Ethernet cables

[davide256]

Check this thread for a 34 tab ongoing discussion about replacing Ethernet cable with optical fiber, its not for the faint of heart but you can replace all your copper Ethernet cables with optics fiber and self powered transceivers at both ends or go the additional step of buying a router that powers/ supports optics plug ins for all your desired optical Ethernet connections. Call it end game for an Ethernet audio solution that cuts the cable bling manufacturers out.

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f22-networking-networked-audio-and-streaming/optical-network-configurations-24641/

[feelingears]

I have to smile when I see Sota Sapphire in someone's sig! Read all about 'em long ago but never heard one. Luckily you don't need Ethernet with that rig.

 

Cheers.

[feelingears]

Okay, now I can--I couldn't resist. I just got my Supra Cat 8s today. One meter for NAS to Airport Extreme. One meter for Airport Express to microRendu.

 

...

 

In my system, there is slightly lower, tighter bass. I like how I can hear a bit more electric bass string snap on one of my test tracks. And some extra high-frequency keyboard detail comes through on another track that I don't recall hearing before. But would you miss this stuff if you hadn't heard the cables side by side? Perhaps if you use the same tracks often and listen for detail rather just listen as background noise. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)

 

Okay, at the risk of losing all credibility (and probably deserving it!), I burned my cables in 24/3 (3 days) and gave another listen. I'll just say that the sound was coherent and nicely detailed. High end was better than I recalled. But. Something was niggling at me. Yeah, it was my old gremlin, the bass. It just wasn't quite as separated as before in the attacks and decays of the bass guitar and upper bass/lower midrange.

 

So, I put the BJC Cat 6a cables back in and Bob's yer uncle as they say. Well, this is why it's a fun hobby although this one cost me a nice dinner out. Going back to the BJC, it sounds like I've lost some of the high end that is so smooth and extended with the Supras, but I got back the toe-tappin' head bobbin' bump. I can easily see people who like treble transparency going for the Supras. BJCs have more soundstage too.

 

I'll give the Supras another try after a while but for now, post less, listen more. Hope this helps, YMMV and all.

[jtrelin]

Just ordered 3 foot runs of the BJC 6 and 6a. Relatively inexpensive investment for a fun test. I'll tell you what I find. From reading the thread, what I'm gathering is stock cable is a crapshoot, and the table appears to be rigged. The BJC is certified and consistent, making it a good reference for 6 and 6a to compare against other cables and each other. I'm curious to see what I find. What I know about the Supra is that I had a consistent upper midrange and upper vocal distotion on cetain recordgings that was driving me crazy. I tried everything to remove it, even upgrading from a Chord 2Qute to a Bricasti and changing and Aurender to the microRendu. While both turned out to be better products, they didn't remove the distortion. I changed interconnects and power cables, etc. I also swapped out stock cat 6, 7, and 8 cables, all with no luck. When I installed the Supras, it was fixed.

[feelingears]

Just ordered 3 foot runs of the BJC 6 and 6a. Relatively inexpensive investment for a fun test. I'll tell you what I find. From reading the thread, what I'm gathering is stock cable is a crapshoot, and the table appears to be rigged. The BJC is certified and consistent, making it a good reference for 6 and 6a to compare against other cables and each other. I'm curious to see what I find. What I know about the Supra is that I had a consistent upper midrange and upper vocal distotion on cetain recordgings that was driving me crazy. I tried everything to remove it, even upgrading from a Chord 2Qute to a Bricasti and changing and Aurender to the microRendu. While both turned out to be better products, they didn't remove the distortion. I changed interconnects and power cables, etc. I also swapped out stock cat 6, 7, and 8 cables, all with no luck. When I installed the Supras, it was fixed.

 

I like your solution(s)! Glad that you nixed that annoyance, but sorry it seems to have cost you so much time and money.

 

Part of what makes this fun for me is finding enjoyable differences if there are any. Before the mRendu, these were typically big moves like changing speakers. I got little changes out of cables and largely wasn't interested in toying around with other cables though there were differences (often negative with my Naim gear). But with the microRendu, subtleties have become more prominent. Very much so in some cases. I didn't expect to hear any difference with Ethernet cables, but there they are.

 

The Supras do some nice things. I will try them again after I burn them in on my network for a longer time as I heard a similar effect with bass on an interconnect cable: great high frequencies, great PRaT, smooth midrange, but recessed and blurrier bass. Maybe that's the way it goes, or maybe they need to burn in much longer. I dunno.

