Verification of JRiver to foo_asio for DSD conversion

[ted_b]

Ted, this thread is about foo_dsd_asio. The whole thread does not have sense otherwise. foo_out_asio you mentioned cannot do any PCM o DSD conversion and cannot be used outside of Foobar2000, but foo_dsd_asio can. So my contribution has sense in this thread.

 

Eurodriver, I and maybe Geoff too wrote here in more posts in the last years about the possibility to set foo_dsd_asio as ASIO output device in different programs (JRiver is only one example). BlueRCF is referring these posts. foo_dsd_asio proxy device is able o perform PCM to DSD conversion and then send the conversion output to configured "real" ASIO device.

 

Thanks, yes it became obvious that he meant foo_dsd_asio when I posted the question to you and you differentiated them in a previous post. It was why I was confused about the subject of the whole thread. But...I am still confused how foo_dsd_asio would allow Tidal to see JRiver and play Tidal streamed music upsampled to DSD (like I can do with JRIver's WDM capability). Are you saying Tidal (the OP's question, or any other 3rd party) can use foo_dsd_asio and it would route to JRiver as a sound output?

[mm67]

Thanks, yes it became obvious that he meant foo_dsd_asio when I posted the question to you and you differentiated them in a previous post. It was why I was confused about the subject of the whole thread. But...I am still confused how foo_dsd_asio would allow Tidal to see JRiver and play Tidal streamed music upsampled to DSD (like I can do with JRIver's WDM capability). Are you saying Tidal (the OP's question, or any other 3rd party) can use foo_dsd_asio and it would route to JRiver as a sound output?

 

i use JRiver as Upnp streamer by enabling DLNA server. After that you can stream Tidal to it just like this : How to stream TIDAL to the Raspberry Pi

[bogi]

But...I am still confused how foo_dsd_asio would allow Tidal to see JRiver and play Tidal streamed music upsampled to DSD (like I can do with JRIver's WDM capability). Are you saying Tidal (the OP's question, or any other 3rd party) can use foo_dsd_asio and it would route to JRiver as a sound output?

 

I don't use streaming, so I can answer only very generally.

foo_dsd_asio can be used in every application which allows to choose ASIO output device.

It is very similar like when you are using JRiver's virtual ASIO device to use JRiver's engine from other ASIO capable application. It's in principle the same thing. Both are ASIO proxies - they send output to some other ASIO device (typically to ASIO driver of your DAC), but they can internally perform some DSP or PCM<-->DSD format conversion. foo_dsd_asio is more restricted in functionality in comparison with Jriver's ASIO proxy.

Sorry I cannot answer more specifically about streaming.

[mlgrado]

Yes, you stole my next question, as that is why I asked about foo_DSD_Asio...rethinking maybe it was a lighter plugin. Nice. Thanks.

 

Yes, I have no idea what OP is asking, as foo_Asio seems to be a weird choice for wanting to do DSD in JRIver. But he seems so doggedly determined for no one to question him that I gave up after mentioning WDM and seeing his responses to others.

 

 

NOT a weird choice.

 

ASIO PROXY (foo DSD plugin) is so much more advanced than anything JRiver can do. Multiple choices of modulators, choice of DoP or Native based on sample rate. Upconversion of PCM to every DSD rate up the DSD512. ALSO upsampling or downsampling of DSD without decimation to PCM to any other DSD rate!!!!!!!

 

And EVEN MORE IMPORTANT is the quality of the conversion. Go over to DIYHIFI.ORG which is an industry back room that several top brand, well known audio designers hang out and bitch about things. You will find a test of JRiver's DSD conversion. It sucks. Linear Phase Oversampling filter with tons of ringing. ASIO PROXY is SIGNIFICANTLY better. Oh, and speaking of Oversampling, something else you can do with ASIO PROXY is select the oversampling rate before delta sigma conversion. Or not have any at all before the modulator. SAMPLE and HOLD from NONE all the way to 8X.

 

EXTREMELY excellent option for DSD playback via JRiver. It is the BEST option this side of HQPlayer.

