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Is the Ravenna setup for multicast streaming?

Can you set it to unicast, instead?

 

I had the same issue with my Rednet 3 flooding my Asus RT-AC56U router's wifi. The problem was that I had a multicast flow enabled on the transmit side (from the Rednet 3 to the whole network) and my router was passing multi-cast packets over to Wifi devices.

 

In the router's manual, there's an option to disable Wifi multi-casting. Alas, the option is not present in the newer firmwares.

 

Disabling that transmit multi-cast from the Rednet device solved the issue. It wasn't used anyway. I set it up as a test and forgot about it.

 

For everybody's interested, Merging has released recently a new firmware and drivers bundle for NADAC that is now supporting Unicast as default. This solves all problems observed in the early versions of NADAC on home networks. No more managed switches are required for normal operation of NADAC on "sensible" networks and no more perturbations of the network are observed when NADAC is operating, nor audio artifacts on the NADAC outputs.

 

Multicast support is still available for those enjoying professional grade networks (meaning isolated from heavy internet usage, wifi, etc... typical family usage of home networks) and can still use NADAC in these conditions as an option in the driver.

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In the latest release notes of the Ravenna Virtual Sound Card it says it only does MultiCast at the moment and UniCast will be added at a later point. This is probably what Chris Connacker used.

This then also requires that IGMP-snooping is configured to prevent drowning the network.

Yes, the manual for the Dante configuration can be used for QoS if you have managed switches that allow for that. The best manual is from audinate itself which explains how to setup IGMP snooping from pg 58 onwards in this manual: https://www.audinate.com/sites/default/files/PDF/advanced-dante-networking-avnw-2015-audinate.pdf

 

But all this IGMP snooping and QoS configuration is not needed for AOIP in a home setting when using Dante RedNets and keeping to the default Unicast settings.

 

Ravenna has still some work to do on their virtual sound card.

It would be best if the Dante DVS would act as a proper AES67 device, it could then be used for any AOIP that was AES67 compliant. Unfortunately Audinate has no plans to make the DVS a proper AES67 device. There is a possibility that Audinate will upgrade their PCIe cards to proper AES67 devices, which could then be used to front any other AES67 device.

 

Cheers

 

Merging has two versions of the Ravenna Virtual Sound Card (well more than that actually), but mainly one for the professional side, still in multicast, with much more streams supported, and a consumer one, now operating in unicast (or multicast optionally).

 

There are definitely plans for releasing the unicast support in the professional Virtual Sound Card at some point in the future, however Merging is currently addressing other priorities.

 

AES67 is one of them, Merging released at the beginning of the year a free AES67 Virtual Sound Card that will allow connecting to Dante as soon as their AES67 support will be released, however only at 44.1/48 kHz for the time being. But Merging is following this thread very closely.

 

On thing that is important to notice though, is that Ravenna is the only open protocol supporting sampling rates up to DXD/384kHz, and more important DSD. The currently available Ravenna Virtual Sound Cards, both using multicast for the professional world and unicast for the consumer world do support DSD up to 11.2 (for now), as standard in the protocol, without cheating with DoP. These VSC are available for both Mac and Windows and soon for Linux.

 

AoIP is a complexe beast with multiple heads, that exists for decades on thousands of flavors, however Merging is committed to release usable technology, products and drivers, based on open protocols, allowing for multiple manufacturers to be OPENLY INTEROPERABLE at ANY RESOLUTION on VARIOUS MARKETS.

 

So, Aleg, thank you very much for your very important post, and you're perfectly right Ravenna has still some work to do on their Virtual Sound Card, but this work is actually being done, and very actively. We're progressing step by step, adding the necessary features for each market and applications as they're required, but the motto is simple, networked high resolution for all, and we're not that far.

 

Cheers,

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Hi dbrulhart

 

Thank you for your postings that gives us more insight in the Ravenna products from Merging. Very interesting developments indeed.

Is it correct that the "Merging RAVENNA/AES67 Virtual Audio Device - STANDARD Installer" is only available for OSX, or am I overlooking the proper link for Windows?

I immediately applied for the temporary download access of course, but fail to see the Windows version of the Virtual Audio Device.

 

Thanks for your help.

 

All Merging devices ship with a Ravenna ASIO and CoreAudio driver. Professional products ship with a driver that supports AES67 and offers all flexibility to choose between the various flavors of Ravenna and AES67. Consumer products ship with a slightly modified version of the driver that uses Unicast and highly simplifies the way the connections are done between the hardware (NADAC) and the computer host running the driver (or VSC), no additional application is required to route the signal, only the NADAC front panel and/or related iOS apps are required to select which computer/playback source on the network the NADAC will listen to. Things are slightly more complex though flexible on the pro side.

For the time being these two drivers/VSC require a Merging equipment pro or consumer to be functional. They can connect to other Ravenna/AES67 compatible equipment on the network, but one Merging device must be present on the network for now.