[Mark007]

Very interesting discussion. Thanks Guys.

Obviously, better quality ethernet cables will work better, even just in 'normal' use.

Cheap eBay cables are a nightmare, thrown loads away that have caused all sorts of odd problems over the years in the day job.

So tend to make my own now with some quality cable and RJ45s. and keep those contacts clean to reduce packet loss as they will tarnish....

I already use fibre on the backbone links (trying to reduce RF noise!) that made a difference to the network in general with smoother transfers (all 1Gb/s) compared Gb copper, you could goto LAG 2x SPF if you wanted... (I've done that on the server.) and of course the most important part of this all is a nice fast layer two switch. That's where my money went and boy was it worth it.

 

MarkA

[Mike Rubin]

I am kinda lost. I was using generic short Cat 6 runs between switch and FMC, between FMC and microRendu, and between transmitter and receiver on a LANRover. I then read at the PSAudio forums that I really wanted Cat 7, not Cat 6, so, for a few bucks, I bought some generic Cat 7's to replace the Cat 6. To my ears, and of course this could be placebo effects, the Cat 7's immediately seemed to create an even "blacker" and "more quiet" background -- to quote the cliches -- than did the Cat 6's. Remind me again why Cat 6 is "better" than Cat 7?

[Mark007]

.. dunno to be honest ... Cat7 is 10Gb/s ready, so that must mean better crosstalk figures and bandwidth? but as always the bottom line is what your ears tell you.. not what the blurb/instruments/measurements quote.

We all know that certain combinations on paper are fine.. but in the flesh.. sometimes it just doesn't. for whatever reason.

[adamaley]

Where are you gentlemen sourcing your Supra CAT8s from? Thanks in advance.

[tboooe]

I am kinda lost. I was using generic short Cat 6 runs between switch and FMC, between FMC and microRendu, and between transmitter and receiver on a LANRover. I then read at the PSAudio forums that I really wanted Cat 7, not Cat 6, so, for a few bucks, I bought some generic Cat 7's to replace the Cat 6. To my ears, and of course this could be placebo effects, the Cat 7's immediately seemed to create an even "blacker" and "more quiet" background -- to quote the cliches -- than did the Cat 6's. Remind me again why Cat 6 is "better" than Cat 7?

 

Very interesting! I too am using FMC and fiber optic in my music network. I just read up on Cat7 and in a nutshell it's better than Cat6 due to "shielding of its twisted pairs, which significantly improves noise resistance." Of course the whole point in using fiber is to eliminate the noise in the first place so not sure how Cat7 can help in my situation.

 

But, as a true audiophile it's my duty to spend more money and try this out. Amazon Prime here I come!

[plissken]

I am kinda lost. I was using generic short Cat 6 runs between switch and FMC, between FMC and microRendu, and between transmitter and receiver on a LANRover. I then read at the PSAudio forums that I really wanted Cat 7, not Cat 6, so, for a few bucks, I bought some generic Cat 7's to replace the Cat 6. To my ears, and of course this could be placebo effects, the Cat 7's immediately seemed to create an even "blacker" and "more quiet" background -- to quote the cliches -- than did the Cat 6's. Remind me again why Cat 6 is "better" than Cat 7?

 

It's Placebo.

 

I have $2000 that say's there isn't a soul here that can reliably pick in a SBT an audiophile Ethernet cable vs some bog standard BJC or Tripplite where all cable pass spec.

 

CAT7 technically doesn't exist since there isn't ratified standard as of yet.

 

It's pure bullshit. Playback systems are buffered. This means you can pull the cable out and the music will still continue to play. I could even do a simple test were we setup the system with only the single cable and a believer would only need indicate when the cable was removed from the switch.

[plissken]

Very interesting! I too am using FMC and fiber optic in my music network. I just read up on Cat7 and in a nutshell it's better than Cat6 due to "shielding of its twisted pairs, which significantly improves noise resistance." Of course the whole point in using fiber is to eliminate the noise in the first place so not sure how Cat7 can help in my situation.

 

But, as a true audiophile it's my duty to spend more money and try this out. Amazon Prime here I come!

 

CAT 6 is 50/60 Hz noise immune. It exhibits noise rejection up to 30MHz.