 

 

Now, back to what the OP is asking. JRIVER is not going to tell you what ASIO PROXY is doing. As far a JRIVER is concerned, it is outputting a bitperfect signal. The only way I know what is happening is via the iFi control panel. It shows exactly what rate is REALLY going to the iDSD DAC when using ASIO PROXY. For instance, if I am using DSD256 via DOP, it shows 705 khz as the output format. If I do that same via Native, it shows 11 megahertz. You in theory COULD do DSD512 over DoP, but the Dac would need to support 1.4MHZ PCM. But DSD512 in NATIVE ASIO works just fine.

 

The other way to know is if your DAC has indicators.

 

 

SORRY OP... I totally understand your question.

 

I WOULD suggest this, though. If you are using the ASIO PROXY foo_DSD plugin with Jriver, and you have set the parameters, and everything is WORKING, (that is you are getting sound) I would say it is doing exactly what you are asking it to do in the settings.

 

 

ANOTHER NOTE/TIP... the latest version of ASIO PROXY will not output multiples of 48khz as DSD if you use 'DSD' as the output. You MUST use DoP for those sample rates. You can only use 'DSD', which means native ASIO output, for rates that are a multiple of 44.1 khz. Not really a big deal... I just set 44.1, 88.2, 176.4, 352.8 to be converted via DoP at DSD256 rate. (Can't do DSD512 via DoP with the iFi iDSD.) Then for 48, 96, 192 and 384 I use 'DSD' or native. Not that it matters. You could choose all DoP. Probably the audio fool in me that says if I can use native streaming I must. There was A TIME when you could output ALL rates via NATIVE ASIO. But that means some non standard DSD rates... I.E. 64 x 48,000 is 3,072,000 hz. Not all DACS can handle these non standard DSD rates. One solution that ASIO PROXY will NOT use is to convert 48 khz multiples to 44.1 khz multiples THEN modulate. That is probably what JRiver does. That adds and extra step that is a potential drop in fidelity. But, if you want back the convenience factor of using Native ASIO for all PCM rates, (for instance to use DSD512 with all rates) you could turn on the JRIVER internal resampling engine and convert everything to a 44.1 khz multiple there. It would get sent out from Jriver to ASIO Proxy and now you can bypass using DoP. Myself, I would rather just use DoP and be limited to DSD256, than introduce the Jriver resampling engine into the equation. It is the poor quality of that engine that is a major reason for using ASIO PROXY in the first place, right?

[mlgrado]

Hi all,

 

here is PCM to DSD conversion quality comparison by Eurodriver (based on his listening experience) I 100% agree with:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/hq-player-20293/index6.html#post337112

 

After I compared JRiver's conversion and ASIO proxy (foo_dsd_asio) in JRiver environment, from that time I am using only foo_dsd_asio in JRiver.

 

So YES, ASIO proxy foo_dsd_asio can be used outside of Foobar2000 environment. It is not part of Foobar2000 and it has separate installation. It creates virtual ASIO output device foo_dsd_asio which can be set for example in JRiver as ASIO output device (instead of ASIO device of your DAC).

 

ASIO proxy device foo_dsd_asio can be configured:

- what to do with incoming digital audio stream (convert PCM o DSD or convert DSD to PCM or upsample DSD)

- which ASIO device should be the processing output sent to (here your DAC ASIO device is set)

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]27698[/ATTACH]

 

Yet one note about Foobar2000: ASIO proxy device foo_dsd_asio is not required to be used in Foobar2000 to be able to listen to DSD (SACD) material. Foobar plugin foo_input_sacd provides that support and that's the thing which is Foobar2000 specific, not the ASIO proxy.

 

ASIO proxy is used to convert (DSD to PCM or PCM to DSD) and to upsample DSD material (DSD to DSD). If a Foobar2000 user doesn't need these conversions while listening to DSD material, then there is no need to use foo_dsd_asio with Foobar2000.

 

ASIO proxy foo_dsd_asio and Foobar plugin foo_input_sacd have the same author Maxim Anisiutkin and they are provided for free. Here you can see the things are provided as separate download: https://sourceforge.net/projects/sacddecoder/files/

 

 

It isn't just confirmed by listening experience. It has been objectively measured as superior. ASIO PROXY has a measurably better PCM oversampling filter compared to JRIVER DSD conversion

[mlgrado]

You'er using foo_dsd-asio in JRiver? And it works at DSD256 via JRIver?

 

BTW, foo_DSD_asio is not foo_asio (OP subject) so not sure what we're discussing here, and what the OP is trying to do with non-Jriver plugins.