However, we released in January the first version of a driver which doesn't need the presence of a Merging equipment on the network and this is the so called "Merging RAVENNA/AES67 Virtual Audio Device - STANDARD Installer". This is to promote and establish AES67 on the market as we strongly believe this is the future of AoIP. For technical/performance reasons this is available for now only on the Mac platform. We will release a Windows version down the road. A Linux version is also in preparation.

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Hi dbrulhart

 

As far as I know (and I have it first hand from Audinate) the AES67 support has already been available since January 2016 for Dante devices based on their Brooklyn II card, so there shouldn't (have to) be any issues on that front.

 

Cheers

 

Audinate indeed released the AES67 support for the Brooklyn II card (and has been successfully tested during last AES67 plugfest in Washington DC last year, however as this card is only the "Dante engine" for all products using it, it now down to the companies integrating it to release this update in their own products. This is on the way, but not "automatic" and has to follow every single companies agenda.

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I am very glad to see some industry participants starting to drop in here. It is a very good sign, one that a number of us hope will usher in true audiophile products based upon IP technology.

 

Personally I feel that it might be helpful if you could provide us with a brief introduction since some of us might not be as familiar with your reputation or affiliations.

 

Thanks!

 

Paul

 

Well, it was not the point here to make any advertisement for Merging, specially in a thread initially targeted to Focusrite/RedNet, but just clarifying some points about Ravenna/AES67, as they've been mentioned in the thread, as well as Merging point of view and status about both these protocols, as they are what we truly believe being the future of audio over IP, and particularly high resolution.

 

As per an introduction to Merging work and expertise, and again not to fall in easy advertisement, nor trying to offload myself to writing something at length here, I feel a pretty decent introduction to Merging history, philosophy and expertise in networking can be found here:

 

MERGING+NADAC | HISTORY

MERGING+NADAC | PHILOSOPHY

MERGING+NADAC | NETWORKING

Merging Technologies | Pyramix 10 | 3D - RAVENNA AoIP Connectivity Explained

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Thanks. Yes. I am very interested in having industry participation here. I just think that introductions are useful especially from those with the ability to incorporate our feedback into new products. As SuperDad says it can be as simple as adding a line in your signature.

 

I did not feel at all that you were advertising but that you were adding knowledge based upon real experience, something that is "occasionally" lacking in other threads :-)

 

I was the OP but have no interest in curating or guiding the thread. I am happy to see it grow as others see fit and discuss audio over IP in a broad way. I started the thread because I recently bought a Focusrite Rednet D16 and have found it to be a revelation.

 

In the spirit of introductions I have been an audiophile for about 40 years and a Network Engineer for the last 20 so I am eating this stuff up!

 

..so Welcome!

 

OK, got it, sorry for the confusion... and that'll be quicker ;-)

 

I'm Dominique Brulhart, co-founder of Merging Technologies some 25 years ago, my main position is Head of Software Engineering at Merging. I've initiated the step in the consumer market some years ago and taken the role of Product Manager for the consumer line, being NADAC at that point in time.

 

Very happy to hear that you're in the networking industry and that the RedNet has been a revelation for you. Networking has also been a revelation for Merging some 8-9 years ago when we stepped in this technology for our pro line, mainly for bandwidth and cabling consideration initially, but it's been very clear immediately that networked audio is much much more than plumbing.

 

The flexibility, quality, precision, easiness of deployment, redundancy, sharing of devices, etc, etc... of networking solutions changed the life of many/most of our users (and ourselves), clearly for the better, and while we perfectly acknowledge that professional and home usage involve pretty different requirements, we have absolutely no doubt that the home/consumer industry has all to benefit from AoIP. (And even more by using open protocols like Ravenna, in which for instance we could very easily add the support for DSD in the standard... typically adding the support for DSD512 (or higher) will be a question of days, mainly administrative days, the tougher though ;-))

 

The move to NADAC was not meant to make a statement or rule this world on any manner, it's been a careful decision, based on repeated requests from our mastering and recording engineers customers, and the choice of going with a no compromise Ravenna solution without USB was just an obvious and non-negotiable decision, thus its name NADAC.

 

There's been some youth issues on home networks, like the Unicast/Multicast or some interaction with specific equipment that we never find on professional dedicated networks, the kind of problems Chris Connaker mentioned in this thread, that is now solved and available to all NADAC users through a recent firmware and driver update. However these were not intrinsic problems of the Ravenna or AES67 protocol, but Merging implementation issues. I guess it's important to make this very clear.

 

We're already working on new products, both on the pro and the consumer side, and all of them will definitely be Ravenna/AES67 compatible, high resolution capable and targeted to expand an ecosystem making the link between both the pro and the consumer world and allowing producers to easily provide and listeners as easily enjoy master quality recordings at home.

