SACD Ripping using an Oppo or Pioneer? Yes, it's true!

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Just to get my feeble brain around this before laying hands on an Oppo 103. Am I correct in understanding that this approach does not permanently modify the player in any way? It appears to load a program, probably into volatile memory in the player, then execute that program in the player when started via commands from an Ethernet-connected PC. It then delivers the rip to the same PC directory from which the rip was started. So, after rebooting the player, all traces of the ripper program are gone from the player?

 

I am am hot to trot after having burned out two PS3s.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

When I had an early firmware version of the exaSound Playpoint I experienced the same thing with AF quad SACD rips. The right rear channel was silent and the left rear and sub had right surround/left surround info. For the Playpoint it ended up being a flag that George added (as he realized they were not "standard") and the problem was solved. The same seems to be an issue with a Reference Recording or two, ones that show as 5.0. Jriver can reorder channels, but only in DSP (i.e PCM).

 

I use an Exasound e28 directly from JRiver, and I have had similar channel mapping issues, but it has been awhile, so my recollection of the details may be incorrect. My system is 7.1, and I noticed that surround channels were incorrectly mapped with some, maybe all?, 5.1 recordings. I noticed this in the Exasound onscreen level meter display from the driver in the PC.

 

That was with Source Number of Channels set up in JRiver, which seemed to cause the problem. I cured it in JRiver by setting up fixed 5.1 and 7.1 zones and using Zoneswitch on based on Channels > 6 in the tag in the recording. I do not think the metadata on the recording ever has a .1. So, a 5.1 recording has a tag value of 6 in the Channels field. But, most SACDs are 5 channel in any case.

 

As far as I can tell, stereo, 3.0, 4.0, 5.0, 5.1 recordings etc. all play correctly in my 5.1 zone, and they do not add additional synthetic channels. I do not want extra synthetic channels. A stereo recording, for example, plays as stereo 2.1 with bass management to LFE, which I have also set up in JRiver. Other recordings all seem fine also. This is similar to Kal's experience, except that I can also play automatically in 7.1 from BDs that have that many channels via Zoneswitch.

 

This may not explain the problem with this particular Quad remaster, which might have something different going on.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

All my ISO & DSF Files were ripped via a Oppo 105 The only ones with Issues are the 5.0. All the 2.0 & 5.1 Are fine

I think Kal and Ted_b have pretty well proven that it is not the rip. There is no evidence that this new method creates anything different from a PS3 rip.

 

So, your issue seems to be a JRiver playback parameter issue, not something that should occupy this thread. My suggestion is that you take this issue completely to the JRiver Forum, where you have also posted. Please provide the details of your playback parameter and system setup, as I requested you do there. Here, it is off topic and a distraction.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Nah. I have ripped about 1800 so far and I am not nearly half-way through. I plan to live long enough to finish.

Kal - you are sucking wind from my own project. We are way ahead of you.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

I know but I must still have some standing with others, I hope.

You sure do with me.

 

About to to order an Oppo 103, BTW, specifically for ripping only after two crashed PS3s costing me about $600 total. I have one working PS3 left. I expect an Oppo will last quite a few years. No offense to Pioneer guys, and I know they are cheaper and will do the job. But, there are Ford guys and there are Chevvy guys. I have been an Oppo guy for over 10 years, and I have huge respect for the company.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

So from your 10 years experience what do you think about the reliability of OPPO players and the after sales support (including out-of-warranty repair) ? I'm currently debating whether I should return my Pioneer BDP-80FD for another one, or just buy an OPPO 103. Like you, I'll be using the player for ripping SACD only. Not sure it justifies the extra cost.

Oppo reliability and support have been top notch. I think many so called high end companies are second rate by comparison.

 

The Oppo warranty is 2 years, the Pioneer just 1, I believe. But, agreed, Oppo might not be worth the added cost. I just have zero experience with Pioneer.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Carl, I'm lucky enough that my solitary PS3 has been holding up for the entire backlog of SACDs that I own and is now used only for the few new ones that I get monthly. Btw, I got it from the guy recommended on this forum a while back.

 

But, like you, I'm considering moving to a new Oppo model from BDP-93. Just to catch up on the latest: does Oppo BDP-105D function as a multichannel asynchronous USB DAC with its newest firmware? I recall that our excitement was limited by its stereo-only performance.

 

Max - AFAIK, the Oppo 105 and D are still restricted to stereo only via USB. Mch is only via HDMI.