[plissken]

Very interesting! I too am using FMC and fiber optic in my music network. I just read up on Cat7 and in a nutshell it's better than Cat6 due to "shielding of its twisted pairs, which significantly improves noise resistance." Of course the whole point in using fiber is to eliminate the noise in the first place so not sure how Cat7 can help in my situation.

 

But, as a true audiophile it's my duty to spend more money and try this out. Amazon Prime here I come!

 

It's better noise resistance from the adjacent pair of cables since there are 4 pairs carrying signal. There is bonding of the pair, there is shielding of each pair, and there is shielding applied to the cable.

 

They are protecting the cables from themselves because the are clocked at 500Mhz for pete's sake.

[Ralf11]

There is no such science.

 

 

Actually, there is - the field is psychology and the concept is confirmation bias.

[jos]

It's Placebo.

 

I have $2000 that say's there isn't a soul here that can reliably pick in a SBT an audiophile Ethernet cable vs some bog standard BJC or Tripplite where all cable pass spec.

 

CAT7 technically doesn't exist since there isn't ratified standard as of yet.

 

It's pure bullshit. Playback systems are buffered. This means you can pull the cable out and the music will still continue to play. I could even do a simple test were we setup the system with only the single cable and a believer would only need indicate when the cable was removed from the switch.

 

I have such a buffered system (Audirvana Plus), but after changing my standard cat6 cable to Supra cat8 I did hear a difference. Perhaps you could also say: there is more between heaven and earth we don't know. I looks like they sound a little brighter and with more resolution, but perhaps it was wishful thinking based on what I have read in this tread. Ik just don't know.

[Emcee]

Actually, there is - the field is psychology and the concept is confirmation bias.

 

Well documented in the food industry. Purple colored juice - when asked everybody says it's grape juice when in fact it's apple.

[plissken]

I have such a buffered system (Audirvana Plus), but after changing my standard cat6 cable to Supra cat8 I did hear a difference. Perhaps you could also say: there is more between heaven and earth we don't know. I looks like they sound a little brighter and with more resolution, but perhaps it was wishful thinking based on what I have read in this tread. Ik just don't know.

 

I think you 'think' you heard a difference. Audivana is just software so I can give it a go on the A/D loop and post the result back here.

 

Check out my Starlight thread. I've posted two tracks. I changed out between a 315 foot generic Cat5e and $330 12 foot WireWorld CAT8 cable in the middle of playback.

 

Good luck and on the vocal track tell me when I made the cable change. The acoustic track I already posted the time of swap.

[firedog]

Well documented in the food industry. Purple colored juice - when asked everybody says it's grape juice when in fact it's apple.

 

It's also documented with audio. Look up the McGurk effect on youtube.

[plissken]

Well documented in the food industry. Purple colored juice - when asked everybody says it's grape juice when in fact it's apple.

 

Here is a good read

[Ralf11]

Lots of interesting stuff near where the ox fords....

 

https://www.psy.ox.ac.uk/research/crossmodal-research-laboratory

[acatala]

I wonder how can people hear differences with a simple Ethernet cable change. Are we out of our minds? Between the Ethernet cable at physical layer and our ears there is a protocol at MAC layer that correct transmision errors and another one at transport layer that corrects errors too. Besides, there is a wonderful buffer in-between.

[plissken]

I wonder how can people hear differences with a simple Ethernet cable change. Are we out of our minds? Between the Ethernet cable at physical layer and our ears there is a protocol at MAC layer that correct transmision errors and another one at transport layer that corrects errors too. Besides, there is a wonderful buffer in-between.

 

The contention is that there are 'Mixed Signaling Systems' that can corrupt the DAC. That 'it' has nothing to do with the transformer isolation, the TCP/IP stack, nor even buffering, or CMNR or noise immunity of CAT6 up to 30Mhz.

 

I've asked on several occasions if someone could simply start playback and have some one yank the Ethernet cable out and see if they could tell the moment it happened.

 

This should be easy since the likes of Michael Lavorgna have said the cables make a 'readily apparent' and 'easily discernible' difference and William Low of AQ maintains that even a room full of people at an acoustically less than optimal trade show booth/room can also hear the difference "all over the world" and "every day".

[jos]

The contention is that there are 'Mixed Signaling Systems' that can corrupt the DAC. That 'it' has nothing to do with the transformer isolation, the TCP/IP stack, nor even buffering, or CMNR or noise immunity of CAT6 up to 30Mhz.

