HOLO Audio Spring DAC - R2R DSD512

[ted_b]

This dac does NOT do DSD512. From Jeff Zhu, the designer:

 

 

By now, Spring can't support DSD512. You might see some picture

shows DSD512 but it's not supported by now. I was planned to support that,

but it seems have no music source at all even the test file. Sony has

stopped DSD and turn to DXD now. So DSD256 might be the end of DSD. However,

DSD512 is not so hard. If it is really needed, I can put it into 'May'.

Spring can support DSD512 by upgrading the firmware also, but it must return

to factory. I'm afraid it will bring some troubles for dealing this matter.

 

The oversampling is done by AK4137,

'OS PCM' converts the input stream to PCM no matter it is

PCM or DSD, then send to DAC.

'OS DSD' converts the input stream to DSD no matter is is

PCM or DSD, then send to DAC.

'OS' oversamples the input stream. If it is DSD input, it

oversample to DSD256. If it is PCM input, it oversample to PCM384K or 352.8K

'NOS' does no oversampling. send the input stream directly

to DAC module.

 

About DSD 'native', it is the way the USB transfer the stream. You

know DOP, which is DSD Over PCM. DOP put the DSD into a PCM stream. At the

receiver end, it just unpack the PCM stream and get the DSD back. DOP does

NOT change any bit of DSD stream, just sending it with the package. So it

waste some data rate. At the same data rate, DOP is 1/2 of DSD native, the

other 1/2 is the package. So DOP and DSD native are all bit perfect. The DSD

stream sending to DAC is all the same.

 

So, now you should know, DSD native is just about the way it

transfer the stream. Not describing the way it doing digital to analog

conversion. At the DAC stage, the DSD stream can convert to PCM then do the

final digital to analog covert. Actually, most DAC chips doing this inside

the chip. One point need to be remember, DSD stream can't do volume

attenuation. If this chip can do digital volume control under DSD mode, then

is must converted to PCM already.

 

Let's go back to Spring. If Spring works in 'NOS' mode. There is no

oversampling, no conversion, just the original data doing the final digital

to analog conversion. I will not explain how it does PCM conversion, you

should already know quite well about it. There is a lot of resistor ladder

DAC, they are born to do this. I just explain how Spring can do 'discrete

DSD conversion'. Actually it is like DCS and CHORD. If you looking to DCS

and CHORD's pcb, you will find 'discrete DSD conversion' is also using

switches and precision resistors, like resistor ladder dacs. So, no matter

it is 'discrete DSD conversion' or 'discrete PCM conversion', they all use

the same discrete devices. Just work in different architecture. That makes

possible to combine these two modes in one device.

 

Best Regards

Jeff Zhu

[ted_b]

So way up this page there designer was quoted as saying DSD512 was off because there's no native content and Sony has given up on the standard in favour of DXD, and even then it's still looking sketchy.

 

But what people are doing now is running HQPlayer's upsampling engine and just converting anything to DSD512. Having that feature along with the rest makes this DAC attractive.

 

Is there anyone that could contact the DAC designer and explain that use case, how it's really gaining steam, and try to have it implemented?

 

Sent from my SM-N9200 using Computer Audiophile mobile app

 

I have, He's working on it, but maybe only for his new May dac. Stay tuned.

[ted_b]

You really need to get some of these DACs out for review.

 

Get some reviews stating that the DAC punches well above it's price point and you will get lots of orders. Many people want a better DAC but are put off by the Mega prices so common today.

 

I have offered. We are trying to work it out.

[ted_b]

So, some of you are aware I have one of Tim's first Spring dacs here in the US, for review. I am not going to give anything away, but am very pleased so far...ESPECIALLY to announce that through the help of Jesus and Andrew (at Sonore), Juergen and his Linux github, and Tim and Jeff's custom handling of my request to get this dac available for native DSD in Linux..today I updated my uRendu and now have full native Linux support to DSD512 (and DoP to 256). And I also have the evaluation Windows driver that also does up to DSD512 natively. Things are moving quickly. The certified Windows driver should be available sometime after RMAF (fingers crossed). But did I say Linux native DSD to DSD512 and PCM to 24/768?

 

Stay tuned.

[ted_b]

Ted which model are you demoing?

 

Can someone speak with authority as to the output stage? Is there any difference in XLR vs. SE?

 

Discrete output?

I have a "KitsuneTuned Edition Spring Dac".

From Tim:

"It has our exclusive KitsuneTuned O-Type Transformer that is 99.99% silver! We have it made specifically to our specification with a sourced wire from the netherlands. Also we have added Jensen Caps which are also found on the Level 2 model. These caps make a drastic difference in sound quality. As the silver transformer makes ever more of a percentage increase of performance."

 

And yes, Jeff insists the XLRs sound better than RCA, but my go-to preamp is single ended. I am going to have my Bent TAP (passive but balanced) back from a buddy soon and will test that, but my Perla preamp is much better and my go-to. The Bent will simply allow me to a/b single ended and balanced.

[ted_b]

Hi, Distinctive!

