HOLO Audio Spring DAC - R2R DSD512

[GUTB]

I believe it was clearly stated: the DSD version will not have a SRC stage and will only be able to accept DSD streams. The PCM version WILL have a SRC stage to allow both PCM and DSD steams. The SRC stage converts DSD into PCM, and presumably be able to convert low rate PCM into high rate PCM.

 

Linear compensation as I understand it is just a means of running two ladders together in order to compensate for the less accuracy inherent in cheaper resistor modules (as opposed to MSB modules for example which use very high accuracy modules). Since DSD is 1-bit I don't believe linear compensation will make any difference.

 

So, if I was only interested in PCM I would go for the Spring. Since I want pure DSD I'm getting the DSD version.

 

The fact that the the DSD version won't have volume control is a good thing, because that means the Cyan isn't cheating on DSD, just 1-bit only so traditional methods of resistor-ladder or digital volume control won't work. You'd have to implement a pure analog volume control method which would make the Cyan a lot larger and more expensive than what it is, and still lead to a degradation in sound. It's this super purist DSD that I'm looking for.

[Miska]

21 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Is the SCR used for both versions ?

Other formats ??? It’ Either PCM input or DSD input. What other formats?

Oversampling options ??? What options that isn’t offered by HQPlayer of Roon in DSD mode. I don’t get it. 

 

The Spring does not have SCR, so why the Cyan. This is confusing. 

 

Can anyone explain to me ?

 

Hmmh, Spring does have SRC. It has four modes: NOS, OS, PCM OS and DSD OS.

 

What I've understood so far is that Cyan would have following:

For PCM model: NOS and PCM OS (PCM->PCM and DSD->PCM)

For DSD model: NOS and DSD OS (DSD->DSD and PCM->DSD)

 

With HQPlayer you'd use the NOS mode on Spring or Cyan. With some other player or source device you could use the OS modes.

 

This is my understanding which I hope is correct.

 

[R1200CL]

On 28.11.2017 at 10:34 PM, GUTB said:

SUPER PUMPED GUYS!!

 

Linear compensation is a technique for compensating for low-cost transistor modules for PCM processing, DSD is 1-bit so who cares?? Totally pure DSD DAC can't wait!

 

Sure ?

So actually the Spring is DSD mode isn’t using that technique ? Hope Tim can confirm. 

 

Another person was missing the digital volume control on the Spring where I thaught it was needed, and not so important on the Cyan. And normally your player would have that function anyway, but maybe implemented in the DAC, it works better. Well that function and a remote must also add cost. As will the none used head amp out in front as well as the none used volume knob.  Not  easy to pleas everybody....

 

Tim expects 80 % PCM. I would say opposite, but what do I know ?

My reason for interest in this product is that I have a very god PCM DAC with a very good pre stage. I heard so much nice about DSD upsamling. This product almost seems to solve it. 

Only need NOS. No volume. No remote. Only a (ugly) box to hide away. Pure DSD DAC. 

 

 

 

 

[R1200CL]

I seems the linear compensation is quite important. 

 

http://liu.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:559515/FULLTEXT01.pdf

 

 

[PeteG]

Will the DSD Cyan have a I2s input. 

[Superdad]

2 hours ago, PeteG said:

Will the DSD Cyan have a I2s input. 

 

By definition I2S is PCM.  But it could have a DSD over LVDS (w/HDMI jack) input...

[R1200CL]

3 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

By definition I2S is PCM.  But it could have a DSD over LVDS (w/HDMI jack) input...

 

Another clarification for @Bimmer100 to do. 

 

I wonder how easy it is to have the pure DSD stream in from HQPlayer or Roon as ethernet interface maybe with RAAT ?

Can that be the ultimate solution ?

[Mogos]

Will Cyan DSD have exctly the same analog output stage like Holo Spring?

[GUTB]

6 hours ago, R1200CL said:

 

Another clarification for @Bimmer100 to do. 

 

I wonder how easy it is to have the pure DSD stream in from HQPlayer or Roon as ethernet interface maybe with RAAT ?

Can that be the ultimate solution ?

 

The I2S interface was only useful for bypassing the SRC stage anyway. Since there’s no SRC in the DSD version than USB is fine.

[ted_b]

1 hour ago, GUTB said:

 

The I2S interface was only useful for bypassing the SRC stage anyway. Since there’s no SRC in the DSD version than USB is fine.

?  Not at all my understanding of the benefits of using Holo's I2S. 

[pkane2001]

1 hour ago, GUTB said:

 

The I2S interface was only useful for bypassing the SRC stage anyway. Since there’s no SRC in the DSD version than USB is fine.

 

That's not the reason for I2S. It's to allow for external DDC or other I2S sources to connect to Holo with minimum overhead, bypassing other built-in interfaces such as USB, SPDIF, etc. Holo USB is fine, but that doesn't mean everyone wants to use it.

 

When NOS mode is selected, all upsampling/resampling is bypassed, so no SRC, regardless of what input you use. 

[dmance]

@Miska

Please provide more information on the volume control in HQP when playing DSD.  I presume it's completely transparent?  

If so, then hqplayer to DSD cyan could be the ideal.

[Superdad]

9 hours ago, GUTB said:

The I2S interface was only useful for bypassing the SRC stage anyway. Since there’s no SRC in the DSD version than USB is fine.

 

7 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

That's not the reason for I2S. It's to allow for external DDC or other I2S sources to connect to Holo with minimum overhead, bypassing other built-in interfaces such as USB, SPDIF, etc. Holo USB is fine, but that doesn't mean everyone wants to use it.