 

Sonically from other threads, Kal likes the Exasound E28 DAC and the Merging NADAC better than the 105D. But, all 3 use ESS DAC chips. The 105D is good for the money, though, it appears. Except for a small handful of DACS, there is nothing yet that does Mch via USB that I am aware of.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

I'm holding out for a high-quality standalone multichannel DAC that has every possible input (USB, ethernet, HDMI, optical, coax, AES/EBU), handles both PCM and DSD natively at all conceivable resolutions (PCM up to 32-bit float 384kHz, DSD up to 256fs), and includes every relevant decoder (HDCD, DTS, Dolby, etc.). I can't be the only one who would find this a useful centerpiece for a hifi multichannel A/V system.

 

You might be holding out for a very long time. Unlike Kal, I do not see the point of incorporating all those input options in one unit, although it might be useful for him for equipment review purposes. To me, engineering all of them to a high quality level in hardware and software would unnecessarily increase the cost of the DAC.

 

He and I are pretty much there already with the Exasound E28, which we both use via USB with superb results. He has also gotten great sound from the Merging NADAC via Ethernet. Both DACs are 32-bit with support for up to PCM 384 and DSD 256 in Mch. He might want it, but I see no need for HDMI in addition to the multiple stereo input types both DACs now support.

 

I have moved up from HDMI for audio with absolutely no regrets. I do not think it is the equal of asynch USB or Ethernet in terms of potential sonics, based on the jitter susceptibility of its clocking scheme. Ditto for the other input types you mentioned. I believe that asynchronous transmission via USB or Ethernet is inherently superior. I still use HDMI but for video only.

 

My E28 is, in fact, already the center piece of my AV system via direct USB feed from my PC. With appropriate PC software (JRiver and Dirac), I have never been happier with my sound or video, including TV via an Ethernet cable card tuner. I now have no prepro and no cable box in my system. There is also no separate disc player. CD, DVD and BD discs are playable via optical drives in the PC. SACDs are playable, but they must first be ripped to my NAS, which is no big deal to me. I would be ripping them sooner or later anyway. There is really nothing else I need or want after two years of enjoying this setup.

 

Sorry for the digression. I welcome this new SACD ripping scheme with open arms, and I look forward to no more PS3 hassles.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

AFAIK dsf can contain tags, but cannot contain compressed data (DST), whereas dff cannot contain tags but can contain compressed data. IMHO it is best to first convert to dsf to do all your tagging then convert the dsf to DST to compress to a much smaller size.

BUT...

...always keep the iso safely backed up somewhere.

 

I see your points. With the size of my library well into the thousands of discs, I did not want to introduce a third processing step - DSF to DST conversion - into my ripping and extraction process. Plus, hard disc space on a NAS is cheap enough that I saw no need for compression. So, DSF is what I store for library playback.

 

Yes, I save my ISOs with backup. But, I think it is even more important to have rigorous backup for the tagged files, the DSFs in my case. There is one hell of a lot of effort that goes into complete and proper tagging. I would hate to ever lose that and have to revert to the not fully tagged ISOs.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Indeed.

 

Try ripping the RBCD layer and see how your tags look afterward.

 

Not sure I see your point.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Thanks to all who have made this possible. New OPPO 103, powered and only connected to my network via WiFi worked perfectly - after confirming it as instructed on my TV. I am using a homemade Win 10 PC. Process took about 15 minutes for each Archive. Beautifully easy even for this barely, moderately knowledgable computer guy.

 

What is the view on letting the OPPO continue to allow automatic firmware updates? Mine already did one FW update after it was connected to my network for 10 minutes.

 

On auto firmware updates, it depends. If you are using the machine for only rips and SACD/CD playback, I would turn auto updates off. If you are also using the machine for BD playback, you might need firmware updates for some new discs. But, if Oppo kills SACD ripping in the new firmware, you would be stuck, probably with no ability to roll the firmware back.

 

I just looked at the current standard and beta firmware descriptions on their site for the Oppo 103. There is nothing pertaining to SACD as yet. But, I will not be doing firmware updates to be safe.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Auto-updates aren't an option. You are correct that the automatic option is only about whether or not the machine automatically notifies you if an update is available; you still have to manually choose to apply the update.

 

I am hazy on the details, but does an Oppo with auto updates turned on inform you of a new beta, which could be rolled back, or only of a new standard release, which usually cannot be rolled back? If it is the latter, it would be unwise to proceed without first doing some careful research.

