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Cable burn-in


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You've gone and woken up the scientists again. I'm not a big cable fan - I frankly don't have much time for the silly money people pay for any audio products, whether it's 10's of $'000's for speakers, amps, or even DAC's - or $000's for cables. It's all completely nuts, as far as I'm concerned. Equally, the hours and hours the tweakers and fiddlers spend doing things such as playing with Isotope settings, or converting their files to DSD. Bonkers. Oh, I'm sure the scientists can point to theoretical differences and 'improvements', as measured on test equipment. I generally find that scientists are idiots, like that. My approach is to unclench my buttocks and relax, and let my ears determine if what I am listening to sounds more pleasing, or not. In my opinion and experience (a) yes, cables do make a significant difference in sound quality, up to a point and (b) for whatever reason, they take a while before they open up and sound their best.

Tidal / Qobuz--> Roon--> Fios Gigabit--> Netgear Prosafe GS105 --> Supra 8-->EtherRegen --> Fiber--> opticalRendu / CI Audio LPS --> Curious Evolved Link --> Chord Qutest--> AQ Water --> Belles Aria Integrated--> AQ Robin Hood--> Kudos Super 20's

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It is unlikely that any 'treatment' will make a measurable change that is detectable above the noise floor of most home audio systems.

 

Belief that something like this works falls in the category of unfalsifiable claims that operate as a 'Math Tax' on the overly credulous.

 

It bears mentioning that a good value for money can be found through Blue Jeans cable which eschews the sort of prattle accompanying mega buck cables.

 

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/178/Unfalsifiability

 

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

As I stated originally, I am often able to hear differences between cables, even on one occasion between 2 similar length Coax SPDIF cables,but I have yet to notice a burn in effect with a cable. Perhaps I am simply unable to afford the asking price of such exotic cables ?

Even cleaning the RCA sockets and plugs etc. occasionally may make a very worthwhile improvement.

Yes, I agree with your comments about Blue Jeans cables as I purchased a couple of pairs of their LC1 cables several years ago.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Hi there.

 

Are any of you capable people able to explain to me the science behind cable burn-in?

 

I can hear the difference between different cables, however I don't remember a cable of mine ever changing its nature over time, be it a cheap cable or any of my more expensive cables.

 

Perhaps the impedance changes?

 

TIA

mac_and_dac

 

 

Nothing changes because cables are passive and there is no such thing as cable "burn-in" or "run-in" or any other kind of change-over-use phenomenon that some people swear occurs. There is no dielectric that has to be formed. While cables do have capacitance, the dielectric is formed at manufacture, and even if it did need to "form" over use, the difference between something like 0.3 pF/ft and 0.1 pF/ft over time in a 1 meter interconnect (or a 10 meter interconnect, for that matter) is simply not going to be audible to anyone because it would result in a change of only a fraction of a dB at the absolute highest frequencies. But again, since it doesn't change at all, it's nothing to be concerned about.

 

And answer this. Since humans have notoriously poor aural memory for sound quality differences, how would you know that cables have changed over some "burn-in" period? One certainly can't remember what the cables sounded like out of the box after even days, much less weeks of listening. How do you tell; do you buy two of the same cable pair and keep one in it's box while you burn in the other and then compare them after some interval? The entire notion is laughable. Maybe we shouldn't fly on brand new airliners until the fly-by-wire cables have had a chance to "burn-in". Lack of burn-in might cause the plane to make a wrong move and crash! :)

George

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George - you are unfortunately locked into being logical and rational, you poor guy. After all, this is audio we are talking about, and absolutely everything makes a difference, even heaps of stuff not yet discovered via scientific methods. Your emotional reaction to the same recording days or weeks later tells you everything you need to know. Bigger goosebumps mean the cable has now broken in, as we all know. Stop trying to make sense.

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Dielectric Constant

The dielectric constant of Teflon® PTFE resins shows less change over a wide range of temperatures and frequencies than any other solid material. This value remains essentially constant at 2.1 over the entire frequency spectrum.

Teflon® PTFE specimens have been heat-aged at 300°C(572°F) for six months, and then cooled to room temperature for measurement, with no change in dielectric constant. Non fluoropolymer insulating materials do not show these properties.

http://www.rjchase.com/ptfe_handbook.pdf

 


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George - you are unfortunately locked into being logical and rational, you poor guy. After all, this is audio we are talking about, and absolutely everything makes a difference, even heaps of stuff not yet discovered via scientific methods. Your emotional reaction to the same recording days or weeks later tells you everything you need to know. Bigger goosebumps mean the cable has now broken in, as we all know. Stop trying to make sense.