 

I own both an SU-1 and Spring L3.  The primary benefit to using the I2S input is that it supplants the Spring's dirt-cheap [audio sample] clocks with the Crystek CCHD-575 clocks of the SU-1.

Beyond that there is not a lot particularly better about the SU-1's USB input versus that of the Spring.  (Both USB inputs are bus-powered and benefit similarly from better than noisy, leakage-filled computer VBUS.)

[Superdad]

16 hours ago, R1200CL said:

I wonder how easy it is to have the pure DSD stream in from HQPlayer or Roon as ethernet interface maybe with RAAT ?

Can that be the ultimate solution ?

 

Are you suggesting incorporation of an internal, Roon-endpoint, Ethernet>I2S/DSD interface board?  Care to name one available for OEMs?

 

Careful with that can of worms my friend.  

[pkane2001]

17 minutes ago, Superdad said:

I own both an SU-1 and Spring L3.  The primary benefit to using the I2S input is that it supplants the Spring's dirt-cheap [audio sample] clocks with the Crystek CCHD-575 clocks of the SU-1.

Beyond that there is not a lot particularly better about the SU-1's USB input versus that of the Spring.  (Both USB inputs are bus-powered and benefit similarly from better than noisy, leakage-filled computer VBUS.)

 

There's also the additional galvanic isolation that SU-1 provides. And the fact that you can power it from an external 5v supply (I use a battery). Of course, a lower phase noise oscillator is also a benefit.

 

[GUTB]

BTW, I noticed that Audio-gd also has a dual resistor ladder DAC out. I can't help but feel they've copied from the Spring since as far as I know no one has done linear compensation prior. In general I don't place a lot of trust in Audio-gd's engineering so the fact they are putting out a balanced r2r DAC for $800 has me much less excited.

[Miska]

8 hours ago, Superdad said:

I own both an SU-1 and Spring L3.  The primary benefit to using the I2S input is that it supplants the Spring's dirt-cheap [audio sample] clocks with the Crystek CCHD-575 clocks of the SU-1.

Beyond that there is not a lot particularly better about the SU-1's USB input versus that of the Spring.  (Both USB inputs are bus-powered and benefit similarly from better than noisy, leakage-filled computer VBUS.)

 

Do you have measurement data (Jtest-24 plots) if it actually improves performance? Because the clocks in my Spring L2 work fine (I posted the Jtest result earlier). Sending clock over a cable doesn't necessarily improve the end result...

 

[Superdad]

11 hours ago, Miska said:

Do you have measurement data (Jtest-24 plots) if it actually improves performance? Because the clocks in my Spring L2 work fine (I posted the Jtest result earlier). Sending clock over a cable doesn't necessarily improve the end result...

 

I don't.  Obviously one would need to measure the combination of SU-1>Spring via I2S to compare to just the Spring alone.  

I suspect that a combination of factors is what results in better SQ with the SU-1>Spring. It is not huge, but it is noticeable.  Especially with power supply upgrades.  And this is fairly widely reported.

 

In the end, I enjoy the Holo Spring--it is flexible, musical, and reliable. But there are aspects of if that leave room for improvement (thinking of the analog output stage; and better clocking on-board).  Perhaps Jeff's next design---the "May" DAC I think--will carry it further. 

[Miska]

10 minutes ago, Superdad said:

I don't.  Obviously one would need to measure the combination of SU-1>Spring via I2S to compare to just the Spring alone.  

I suspect that a combination of factors is what results in better SQ with the SU-1>Spring.

 

Yeah, that's why I asked because I'm curious about the objective results since you said it's better. I doubt I'd buy SU-1 just to measure the combination...

 

[beerandmusic]

2 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

I don't.  Obviously one would need to measure the combination of SU-1>Spring via I2S to compare to just the Spring alone.  

I suspect that a combination of factors is what results in better SQ with the SU-1>Spring. It is not huge, but it is noticeable.  Especially with power supply upgrades.  And this is fairly widely reported.

 

In the end, I enjoy the Holo Spring--it is flexible, musical, and reliable. But there are aspects of if that leave room for improvement (thinking of the analog output stage; and better clocking on-board).  Perhaps Jeff's next design---the "May" DAC I think--will carry it further. 

 

Do you refer to it as the "may" dac as it is due to be released in May 2018?

I haven't forgotten you suggested the HOLO to me...and i do trust your judgement (grin).

When you say better clocking, i am guessing you mean using the crystek(sp?) femto clocks that seem to be gaining popularity?  Lastly, what will be different with analog output stage?

What about the Holo Cyan DSD, does it have either of these 2 improvements, or should wait for "may" dac?  I am waiting until after CES regardless....but will likely make my decision sometime after that.

 

I wish they would add an enet port to their dacs.

[oneguy]

I haven’t seen a specific release month for the May. Just middle of 2018 was the target I had seen posted as the release window. 

 

An ethernet port would be nice as well. It would allow me to greatly simplify things and get rid of 4 boxes in my audio setup. 

[Miska]

11 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

I wish they would add an enet port to their dacs.

 

Hmmh, my first question immediately would be what is behind that ethernet port. IOW, what protocols it supports, etc.

 

It is not as simple thing as USB...

[beerandmusic]

2 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Hmmh, my first question immediately would be what is behind that ethernet port. IOW, what protocols it supports, etc.

 

It is not as simple thing as USB...

dlna, raat, and of course....Naa (wink)

[Miska]

25 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

dlna, raat, and of course....Naa (wink)

 

Sounds good to me...

 

NAA support is of course up to manufacturers.

 

[giordy60]

24 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

dlna, raat, and of course....Naa (wink)

so nothing dante or ravenna ? 

raat is the roon protocol ?