 

In any case, I plan zero updates, beta or standard, once I get my new 103 and start ripping. So, auto updates will be turned off for me. My machine will be used for SACD ripping only. In the past, most updates have pertained to BD playback.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Indeed. An HDMI port is my prime prerequisite for a new player, because of my focus on multi-channel audio.

 

 

I am a huge fan of Mch audio. I listen to little else.

 

I have committed to a PC centric HT/Music system. Initially, I used a Mch HT prepro via HDMI output from the PC for both audio and video. I could still use my Oppo 93 universal player with the prepro. But, I have shifted to a PC-Mch DAC solution, with all control, DSP, etc. in the PC. The only players in my system are the internal optical drives in the PC for CD, DVD and BD. The BD drive cost $50 to add, and it works every bit as well as the Oppo did. Ditto for the other internal drives. The prepro, the external player, my cable box are all gone or not used during playback.

 

There is no good way to transmit signal from an external player to a PC for direct playback. So, I can no longer use the Oppo in my system, and SACD discs can no longer be played directly. No problem, though. I just rip them to my NAS first via a new Oppo 103, after formerly using PS3s.

 

I realize that Mch DACs for my setup are scarce and expensive. But, I have found this very satisfying and the sound a considerable step up. HDMI output from the PC is used only for video in my setup directly to my hi def TV.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Multiple discs will just add a number to the end. For example Roger Waters In The Flesh shows that title for disc one, but for disc two adds (1) to the end of the title. Nothing is overwritten on multiple disc sets.

 

Agreed. That is what Windows does, but I find the result confusing. Especially when you have ripped as many operas and other classical multidisc sets as I have.

 

So, I manually append a "- 1", " - 2", etc. to the file name for both the ISO and the DSF, replacing the Windows (1), (2), etc. notation, as well as providing an indication on the first file that it is part of a multidisc set.

 

Windows would label the discs as:

 

file, file (1), file (2), etc.

 

I relabel them as:

 

file - 1, file - 2, file - 3, etc.

 

I do that to both the ISO file and the DSF extract folder names.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

This is what interests me the most. If I bother to rip all of my SACDs will I really gain that much by streaming to a superior DAC? I'd like to think so, however, my Oppo 95 was rated Stererophile Class A, and so was my Ayre QB9-DSD.

 

Maybe my best option is to do nothing and continue listening to my SACD collection via my Oppo 95. The only thing I loose operationally is the ability to play individual tracks from the MacMini in sequence from other music via playlist.

 

Is ripping SACDs more for convenience of playing on a music server? Or is sound quality by having the ability to play on a superior DAC the goal?

 

It is both. Playback of rips from a computer HD vs. the silver disc long ago convinced me that the computer rips sounded slightly but noticeably better than the CD or SACD silver discs via the same DAC and system. I am not saying day/night, however.

 

And, unless you like getting up from your chair a lot, sitting back with your iPad controlling your selections from a tagged library is not only cool, it enables a lot of capabilities, like multi-album playlists, for example. I actually do not use playlists, but I still enjoy being able to browse and select from the comfort of my easy chair even while listening to the last selection.

 

That all takes work up front, like comprehensive tagging of the library. Roon does not do it competently with the classical music I prefer on SACD. But, the results of the manual tagging effort in JRiver suit my lazy ass just fine when I want to enjoy a pleasant and stimulating evening of listening to the music I want to hear.

 

My library is getting huge and huger, even. I cannot even imagine locating and pulling the discs off the shelf one at a time anymore, like I did for so many years with LPs or CDs. Hey, it is the 21st Century. I am not complaining, though. I love it.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Yes, but you will still need a Blu-ray optical drive, which I do not have. I was hoping there was some way to rip the Blu-ray audio from the Oppo.

 

Nope.

 

An internal BD drive in a PC tower is under $50. MakeMKV is free. And, there is player software that will play the MKVs. But, they are not chapterized and there is no menu for individual "tracks" in any PC player software of note.

 

The only solution to that I have found for BD in hi rez is Audiomuxer, also free, which can convert hi rez to FLAC, chapter by chapter = track by track. Most any player software will then handle the FLAC as individual tracks.