 

 

Ok, I'm sorry. You're right, Fitzy. I will endeavor to stop trying to make sense, So, for you burn-in guys, never get into a car or an airplane where the cabling has not been adequately burned-in, you could get killed, and we don't want that! The audiophile community is small enough these days without losing any of you. If you get killed-off, who are companies like Nordost, MIT, Shunyata Research, etc. going to sell their products to?

George

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So, for you burn-in guys, never get into a car or an airplane where the cabling has not been adequately burned-in, you could get killed, and we don't want that!

 

George

Why do you guys need to keep piling on the BS about planes falling out of the sky etc. whenever people report differences that don't completely agree with your own current theoretical knowledge ?

 

Talk about Drama Queens !!!

 

Alex

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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George

Why do you guys need to keep piling on the BS about planes falling out of the sky etc. whenever people report differences that don't completely agree with your own current theoretical knowledge ?

 

Talk about Drama Queens !!!

 

Alex

 

It's simple. There is nothing special about an audio waveform just because it represents music. Musical waveforms are subject to the same laws of physics as are drive-by-wire signals, MRI signals, and every other AC signal on earth. If wire changes characteristics over time enough to be actually perceived by the listener, then other AC signals must be changed in a perceptible manner as well. Do you deny that? Maybe my sarcastic way of saying that is a bit heavy handed, and if so, I apologize. It was meant only to show that the world of physics follows rules, not to offend anyone.

George

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It was meant only to show that the world of physics follows rules,

 

Those "rules" aren't always very clearly defined due to gaps in our present knowledge , and in many cases are more like guidelines.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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...I frankly don't have much time for the silly money people pay for any audio products, whether it's 10's of $'000's for speakers, amps, or even DAC's - or $000's for cables.

 

I don't have silly money, I'm a poor audiophile. I buy entry-level cables with thick enough gauge to reproduce bass well with good impact, good connectors, and insulating materials, in the length I need.

 

...In my opinion and experience (a) yes, cables do make a significant difference in sound quality, up to a point and (b) for whatever reason, they take a while before they open up and sound their best.

 

I don't understand our resident objectivists objections to cable burn-in. If I understand burn-in correctly, one plays music through their system for a couple of weeks while they burn-in. In other words cable burn-in costs ZERO dollars and one can listen to music while the cable is burning in.

 

I'm not even sure if it is the cable or the listener being burned-in. However, whither one is listening to music as the cable burns in or one is listening to music while the cable doesn't burn-in, the important thing I believe is to enjoy the music.

I have dementia. I save all my posts in a text file I call Forums.  I do a search in that file to find out what I said or did in the past.

 

I still love music.

 

Teresa

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Those "rules" aren't always very clearly defined due to gaps in our present knowledge , and in many cases are more like guidelines.

 

It takes machines like the LHC to expose the remaining gaps in our knowledge. Does your audio system include a particle collider?

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I'm not even sure if it is the cable or the listener being burned-in. However, whither one is listening to music as the cable burns in or one is listening to music while the cable doesn't burn-in, the important thing I believe is to enjoy the music.

 

Teresa

We are undoubtedly listening more intently after a new purchased addition, and this may also help explain perceived improvements.

The burn-in process does however actually happen with the large value electrolytic capacitors in the PSU area, and this is well documented.Depending on the make and type of capacitor, the process can take several days, or even quite a few weeks with some types. Some electrolytic capacitors such as Elna for Audio capacitors are notorious for the time they take to fully stabilise.

 

Kind Regards

Alex

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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It takes machines like the LHC to expose the remaining gaps in our knowledge. Does your audio system include a particle collider?

 

No, but Alfe was able to expose gaps in yours without using a particle collider ! (smile)

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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I don't have silly money, I'm a poor audiophile. I buy entry-level cables with thick enough gauge to reproduce bass well with good impact, good connectors, and insulating materials, in the length I need.

 

 

 

I don't understand our resident objectivists objections to cable burn-in. If I understand burn-in correctly, one plays music through their system for a couple of weeks while they burn-in. In other words cable burn-in costs ZERO dollars and one can listen to music while the cable is burning in.