 

If you are a DIY audiophile and you can accept a SD memory card media, I'd like to recommend this SD memory card player board kit,SDTrans384 designed by Chiaki,

GB: SDTrans384 - A micro SD card digital transport - diyAudio

[ATTACH=CONFIG]30056[/ATTACH]

 

The player has one PS-Audio compatible output with HDMI connector.

Its total performance depends on power supplies, memory cards you would prepare. If you are not any DIYer, it will not fit you.

 

Bunpei

 

Bunpei (and Greg), very cool.

1) I assume by reading the DIY thread that the I2S HDMI is the PS Audio "standard"?

2) What would it cost (US$) to build one for me? ......seriously (I could care less about case, esthetics)

3) after doing more reading I now realize (doh!) that this is over 5 years old. Any changes since then? Any used ones on the market; not sure what its called in common parlance, and sdtrans 384? Any different uses of the sd card input (like daisy chaining or anything)?

[ted_b]

The AKM SRC inside DAC can also upsample to max DSD256 by selecting OS DSD mode. Has anyone compare this with HQPlayer?

 

I did. A slightly metallic sheen covers the music versus the sq of HQPlayer (via Spring NOS).

[ted_b]

Thanks Ted_B, is the latest unit(firmware) were able to DSD512 natively using latest Windows driver provided by Holo Audio Springs? I heard in the forum about PCM 768k but not sure this is supported.

 

Feel free to read my review here. Both Linux (ie microRendu) and Windows supports DSD512 natively (i.e no DoP needed). It's my go-to.

[ted_b]

Ted, is the interface clean? Meaning do you have any loud pops or ticks with the Holo Spring in DSD 512 native?

 

Larry, to be frank I can't find any native DSD Linux implementation (via, say, microRendu) that doesn't have loud pops at the start of playing any DSD format, whether upsampled or not. If the player (HQPlayer in my case) doesn't stop, then all is fine after the first pop (which i control via volume for the first few seconds). I've told everyone I know about this but no one seems to have a fix. If I find other songs to play I add then to the end. I pretty much stay in DSD512 mode, but invariably I have to stop the playback for some reason, and am used to it enough to remember to turn down the volume at the start again.

[ted_b]

Thanks Ted, I was hoping for a different answer but am not surprised. With HQplayer on Windows upsampling DSD512 native to the IFI microIDSD, if I am disciplined I can boot and play music without any loud pops, and only have to put up with ticks when track resolution changes. The most important thing is wait until the DAC is back in PCM mode once DSD play is finished. I can hear this mode switch as it causes a small tick. Once done, HQplayer operations are safe.

 

I don't use an NAA, and when I do it's on Linux and always ends in disaster. Actually anything Linux ends in disaster.

 

The T+A DSD DAC 8 is completely clean with native DSD on Windows, so it can be done.

 

I dread trying out a new DAC. The Holo Spring DAC is interesting, but I'll wait until it is better integrated.

 

? Just like the T+A (which you haven't yet heard in native DSD) the Holo plays native DSD fine via Windows ASIO, whether NAA or not. The jury is out until Amanero allows for microRendu native DSD. Only then we can see if its dac-related or microRendu related or Linux in general (although as Eric says, it can be done). But my bet is it is not Holo, as others non-Holo users report the same pops. As I said, it is no real issue anymore with me cuz I am disciplined with the muting and am primarily letting HQplayer run in DSD512 ad nauseum.

[ted_b]

OK, I have it working now... turns out i had the wrong audio device selected (ahem) - in my defence, the pink faun just appears as another generic audio device....

 

So now I am fighting with Miska's NAA under Windows. It took me a while to figure out that NAA only supports ASIO drivers under Windows (some documentation would be nice), so I just installed ASIO4ALL and pointed it at the Pink Faun device, but NAA crashes when I start playing music. I've had enough for one night. I'll take a closer look and try again tomorrow. If I can't get it working quickly, I'll probably install Linux on another partition and see if I can get that working.

 

My recommendation would be to start with a standard HQplayer setup first, so as to test all rates and situations with the PF, let alone rate the sound quality. Only then would I move on to a "dual pc" NAA setup.

[ted_b]

my DACs do not exhibit any problem with DSD (DoP) files served from the µRendu... But, I do think it would be wise for the MPD developers to play 500 mS of silence at the start of playback to give DACs a little more time to secure lock, jRiver for example allows for this option, and it helps a lot of DACs manage their muting better.

 

DoP does not exhibit what direct does. Singxer and others, via uRendu (DoP) is silent. It is not uRendu fault per se; it seems like some dacs (Holo, iFi, others) have a real issue in Linux going direct without a loud POP at first sight of DSD. Once there, though, all is well (until stop). I manage it through volume but it is a PITA!!

 

Note: Jesus and company are trying at their end. I just now got off a teamview with Jesus where we tried some alpha stuff to address this issue. There is still work to do.

[ted_b]

Wow, why the alert? This firmware (1692) has been since last September. It is the most recent but surprised anyone would not already have it installed from Tim/factory.

[ted_b]

No, I continue to do two things:

1) manage playlists to reduce or eliminate any PCM to DSD switching

2) manage the remote volume buttons REALLY well

 

It would be great to get rid of this issue, but the microRendu-as-NAA is better enough than Windows-as-NAA (no thumps) to make it worthwhile.