 

DVD Audio Extractor was of no use for the hi rez soundtrack on BDs, the last time I looked.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Has anyone with an Oppo or pioneer been able to successfully rip the following:

 

Chuck Mangione - Everything For Love (Chesky)

Sam Cooke - Portrait of a Legend 1951-1964

 

 

I have the Sam Cooke ripped to ISO, but it does not successfully extract to DSF. The rip was done awhile ago via PS3. I have not tried playing the ISO directly. I just put the rip aside for now.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

1. DSD to PCM Mode: The main difference among the three modes (aside from CPU load while processing) is whether or not the conversion process applies no high-frequency filter (multistage), a 30kHz filter (direct), or a customizable one (FIR). Since SACD/DSD uses very aggressive noise-shaping, IMHO it's a good idea to filter out the often-high levels of ultrasonic noise in DSD files. So I would use the direct mode with the 30kHz low-pass filter. In that scenario, the filter has plenty of room - 10kHz - between the top of the audible spectrum and the cutoff frequency. That's more than enough room for the filter to work without producing audible effects in the audible spectrum.

 

2. Sample Rate: IMHO there are basically three options:

 

1. 88.2kHz. This offers plenty of ultrasonic padding (going up to 44.1kHz frequencies) to present the full audible range of sound from the DSD source, plus more than enough room for ultrasonic filtering. It offers the smallest file size available to preserve the high-res benefits of the original DSD source.

 

2. 176.4kHz. This arguably is the smallest sample rate that captures the full resolution of DSD. DSD is roughly - I emphasize roughly - equal in resolution to a 24bit/96kHz PCM source, or according to some, to a 20bit/120kHz PCM source. So given that DSD-PCM conversions should be done using an even divisor of SACD's native sample rate (which also is an even multiple of 44.1kHz), 176.4 does the trick.

 

3. Something much higher. If you know the native internal sample rate of your DAC (some are 352.8, e.g. double 176.4), the DSD-PCM conversation software might be able to match it. If so, some folks say you should do that so that the DAC doesn't have to do any internal conversion.

 

Personally, my choice is option 1: 88.2kHz is close enough for me, doesn't waste space, and in my experience sounds totally indistinguishable from 176.kHz.

 

Also, for 352.8 or higher sample rates, I think those are a huge waste of space - and their advantage becomes useless of you get a new DAC that has a different internal native sample rate.

 

A very good analysis. Personally, I store my library in DSF from the rips, which is fully tagged, then I play via JRiver using 176k on the fly conversion, mostly in 5.1 channels. No problems with that on an Intel I7 that is a few years old. CPU consumption is low. The PCM conversion is to enable Dirac Live EQ, bass management, speaker distance correction, etc. I prefer using those to pure DSD playback, which I am able to do with my DAC.

 

I agree, there is not much noticeable difference in conversion to PCM176k vs. 88k.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

You can rip to ISO, than convert to DSF, all, in about 5 minutes.

 

Depends. I rip to ISO and extract to DSF in 5.0/.1 mainly for classical albums, some of which contain over 70 minutes of music. The rip to ISO itself can take the better part of 30 minutes, about the same as PS3, though I have not put a stopwatch in it. Extract to DSF can add another 10-15 minutes.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

And I still think that, all things being equal, it's better to use a PCM sample rate that's an even multiple of DSD's original 2.822MHz rate.

 

I agree. It cannot possibly hurt, unless you believe somehow that 96k sounds much better than 88k, or the same for 192k vs. 176k. I sure do not.

 

From some comparison experiments with a friend using JRiver on the fly conversion, we did discover that the even multiples of 44k (88, 176) used a fair bit less computer resources than 48k multiples (96,192) for conversion from DSD. JRiver's newer SoX conversion did improve PC resource usage to the point where the issue is likely moot, except maybe on a really underpowered CPU. Still, I use 176k for my day to day sampling rate with a hefty Intel I7 CPU for DSD conversion, on the fly feeding Dirac Live and my Exasound DAC. I have no complaints whatsoever about the sound.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

1 hour ago, CatManDo said:

I have now ripped over 1000 SACDs with my Pioneer 170, and a few with my Oppo 103D and I can sum up my long term experience.

 

Things went very smooth. I only failed to rip one SACD which has a scratch parallel to the data direction (with both players, the SACD extraction process just hangs at the same percentage), and the Pioneer failed to read the SACD layer of one hybrid disc (but it worked with the Oppo).

 

I keep my rips as ISO discs. I'm not scanning booklets (way too much work), but maybe I'll start downloading the booklets and back inlays for the many BIS and Chandos discs I have, which are freely available on the label website.