 

Here's for the introduction ;-)

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While it is great that Merging is now giving away their OS X Core Audio Ravenna VSC (built I assume by updating Steinberg ASIO to be OS X-compatible), the 44.1/48KHz sample rate limitation of the free version is not likely to attract other DAC manufacturers to join the Ravenna revolution.

 

I spoke at length up-thread about readily available (free or licensed), maintained, and cross-platform VSC being the key to broader adoption of AES67/Ravenna by other hardware manufacturers. Might Merging consider taking the lead and becoming the source for such? A modest license fee--either charged to the hardware OEM or to their end customers--could help offset development and support costs.

[The offered VSC could even be restricted to a few channels and even unicast--as long as all sample rate limitations were lifted.]

Such a move would certainly be welcome by all and would clearly cement Merging Technologies leadership position in the AES67/Ravenna marketplace.

 

I am sure that many here look forward to your comments on the above proposition. I do realize that you are likely restricted on disclosing your firms future plans. But Merging is presently the best hope that audiophiles have for seeing Ravenna take off in our marketplace (and not all of us can afford or want to purchase the fine NADAC. ;)).

 

Thanks and regards.

 

It's perfectly clear that the so called "Merging RAVENNA/AES67 Virtual Audio Device - STANDARD Installer" has been released to allow anybody interested in trying AES67 to be able to do so for free and easily. We limited this version of the driver to the exact AES67 specifications, being 44.1/48kHz, 48 samples framesize, etc... purposely to fit this specification and NOT make it unusable in certain conditions or markets.

 

Same remark applies to your assumption that the OSX CoreAudio driver is an update of the Steinberg ASIO driver, unfortunately not... the CoreAudio has been a major rewriting as compared to ASIO, and while we're traditionally a Windows company, we have to confess that the OSX version, thanks to the CoreAudio platform, is more "powerful" than the ASIO version, and allowed for a "clean" release of the VSC without hardware required, and not the Windows/ASIO version for the time being, but will/may come in the future.

 

This free VSC is Merging contribution to the arising and deployment of an AoIP AES standard, that we were waiting for since years and are immensely grateful to all those persons involved in its publication.

 

Now we're fully aware that AES67 in its current form doesn't fit for certain applications, typically high resolution and consumer requirements, discovery, easy connections between devices, etc... but for this there is Ravenna, which perfectly covers all these aspects. We still definitely need Ravenna for our commercial products, being pro or consumer, and still deliver Ravenna drivers with all our products, however with slight differences, based on the specificity of their targeted usage, as described above in this thread.

 

However AES67 being a subset of Ravenna, all our drivers are then AES67 compatible by default.

 

Now to the question of knowing if Merging would be interested in providing Ravenna/AES67 Virtual Sound Cards, drivers or even hardware parts to other manufacturers, and help (if not necessarily lead) in the development and deployment of Ravenna based solutions for this market, the answer is clearly: Yes.

 

We are currently actively working on solutions that will be able to be integrated in other products (as well as ours ;-) and will be available in a reasonably near future.

 

As you say, disclosing firms future plans will only be done under NDA at this stage, however you can send us private messages immediately ;-)

 

Cheers,

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  • 1 year later...
6 hours ago, Miska said:

 

Merging already has their NADAC. But I'd rather see something that doesn't need clock distribution on the network and special network adapters to properly support that. I'd prefer protocol that is less complex and would be more geared towards home playback use cases. Otherwise Mac users can have only limited capabilities, since there are no PCIe slots on Macs anymore and I haven't seen anybody making special Thunderbolt ethernet-adapters yet although such thing is doable. This Focusrite RedNet adapter works directly only on Windows PCs:

https://pro.focusrite.com/category/audiooverip/item/rednet-pcier

Otherwise you need yet another box for doing Thunderbolt-to-PCIe.

 

 

Hi Miska,

 

The clock distribution is part of the RAVENNA (PTP2) and Dante protocol (PTP1) and is totally transparent and not complex. No special adapters are needed.

 

On the pro market (Horus/Hapi) we use RAVENNA/AES67 in multicast mode, and this indeed requires being careful with the network not to impact too much other equipment on this network.

 

However on the home market (NADAC) we use RAVENNA in unicast mode, which works perfectly on any network, with any of the shelf switches or network adapters. And all this works natively even for multichannel DSD (DSD is part of RAVENNA, as opposed to Dante) without any complexity involved.

 

Merging provides RAVENNA/AES67 drivers for Windows, Mac and Linux (so no hardware adapters required) as well as OEM hardware cards for integrating in hardware products.

 

Simple ;-)

 

Cheers,

 

Dominique

 

 

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On 1/6/2018 at 6:48 PM, ferenc said:

 

Thanks for the info and your contribution. Can we expect any announcement around NAMM time few weeks later, regarding Ravenna? :) 

 

Merging doesn't do NAMM, we're concentrating on pro shows like AES/NAB/IBC/ISE/Infocomm and consumer high-end shows.

 

But there will be RAVENNA related announcements soon ;-)

 

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