 

I'm not even sure if it is the cable or the listener being burned-in. However, whither one is listening to music as the cable burns in or one is listening to music while the cable doesn't burn-in, the important thing I believe is to enjoy the music.

The objection raised is that unlike transducers or well built electronics, these undetectable phenomena are used to justify expensive runs of cable make no meaningful change in performance.

 

See : Gold plated 20" rims on a Mazda 3

 

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

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The objection raised is that unlike transducers or well built electronics, these undetectable phenomena are used to justify expensive runs of cable make no meaningful change in performance...

 

I don't understand? How can burn-in justify the price of anything, including cables? Even cheap cables are supposed to benefit from burn-in.

 

If I get a 30-day satisfaction guarantee and return what I don't like or what didn't improve the sound of my music I still get 100% of my money back. Doesn't matter if it's a $20 cable or a $100+ cable.

 

I would like to know how burning-in cables would justify high prices? FYI I can't afford expensive cables but I burned-in my basic cables by playing music. I cost me ZERO to burn-in everything I own and I enjoyed listening to music while either it or I was burning-in.

 

The point I am trying to make is burn-in cost nothing whatsoever. And if you like listening to music, burning-in is as simple as listening to music.

I have dementia. I save all my posts in a text file I call Forums.  I do a search in that file to find out what I said or did in the past.

 

I still love music.

 

Teresa

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I don't understand? How can burn-in justify the price of anything, including cables? Even cheap cables are supposed to benefit from burn-in.

 

If one gets a 30-day satisfaction guarantee and returns what one doesn't like or what didn't improve the sound of one's music one still gets 100% of their money back. Doesn't matter if it's a $20 cable or a $100+ cable.

 

I would like to know how burning-in cables would justify high prices? FYI I can't afford expensive cables but I burned-in my entry level cables by playing music. I cost me ZERO to burn-in everything I own and I enjoyed listening to music while either it or I was burning-in.

 

The point I am trying to make is burn-in cost nothing whatsoever. And if you like listening to music, burning-in is as simple as listening to music.

It's a marketing ploy based on tenuous science. The ONLY papers suggesting the effect is genuine have been published by the makers of such products themselves.

 

See : unfalsifiable claims

 

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

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It's a marketing ploy based on tenuous science. The ONLY papers suggesting the effect is genuine have been published by the makers of such products themselves.

 

It seems quite possible that the only people who would be interested in writing papers about cable burn-in would be cable makers. They don't do science, they are engineers making products to sell to people. I buy HiFi equipment to listen to music from such companies, and I'm always interested in a bit of background reading. But ultimately my hobby is about listening to music, in no way is it some kind of ongoing 'science experiment' as practiced by some.

 

I thought the Cardas link was very interesting, talking about static electricity in the dialectric layers of the cable. I'm sure if you wanted to go all scientific it should be possible to measure this static electricity, although maybe it wouldn't be possible without taking the cables apart.

System (i): Stack Audio Link > 2Qute+MCRU psu; Gyrodec/SME V/Hana SL/EAT E-Glo Petit/Magnum Dynalab FT101A) > PrimaLuna Evo 100 amp > Klipsch RP-600M/REL T5x subs

System (ii): Allo USB Signature > Bel Canto uLink+AQVOX psu > Chord Hugo > APPJ EL34 > Tandy LX5/REL Tzero v3 subs

System (iii) KEF LS50W/KEF R400b subs

 

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It seems quite possible that the only people who would be interested in writing papers about cable burn-in would be cable makers. They don't do science, they are engineers making products to sell to people.

 

All to many are nothing but marketing spin doctors selling snake oil.

 

Actual scientists and engineers consider cables for low-frequency signals a solved problem. The research for this was done 100 years ago.

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It seems quite possible that the only people who would be interested in writing papers about cable burn-in would be cable makers. They don't do science, they are engineers making products to sell to people. I buy HiFi equipment to listen to music from such companies, and I'm always interested in a bit of background reading. But ultimately my hobby is about listening to music, in no way is it some kind of ongoing 'science experiment' as practiced by some.

 

I thought the Cardas link was very interesting, talking about static electricity in the dialectric layers of the cable. I'm sure if you wanted to go all scientific it should be possible to measure this static electricity, although maybe it wouldn't be possible without taking the cables apart.

There's no quantification on if this effect is buried below the noise floor at operating temperature or if it smears transients in the time domain either.

 

Measurable static discharge?

Perhaps

 

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

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