 

Not to keep beating a dead horse. But yes, foo_dsd_asio works with JRIVER. Its called ASIO PROXY. Works all the way to DSD512

 

And to answer another question you posed... it isn't restricted to any software. It can be used with any software that has ASIO compatibility. As long as the output is being routed via ASIO, it works. Which would include streaming services.

[PaulJL]

Hello--I want to use Jriver MC 23 together with JPlay. Marcin advised that I install foo_dsd_asio ands I've done that (I'm running version 0.83). I've selected foo_dsd_asio in the audio options panel in JRMC. Where I'm getting stuck is that Marcin told me I have to set foo_dsd_asio for Jplay but I don't see a way to do that in JRMC. And I see no foo_dsd_asio app that allows me to make that  selection. I would appreciate your help here.

 

Thanks. 

[bodiebill]

16 hours ago, PaulJL said:

Hello--I want to use Jriver MC 23 together with JPlay. Marcin advised that I install foo_dsd_asio ands I've done that (I'm running version 0.83). I've selected foo_dsd_asio in the audio options panel in JRMC. Where I'm getting stuck is that Marcin told me I have to set foo_dsd_asio for Jplay but I don't see a way to do that in JRMC. And I see no foo_dsd_asio app that allows me to make that  selection. I would appreciate your help here.

 

Thanks. 

 

In JRiver go to Options - Audio - Device settings (under foo_dsd_asio) - Open Driver Control Panel.

There you should be able to choose JPLAY as foo_dsd_asio's output driver.

[PaulJL]

Thanks. I checked in the control panel for that output choice and I don't see a selection for Jplay. Instead I see JRMC 19, JRMC 23 and DSD Transcoder. I've attached a screen capture. 

[Mogos]

Hi everybody.

I have one question. If foo_dsd_asio is doing a conversion from PCM to DSD than I shall be getting a DSD signal to my Mytek DSD 192 just playing a PCM file without any settings for DSD output method in JRiver. But it dose not work like that. I get only upsampled signal but no DSD. Am I doing something wrong? When I choose as the method output DSD in JRiver than my Mytek shows DSD. But it will mean that JRiver is making a DSD conversion and the foo_dsd_asio only outputs it. What the heck???

[jcn3]

9 hours ago, Mogos said:

Hi everybody.

I have one question. If foo_dsd_asio is doing a conversion from PCM to DSD than I shall be getting a DSD signal to my Mytek DSD 192 just playing a PCM file without any settings for DSD output method in JRiver. But it dose not work like that. I get only upsampled signal but no DSD. Am I doing something wrong? When I choose as the method output DSD in JRiver than my Mytek shows DSD. But it will mean that JRiver is making a DSD conversion and the foo_dsd_asio only outputs it. What the heck???

 

Most likely that what's being sent to the Mytek is DoP, not native DSD.  

 

Check this out to see if your settings are correct in JRiver:  https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD

[Ron Scubadiver]

foo asio proxy is depreciated.  You will probably get better results with fewer complications using foobar with foo_input_sacd and foo_dsd_processor installed plus a WASAPI or ASIO component (whichever you need).   If necessary, the package also comes with an ASIO component which strips DoP markers and outputs native DSD if your DAC does not accept DoP.   The fancy option is to use HQPlayer.

 

[Mogos]

9 hours ago, jcn3 said:

 

Most likely that what's being sent to the Mytek is DoP, not native DSD.  

 

Check this out to see if your settings are correct in JRiver:  https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD

With the settings in JRiver I have no problem.

If I set up JRiver for DSD to play than I am getting dsd or hdsd signal in Mytek. The point is that if foo_dsd_asio is capable to do conversion to DSD than I shall get a DSD signal from JRiver to Mytek without any dsd settings in JRiver. JRiver shall output PCM and foo_dsd_asio do the conversion. The foo_dsd_asio has a table of conversion settings indicating that you will get the DSD signal outputed to the chosen device but it is not working like that.

[Mogos]

Thank you Ron for your help. It looks like that HQPlayer is the only one software dooing the process of conversion from PCM to DSD for real and with very high quality. I have got intrested in foo_dsd_asio looking for the alternative to HQPlayer. But it looks like there is no one or I am still missing something.