 

A huge disappointment comes from the spectogram analysis that I made for most of the discs (load the ISO into Foobar2000, select one representative track, convert it to 24/88 FLAC, load the file into Sonic Visualiser, add a spectrogram layer, check for a frequency cut-off). So many classical SACDs are sourced from 44kHz or 48kHz recordings. This has been publicly known for BIS, but it's also the case of many small european labels, such as MDG, CPO, Harmonia Mundi, Arts, Naxos, Capriccio and others. It's odd that labels releasing SACDs are recording at 24/44 or 24/48. It seems that their focus is on multichannel sound and less on high resolution. 

Wouldn't conversion to 88k PCM automatically limit resulting frequency response to 44k = 1/2 the sampling rate per the Nyquist Theorem? But, even so, how many recordists, even in hi rez, use mikes with response much above 20k?  That might be the source of the frequency response limits you see.

 

Yes, many SACDs from even just a few years ago were natively recorded in PCM.  BIS notably shifted to 96k several years ago.  I always liked BIS and never had an issue with sound quality, but I think their newer 96k recordings do sound better.  I think other labels have also likely increased their PCM sampling rates or even to DSD 128 or 256.

 

But, I am less concerned about DSD vs. PCM or ultra sampling rates than I am about musical content and basic engineering/mastering quality.  And, I do not think Mch has caused a problem.  It is an important part of why the hi rez classical music recording niche survives at all on SACD. Mch also makes up over 95% of my listening.

 

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

5 minutes ago, pl_svn said:

I was very excited when I first found this thread and started looking for a Pioneer BDP-170 (which took me three months hunting to find)

Thankfully I never bothered about SACDs before so I carefully started looking and buying a few to see what all the fuzz was about

 

Re-purchased in SACD a couple of Reneé Jacobs, by Harmonia Mundi, I already had as 24-96 from Qobuz and... found 24-96 PCM was used for recording (veeeery tiny final note in a 100 pages booklet)  :-/

Bought, then, another couple SACDs from BIS and... seen only afterwards they too record as 24-96 PCM :-|

 

So far only *native* DSD stuff (I might care aboiut  )I found is from LSO and Gergiev/Mariinsky orchestra

Channel Classics is probably the biggest current source.  If you can still find them, old Telarcs were DSD.  Not sure who else is consistently DSD.  My understanding is that some Harmonia Mundis are DSD, some PCM.  To me, it's all no big deal.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

2 minutes ago, CatManDo said:

 

Yes, but I was looking for a frequency cut-off of 22kHz or 24kHz, to detect 44kHz or 48kHz recordings.

 

There may be frequency limitations of the other equipment (microphones, mixing consoles), but this results in a smoothly rolled-off frequency response, while the cut-off due to a sample rate of 44 or 48kHz is clearly visible as a sharp line on the spectrogram.

Surprised.  I know older BIS briefly used then dropped DSD and used 44k/24 for a number of years, but I was unaware of others at 44 or 48, at least no one as significant as BIS.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

4 hours ago, JediJoker said:

 

You'd be hard pressed to find a professional studio that can't do high track counts in 24/96.

I have no doubt that is true today, and some professionals routinely use ultra resolutions of either PCM or DSD for recording and mastering of SACD.  Actually, higher resolutions are now more routinely used for recordings destined for CD, as well.  But, even as few as 5 years ago, 44 or 48k were more prevalent than today for recording and mastering.  And, many of those slightly older SACDs are still for sale.  

[Fitzcaraldo215]

1 hour ago, fred sonnen said:

Hallo

 

I am new to this forum.

Thanks to this forum (!) I bought many moon's ago a Pioneer BDP160 to rip SACD.

 

Today I got my first Blu-ray Audio Disc full of 24 bit / 96 kHz audio files. These I would like to have on my Audio Server.... Is this possible? if yes how?

 

The Pioneer is located within my Network. Ping works.Telnet does'nt ;-(

I just pluged the SACD rip USB-stick at the Pioneer. But that does'nt help...

 

Greetings

F.S.

As @CatManDo says, this thread us about ripping SACD discs via Oppo, Pioneer,etc. players.

 

Those players will not be capable of ripping BDs to a PC, because there are no available methods for circumventing the HDCP DRM in HDMI.

 

To rip BDs, a PC BD drive (these are cheap) is necessary together with decrypting and ripping software.  I recommend MakeMKV, which is free for a lengthy trial, then costs $50 for a perpetual license if you wish to keep it.