 

I've asked on several occasions if someone could simply start playback and have some one yank the Ethernet cable out and see if they could tell the moment it happened.

 

This should be easy since the likes of Michael Lavorgna have said the cables make a 'readily apparent' and 'easily discernible' difference and William Low of AQ maintains that even a room full of people at an acoustically less than optimal trade show booth/room can also hear the difference "all over the world" and "every day".

 

How about this story, see link below? It doesn't seems to be nonsense, although I'm not a 'strong' cable believer too. I jus want a good quality cable and I could buy the Supra cat8 for a very reasonable price. In Denmark My choice is based on my experience with the Supra USB 2.0., I already have. Supra is, in my opinion, very good in shielding cables. And I think shielding is important.

 

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2014/12/global-feedback-can-ethernet-cables-make-a-difference/

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

[plissken]

How about this story, see link below? It doesn't seems to be nonsense, although I'm not a 'strong' cable believer too. I jus want a good quality cable and I could buy the Supra cat8 for a very reasonable price. In Denmark My choice is based on my experience with the Supra USB 2.0., I already have. Supra is, in my opinion, very good in shielding cables. And I think shielding is important.

 

Global feedback: can Ethernet cables make a difference? | DAR__KO

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

 

If you read the article 85% is spent on using a USB brush to paint an Ethernet house. They are two different connection standards with Ethernet being far and away much more strict system.

 

So much of it simply can't be applied.

 

Ethernet is a heavily buffered system. You can start playback with many devices and pull the Ethernet cable and playback continues. Did the sound suddenly, and like magic, improve?

 

Darko is referencing that this is 1 of 3 articles and I haven't read the other two. I would welcome to debate this live at an Audio Show with each bringing their test setups and allowing for inspection and crowd participation.

 

Shielding is part of the spec for 6a and 8 and shield can be implemented in basically 3 ways. Float, fully tied, partially tied. In addition to that you have each pair of copper also in it's own shield to prevent cross talk. So Supra is confined to the specification body for Ethernet. They aren't doing anything special.

 

Read the Siemons paper and you will find that unshielded (UTP) CAT6 is noise immune to 30Mhz. Keep in mind CAT 6 can be UTP, 6a is shielded as part of the enhanced standard.

 

 

Try these papers:

 

Siemons 'The Antenna Myth'

 

 

AN-1862 Reducing Radiated Emmissions in Ethernet 10/100 LAN Applications

 

Also I have two tracks that I recorded with my ADC. I randomly swap a 315 foot generic Ethernet cable and a 12 foot $330 cable. Let me know if you want the links. You can decide for yourself if they make a 'readily apparent' and 'easy to discern' difference.

 

I would invite Darko to do the same until it could and should be done in person.

[jos]

If you read the article 85% is spent on using a USB brush to paint an Ethernet house. They are two different connection standards with Ethernet being far and away much more strict system.

 

So much of it simply can't be applied.

 

Ethernet is a heavily buffered system. You can start playback with many devices and pull the Ethernet cable and playback continues. Did the sound suddenly, and like magic, improve?

 

Darko is referencing that this is 1 of 3 articles and I haven't read the other two. I would welcome to debate this live at an Audio Show with each bringing their test setups and allowing for inspection and crowd participation.

 

Shielding is part of the spec for 6a and 8 and shield can be implemented in basically 3 ways. Float, fully tied, partially tied. In addition to that you have each pair of copper also in it's own shield to prevent cross talk. So Supra is confined to the specification body for Ethernet. They aren't doing anything special.

 

Read the Siemons paper and you will find that unshielded (UTP) CAT6 is noise immune to 30Mhz. Keep in mind CAT 6 can be UTP, 6a is shielded as part of the enhanced standard.

 

 

Try these papers:

 

Siemons 'The Antenna Myth'

 

 

AN-1862 Reducing Radiated Emmissions in Ethernet 10/100 LAN Applications

 

Also I have two tracks that I recorded with my ADC. I randomly swap a 315 foot generic Ethernet cable and a 12 foot $330 cable. Let me know if you want the links. You can decide for yourself if they make a 'readily apparent' and 'easy to discern' difference.

 

I would invite Darko to do the same until it could and should be done in person.

 

Thanks for the information! I agree with you that if cable meet specifications, there should be no difference in a buffered system. My cables, cat 6, (not 6a) where long and very cheap. So the Supra cables are giving me peace of mind. I will look into the link you sent me...

 

Thanks again!

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile