Theories About NAS And Connection / NAS - MicroRendu

[davide256]

Maybe the NAS can affect the sound, but I don't think it's certain. It might depend on how the NAS is used. What if the NAS is only acting as a file server - and it's on a different AC circuit than the system - and fiber is isolating the Ethernet? How can powering the NAS with a linear supply be as helpful as in the case where the NAS is on the same AC circuit and copper Ethernet cabling is used and the NAS is actually running UPnP software?

 

I'm quite certain it affects sound. The variables may be a bit murky but I have been through several different scenarios playing to same streamer with audibly different results. From worst to best for what I have tried so far

 

1. Buffalo Linkstation NAS using built in media server software and WD red harddrives- this reminded me of an old Technics turntable used for LP playback, compressed dynamics, life less sound

2. PC as NAS using SSD for Win 10 OS, 1TB hybrid drive for music files, Minimserver for app, no special optimization- decent dynamics but boring for detail resolution, like a coin that's been in circulation where the fine detail is worn, blurry

3. Synology DS214play NAS with WD red harddrives using Minimserver - good dynamics, improved detail, but leading edges are dulled for loud transients and some digital irritants/fatigue factor

4. Synology DS214play NAS with Crucial MX SSD using Minimserver - as above but with reduced digital irritants/fatigue factor

5. PC as NAS using SSD for Win 10 OS, 1TB hybrid drive for music files, Minimserver and Fidelizer 7.3- as above but with greater resolution, using the coin analogy, closer to "uncirculated" level of fine detail

 

As a next experiment, I've renewed my license for Audiophile Optimizer, will be trying a Win10 image with it to see if it can better Fidelizer. IMHO similiar issues that lead to microRendu design exist for NAS...we need a NAS purpose built for audio only. I'm not hopeful that the dulled peak transients is solvable without better hardware.

[pl_svn]

2. Sumsung EVO 850 Pro is the best SSD currently.

 

no! last really good Samsung series were the 840 Pro

after those Samsung (and everyone else) changed from SLC to MLC or TLC NANDs (cheaper but less durable)

 

these days SanDisk Extreme Pro are a good compromise (MLC with a large-ish SLC buffer)

only manufacturer to offer 10 years warranty on MLC

 

3. QNAP fanless is the best (than Synology) : because low noise.

 

you will still hear disk activity though

barely noticeable when I was using 3TB WD reds, more noisy now that I changed to 4TB WD reds

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Guys - Interesting experiences listed here. I just want to provide my experience with NAS units. I have have five NAS units here, a mix of processors and amounts of RAM and HDD/SSD, etc... I've used them in all different configurations imaginable. I've never been able to hear a difference between any of these NAS units in any configurations.

 

I'm far from saying anyone is wrong in this situation. I just wanted to give my experience.

[pl_svn]

tried also powering one from a (decent) LPS?

[The Computer Audiophile]

tried also powering one from a (decent) LPS?

No, I've never tried a linear supply on my NAS units.

[tranz]

tried also powering one from a (decent) LPS?

 

This would be beneficial if the NAS is sharing the same AC drop as your audio gear, due to the noise it spits back into AC.

[The Computer Audiophile]

In my house, my audio equipment has a dedicated subpanel with five dedicated circuits. The NAS units are in another area of the house on a totally different panel and circuit.

[davide256]

no! last really good Samsung series were the 840 Pro

after those Samsung (and everyone else) changed from SLC to MLC or TLC NANDs (cheaper but less durable)

 

these days SanDisk Extreme Pro are a good compromise (MLC with a large-ish SLC buffer)

only manufacturer to offer 10 years warranty on MLC

 

 

 

you will still hear disk activity though

barely noticeable when I was using 3TB WD reds, more noisy now that I changed to 4TB WD reds

 

My fans rarely cut in with DS214play and SSD... less heat generation than HD and better ventilation with the thinner drives

[pl_svn]

In my house, my audio equipment has a dedicated subpanel with five dedicated circuits. The NAS units are in another area of the house on a totally different panel and circuit.

 

then, almost for sure, it wouldn't make any difference

 

I keep, instead, everything music in the same rack (fanless NAS included) and everything is running off of LPSs (switch and media converter included) then optical isolation between the music part and router (plus non music network) is in place

 

running the NAS too off of a LPS didn't make a dramatic difference (as running the Mini and Aries off of a JS-2 did) but still...

[davide256]

No, I've never tried a linear supply on my NAS units.

 

Anyone know if this is actually an LPS power supply? it came with DS214play Synology NAS, has LPS on it and if so might explain why I didn't hear much difference between it and HDPlex for 12v DC to NAS.

 

[Astralark]

Well, I need to say, audio is not a single piece of equipment. The safe words are when your system is sensitive enough, NAS is another point need to pay attention

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[The Computer Audiophile]

Anyone know if this is actually an LPS power supply? it came with DS214play Synology NAS, has LPS on it and if so might explain why I didn't hear much difference between it and HDPlex for 12v DC to NAS.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]27691[/ATTACH]

It's a switching supply.

[Astralark]

LPS can improve but not solve problem. For example, I heard of power supply improvement to the fan of a PC, while robust design change hardware configuration and fan is no longer necessary. NAS is not build for audiophile. This is the problem.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[lmitche]

I'm quite certain it affects sound. The variables may be a bit murky but I have been through several different scenarios playing to same streamer with audibly different results. From worst to best for what I have tried so far

 

1. Buffalo Linkstation NAS using built in media server software and WD red harddrives- this reminded me of an old Technics turntable used for LP playback, compressed dynamics, life less sound

2. PC as NAS using SSD for Win 10 OS, 1TB hybrid drive for music files, Minimserver for app, no special optimization- decent dynamics but boring for detail resolution, like a coin that's been in circulation where the fine detail is worn, blurry

3. Synology DS214play NAS with WD red harddrives using Minimserver - good dynamics, improved detail, but leading edges are dulled for loud transients and some digital irritants/fatigue factor

4. Synology DS214play NAS with Crucial MX SSD using Minimserver - as above but with reduced digital irritants/fatigue factor

5. PC as NAS using SSD for Win 10 OS, 1TB hybrid drive for music files, Minimserver and Fidelizer 7.3- as above but with greater resolution, using the coin analogy, closer to "uncirculated" level of fine detail

 

As a next experiment, I've renewed my license for Audiophile Optimizer, will be trying a Win10 image with it to see if it can better Fidelizer. IMHO similiar issues that lead to microRendu design exist for NAS...we need a NAS purpose built for audio only. I'm not hopeful that the dulled peak transients is solvable without better hardware.

 

The results listed here are consistent with my experience.

 

I find the best sq is achieved using the NAS as a simple file server to a combined Roon and HQplayer upsampling machine. I also use the NAS machine to ISCSI boot the player machine. The NAS machine runs a virtual switch, eliminating the need for a physical ethernet switch. There is native support for a virtual switch in the latest version of the Qnap OS. Powering the NAS with a good LPS makes a difference as well. Lastly an EMOsystems ethernet isolator adds to sq when placed between the two machines.

[Astralark]

no! last really good Samsung series were the 840 Pro

after those Samsung (and everyone else) changed from SLC to MLC or TLC NANDs (cheaper but less durable)

 

these days SanDisk Extreme Pro are a good compromise (MLC with a large-ish SLC buffer)

only manufacturer to offer 10 years warranty on MLC

 

 

 

you will still hear disk activity though

barely noticeable when I was using 3TB WD reds, more noisy now that I changed to 4TB WD reds

 

Glad to know this information about hard drive. So 840 Pro is SLC based and can offer great stability and read/write speed right? Cool

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[feelingears]

The results listed here are consistent with my experience.

 

... Lastly an EMOsystems ethernet isolator adds to sq when placed between the two machines.

 

Thanks to the microRendu, I'm new to the whole computer audio thing as overall it's too distracting from enjoying music. BUT, the effort has been worthwhile:

 

My audio goes from NAS via Wi-Fi to an Airport Express in my living room--See my sig below.

 

In my short dive into computer audio, it seems electrical noise is a major factor in what makes my digital playback(s) sound their best, going from good to "OMG!"

 

So, I recently added an EMO EN-70HD network isolator ($200 on Amazon/eBay) to remove noise from my Ethernet network, thinking I should feed the microRendu a clean signal after the Wi-Fi and Airport Express. I put the EMO between the AExpress and mRendu. Not so great--some things good but overall more blurred and indistinct with loss of high-frequencies. Disappointed, I put it up for sale and then thought I'd just stick it between my NAS and the Airport Extreme until someone hopefully bought it. I didn't expect anything at all, and then went to listen to more music. WOW. WOW. WOW!

 

Not sure why this is the case, but I do recall reading someplace here on CA forums that someone had counter-intuitive results isolating their source rather than their audio "output." It takes too much binge reading on these forums to discover why, but perhaps someone knows/saw it too and can post why.

 

In the meantime, Joe Bob says "Check it out!" YMMV, but the little EMO gizmo is better in my system than a Li battery pack powering the mRendu which I tried for kicks vs. the iFi iPower (the iPower won). All smiles here!

 

Oh, I use a Synology DS112. Talk about entry level, ha ha... But I do have an SSD I was thinking of installing, and the computers are on a separate AC line while the audio gear has its own dedicated line.

[Cebolla]

The results listed here are consistent with my experience.

 

I find the best sq is achieved using the NAS as a simple file server to a combined Roon and HQplayer upsampling machine. I also use the NAS machine to ISCSI boot the player machine. The NAS machine runs a virtual switch, eliminating the need for a physical ethernet switch. There is native support for a virtual switch in the latest version of the Qnap OS. Powering the NAS with a good LPS makes a difference as well. Lastly an EMOsystems ethernet isolator adds to sq when placed between the two machines.

Hi lmitche,

 

Not sure what you are comparing, with your proprietary (ie non UPnP/DLNA) Roon and HQPlayer setup, to Dave's setup. Points 1 to 5 used a UPnP/DLNA media server (specifically MinimServer, in some situations) supplying (yet to be decoded and played) music files over the network to a streamer. In all five of those points, the NAS or the "PC as NAS" being used to run the UPnP/DLNA media is behaving as a "simple file server" - that's the way UPnP/DLNA network music file streaming works.

 

If you give your interpretation of those same points showing your 'equivalent' Roon/HQplayer network setups, I might see what you are getting at. However, I suspect an 'apples and oranges' comparison between Dave's UPnP/DLNA network use and your Roon and/or HQPlayer network setup experiences.

 

John

[DavidL]

I'm quite certain it affects sound. The variables may be a bit murky but I have been through several different scenarios playing to same streamer with audibly different results. From worst to best for what I have tried so far

 

1. Buffalo Linkstation NAS using built in media server software and WD red harddrives- this reminded me of an old Technics turntable used for LP playback, compressed dynamics, life less sound

2. PC as NAS using SSD for Win 10 OS, 1TB hybrid drive for music files, Minimserver for app, no special optimization- decent dynamics but boring for detail resolution, like a coin that's been in circulation where the fine detail is worn, blurry

3. Synology DS214play NAS with WD red harddrives using Minimserver - good dynamics, improved detail, but leading edges are dulled for loud transients and some digital irritants/fatigue factor

4. Synology DS214play NAS with Crucial MX SSD using Minimserver - as above but with reduced digital irritants/fatigue factor

5. PC as NAS using SSD for Win 10 OS, 1TB hybrid drive for music files, Minimserver and Fidelizer 7.3- as above but with greater resolution, using the coin analogy, closer to "uncirculated" level of fine detail

 

As a next experiment, I've renewed my license for Audiophile Optimizer, will be trying a Win10 image with it to see if it can better Fidelizer. IMHO similiar issues that lead to microRendu design exist for NAS...we need a NAS purpose built for audio only. I'm not hopeful that the dulled peak transients is solvable without better hardware.

 

As you can see from my signature I use a Synology DS412+ running MinimServer. I can hear no sound quality difference between 16/44.1 music from this and the corresponding CD played from my PS Audio Perfect Wave transport. I have separate mains circuits for the computer stuff and the hifi stuff (as Chris does). Two things did give an improvement in sound quality in my system:

 

1) Adding optical isolation in the last leg of the ethernet connection to my DAC (2 off wire-to-fibre ethernet converters back to back).

 

2) Moving the wireless control point on the network from 1ft away to 8ft away from the hifi.

[Cebolla]

In all five of those points, the NAS or the "PC as NAS" being used to run the UPnP/DLNA media is behaving as a "simple file server" - that's the way UPnP/DLNA network music file streaming works.

Oops, as it's too late to edit my last post, thought it best to correct and add the missing word here, to avoid any confusion. The above should read:

 

In all five of those points, the NAS or the "PC as NAS" being used to run the UPnP/DLNA media server is behaving as a "simple file server" - that's the way UPnP/DLNA network music file streaming works.

[lmitche]

Hi lmitche,

 

Not sure what you are comparing, with your proprietary (ie non UPnP/DLNA) Roon and HQPlayer setup, to Dave's setup. Points 1 to 5 used a UPnP/DLNA media server (specifically MinimServer, in some situations) supplying (yet to be decoded and played) music files over the network to a streamer. In all five of those points, the NAS or the "PC as NAS" being used to run the UPnP/DLNA media is behaving as a "simple file server" - that's the way UPnP/DLNA network music file streaming works.

 

If you give your interpretation of those same points showing your 'equivalent' Roon/HQplayer network setups, I might see what you are getting at. However, I suspect an 'apples and oranges' comparison between Dave's UPnP/DLNA network use and your Roon and/or HQPlayer network setup experiences.

 

John

Hi Cebolla,

 

Yes, my post was unclear, apologies.

 

Starting a year ago, I went through a similar test of the combinations Qnap, Synology and DIY built NAS configs, running with native NAS OSes or Windows or Linux. This included boot from SSD, HDDs etcetera. Minimserver was used, just as in the case above, running both on the NAS box or in the playerPC (with a simple SMB connection to the NAS box).

 

All of these configs used iscsi boot of the playerPC.

 

In the end, the DIY NAS, booting from a HDD running Linux and serving music files via SMBD sounded best with minimserver running on the playerPC, also running Linux with upnmpd/mpd as renderer.

 

Later, in order to enable DSD512 playback, I switched the playerPC to boot Windows, and added Roon/HQplayer on the playerPC using the same NAS config described above.

 

SQ is terrific. YMMV.

 

Happy to see that feelingears had a wow moment with the EMOsystems en70hd.

 

Larry

[Albrecht]

How did you compare the sound of different NAS devices through the microRendu?

 

I have a Synology NAS from their value series. I find it hard to believe that I'd hear an improvement in sound quality by moving to a NAS with a better processor.

 

IME, it is contingent on where the server software is located.

 

Cheers,