[ted_b]

For DSD to be done correctly, DAC must mute it's output for first and last 50 milliseconds of DSD data. Otherwise you are going to have clicks'n'pops.

 

OK, I understand that, but why does Holo (and others) Windows ASIO driver work fine, with no pops, but Linux driver pops? Seems not dac-based but OS based (or at least driver based).

[ted_b]

Okay guys, please correct me if I'm wrong on these points:

 

1. No XMOS device will handle DSD512.

 

2. Only Amanero devices will handle DSD512.

 

3. Only way to get DSD512 out of your PC is via USB.

 

4. Bug in the Linux driver for Amanero keeps DSD512 from working in Linux systems (i.e., MicroRendu).

 

5. The Pink Faun is a PCM device only and will never be able to handle native DSD.

 

6. There is nothing at all that will work with DSD1024.

 

7. The only way to defeat the SRC stage in a DS type DAC is to meet the following requirements:

A: Use an I2S interface,

B: Send native DSD through the I2S interface,

C: DAC implementation is programmed to allow skipping of the SRC.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

 

Please move this to the proper thread, as this is the Holo dac thread and has nothing to do with Amanero, Pink Faun, etc. The Holo dac is indeed XMOS-based and I'm getting DSD512 (as reported dozens and dozens of times!) from both Linux (microRendu) and Windows (ASIO driver). I run NOS, so SRC is also not an issue. Your list is both inaccurate and largely irrelevant to this thread.

[ted_b]

GUTB, you have a CA history of not reading or understanding, just passing out false accusations. It started with this Holo dac, and my review...(only does PCM, converts DSD to PCM, yada yada ) so yes, a bit touchy cuz you troll too often for my tastes. Ask Vinnie or any of the other good folks here!

 

Read the damn review; all your info (driver numbers, DSD512 stories, etc) are there. It's been out now for several months! And discuss Amanero, Pink Faun an other non-Holo issues elsewhere. PLEASE!

[ted_b]

Which is why lots of us use Holo's NOS mode fed by HQPlayer. Best filters/modulators/dithers in the business. Try simple poly-sinc-mp and NS4 at 352.8k.

[ted_b]

Thanks @ted_b, what I like is I can simply bypass the built-in over-sampling and digital filter and use a software base like HQP or the latest Roon 1.3 with up-sampling DSP to tailor the sound I like.

 

Most DACs in the market has little provision to allow the user to bypass the hardware over sampling and digital filter inside the DACs (especially those use off selves DAC chips) so even having a good software base up sampling like HQP, one is already severely limited by the built-in hardware over sampling and digital filter. This is main reason I brought Holo Spring DAC and I simply love the sound of this DAC!

 

Bingo!

[ted_b]

Axle_69, if you are so worried about the USB input (not sure why, myself and others love it, given enough care with the input stream) then all other digital inputs support 192k and DSD64 (DoP), and the I2S supports everything (but DSD512 in my setup).

[ted_b]

The loud pop sounds that happens in Linux OS when playing back DSD in native mode as opposed to DoP is caused by the 'digital silence' at the starting of the track. I believed we have found culprit...

 

[PATCH] ALSA: usb-audio: Eliminate noise at the start of DSD playback. — ALSA Devel

 

Does Tim or Jeff know this?

[ted_b]

Yes, but first you need to hope that the patch (from 2 months ago I may add) is applied to the Linux that microRendu uses, then hope the code is added to the SonicOrbiter stack, then hope the SU-1 typo fix gets approved in the next update. That's a few too many wishes for me to be too optimistic.

[ted_b]

Alex,

I'll ship you mine and you can work on it as the guinea pig.    I love the Holo sound (both PCM and DSD512) but hey, why not. 

[ted_b]

1 hour ago, hifi25nl said:

I have just received the Holo Audio Spring. Thanks to European distributor Magnahifi for the support and suggestions.

Linux kernel needs a patch to enable DSD native. I have already done it for Audiolinux/Archlinux, it can be found here (with Amanero and DSD "silence" patch, realtime kernel) : http://tophifi.it/ftp/packages/kernel/last/

 

The good news is that I have practically no pops (using USB input) switching from PCM to DSD or changing rates in DSD!

 

 

Piero, Hi.  I saw that in the AudioLinux notes, nice.  I don't need them cuz I use the Holo with a microRendu, which uses it's own patch for NAA playback in native, but pops persist (for initializing DSD only, not inter-track clicks, etc).  I hope to test some beta stuff soon for the pops in NAA mode.  But nice to know native pop-less DSD is supported in AudioLinux direct (from AudioLinux server to dac). 

[ted_b]

Altabay,

Hi.  No, I meant for another part of the path, the AudioLinux OS end, and how it works with HQplayer embedded as the server (and microRendu as NAA).  But I'm sure, at some part in the signal path someone will find a stop to this.  It's quite annoying in an otherwise almost perfect audio-friendly Linux world, and I'm a Windows person who knows frighteningly little about Linux.