Best

 

-Tim Connor

KitsuneHiFi

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3 hours ago, wanta911 said:

Happy New Year!

 

I have an issue with the USB input on my Spring 3 KTE that was delivered in late September. Usually I feed it either USB from my 2015 MacBook Air using Audirvana for headphone listening or AES from my streamer/MiniDSP room correction setup for speaker listening and have had zero issues.

 

Anyway, yesterday I got a new MacBook Air with the M1 processor and USB C outputs. I have both USB C to USB A adapters and a USB C hub so I thought it shouldn’t be a problem - I thought wrong! Every time I connect to the Spring my MacBook crashes, I have tried different adapters, a USB hub, different USB cables, different powering on routines but the same result every time.

 

So I started to curse Apple (a lot) before I thought about trying a different DAC with the new Mac. It’s a good thing I’m a DAC hoarder and too lazy to flip my stash.

 

Using just a $15 USB C to USB A adapter it all worked flawlessly with every other DAC I tried:

 

Topping D10S

Topping D70

RME ADI 2

Chord Qutest

 

So the issue is unique to the Spring.

 

I've contacted my dealer and asked him to contact Holo Audio. I know there are USB firmware updates but surely they are for Windows and not Mac OS?

 

Just thought I'd post the issue here in case anyone has any experience with this?

There are firmware updates that address the issues with macOS. However they require a windows pc to load the firmware. Your issue will be addressed if you can get access to a windows pc, or use emulator on your Mac to run windows OS. Like boot camp or parallels.
 

the newest firmware is 31.42 and will be on our site soon. Albeit 31.40 also addresses the issue you mentioned.

 

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1 hour ago, fahrbot said:

Anyone know if there are Windows USB driver updates for Spring DACs? I doubt there are changes that affect sound quality but just curious if checking the KitsuneHiFi store page is the only way to get drivers.

 

Edit: e.g. Denafrips and Topping that use the same Thesycon USB driver have updated to 5.57

V5.57.00 is avail for download. Main changes are support for windows11 improved significantly. For those who use win11 it’s worth getting this driver, otherwise if you are using win10 it’s not really too important. :)

personally I’ll be waiting at least another year before considering windows11 in my own machine.