mmerrill99 Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 I would also agree with John on this. In fact, I might go further to say that it seems as though many of the "improvements" currently being pursued by leading DAC and associated hardware and software designers might fall into the category of reducing the anomalies that cause perceptual confusion. To the extent these are difficult to measure, we are depending on the golden ears of the developers to figure out which changes are successfully reducing these anomalies. In any case, it does seem to be working as we continue to make real strides forward in overall fidelity and in particular have taken the level of fidelity we can pull from a 16/44 file to a whole new level. +1 I'm always amazed when I see some people making comments like "I put my ear to the speaker when not playing music & I hear no noise - I don't have any noise issue" It says a lot about their understanding of audio replay & psychoacoustics, in general Link to comment
firedog Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 +1I'm always amazed when I see some people making comments like "I put my ear to the speaker when not playing music & I hear no noise - I don't have any noise issue" It says a lot about their understanding of audio replay & psychoacoustics, in general I'm not really sure that's their point. Lots of pretty decent systems DO have audible noise (sort of a hiss) at the speaker output - with no music playing. Would you prefer that or a system that DOESN'T have any? Wouldn't you consider the 2nd system "quieter"? Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
master Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 I'm not really sure that's their point. Lots of pretty decent systems DO have audible noise (sort of a hiss) at the speaker output - with no music playing. Would you prefer that or a system that DOESN'T have any? Wouldn't you consider the 2nd system "quieter"? +1. I've heard plenty of even high-end/expensive systems with a hiss and a hum. Plug in a USB source (especially a PC) and you'll hear plenty. It's one way (maybe an extremely basic one at that, but still a way) to find equipment that takes care of isolating the noise issue. I remember the time we plugged in a USB into the Chord 2Qute and the hum/buzz completely disappeared. Not so much success with "lesser" and yet more expensive DACs and even AVRs. Next to the Word of God, the noble art of music is the greatest treasure in the world - Martin Luther Link to comment
mmerrill99 Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 I'm not really sure that's their point. Lots of pretty decent systems DO have audible noise (sort of a hiss) at the speaker output - with no music playing. Would you prefer that or a system that DOESN'T have any? Wouldn't you consider the 2nd system "quieter"? Yes they are mistaken - they consider that the "noise" that's being talked about is syetem noise when in fact it is what John S stated & I agreed with - it's the artefacts (or noise) produced by the playback system during the processing of dynamic music signals. This is perceived as noise by our auditory processing system & has nothing to do with whether one can hear noise when there is no music playing. Link to comment
mmerrill99 Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 +1. I've heard plenty of even high-end/expensive systems with a hiss and a hum. Plug in a USB source (especially a PC) and you'll hear plenty. It's one way (maybe an extremely basic one at that, but still a way) to find equipment that takes care of isolating the noise issue. I remember the time we plugged in a USB into the Chord 2Qute and the hum/buzz completely disappeared. Not so much success with "lesser" and yet more expensive DACs and even AVRs. What you are experiencing is a ground loop which should be dealt with. I concur that one can have ground loops without hearing this hum or hiss but it is still affecting the audio reproduction - it's one of the issues that causes "lifeless" sound reproduction. Link to comment
master Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 What you are experiencing is a ground loop which should be dealt with. I concur that one can have ground loops without hearing this hum or hiss but it is still affecting the audio reproduction - it's one of the issues that causes "lifeless" sound reproduction. I understand ground loop and this is not it. Maybe hum/buzz were wrong choice of words, but that's been my point all along, it's not exactly easy to put into words and usually its not hearing things as much as "unhearing" things. It's like a veil is lifted. Typically S/PDIF (especially Toslink) and BGT worked as a tweak. The sound was much cleaner. Use USB and it's as if a blanket was covering the music. And it was not the same experience with all equipment. Most of the mid-fi equipment showed remarkable improvement with such tweaks, but some like the Chord 2Qute, and in particular an expensive tube amp from Berning was impervious to all tweaks. Next to the Word of God, the noble art of music is the greatest treasure in the world - Martin Luther Link to comment
firedog Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Yes they are mistaken - they consider that the "noise" that's being talked about is syetem noise when in fact it is what John S stated & I agreed with - it's the artefacts (or noise) produced by the playback system during the processing of dynamic music signals. This is perceived as noise by our auditory processing system & has nothing to do with whether one can hear noise when there is no music playing. No, this has nothing to do with music reproduction as it takes place when no music is being reproduced. Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
firedog Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 What you are experiencing is a ground loop which should be dealt with. I concur that one can have ground loops without hearing this hum or hiss but it is still affecting the audio reproduction - it's one of the issues that causes "lifeless" sound reproduction. Don't think so. You are making all sorts of projections/assumptions that have nothing to do with what I'm writing about. Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
firedog Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 https://www.dropbox.com/sh/f01d6ryykof9hms/AADVMa51xRkVYzx9JeSXG73-a?dl=0 hope this works, let me know there's some explanatory material with the files. They were made by the people who produce the bitperfect player. Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
mmerrill99 Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 I understand ground loop and this is not it. Maybe hum/buzz were wrong choice of words, but that's been my point all along, it's not exactly easy to put into words and usually its not hearing things as much as "unhearing" things. It's like a veil is lifted.In my experience, this lifting of a veil is often as a result of ground noise issues interfering with the dynamics of the reproduction. This isn't recognised as ground noise because it doesn't display the stereotypical symptoms of ground noise hum or buzz - this is probably because it's at a much lower level or is at an inaudible frequency. It is only recognised by it's removal. Typically S/PDIF (especially Toslink) and BGT worked as a tweak. The sound was much cleaner. Use USB and it's as if a blanket was covering the music.Yes, the galvanic isolation of SPDIF & especially Toslink should give you a clue as to what is going on? And it was not the same experience with all equipment. Most of the mid-fi equipment showed remarkable improvement with such tweaks, but some like the Chord 2Qute, and in particular an expensive tube amp from Berning was impervious to all tweaks.Sure, some equipment will be less prone to ground noise loops than others - it's an implementation issue as much as anything Link to comment
mmerrill99 Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 https://www.dropbox.com/sh/f01d6ryykof9hms/AADVMa51xRkVYzx9JeSXG73-a?dl=0 hope this works, let me know there's some explanatory material with the files. They were made by the people who produce the bitperfect player. I'll have a listen later, thanks! Link to comment
Kal Rubinson Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 On 6/2/2016 at 1:16 AM, esldude said: Stochastic resonance. Now this is an area of research that isn't all that old. It is likely more specifics will be learned over time as more research occurs. Several decades old. Kal Rubinson Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile Link to comment
botrytis Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 https://www.nature.com/articles/34812 At least 2 decades old... Kal is right! Wait - a reference from 1929 Debye, P. Polar Molecules (Dover, New York, 1929). Current: Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590 Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects Link to comment
klaus Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 I belong to the camp that is convinced sound floor has little to do with the usual noise numbers. "Arthur Salvador'e describes THIS"SOUND FLOOR" Very good in his webpage. Look for things that happening in the background such as the audience in Friday night in San Francisco or Jazz at the Pawnshop. How MUCH HAVE YOU TO CRANK UP VOLUME TO FOLLOW THE WORDS in the background and how deep can you hear in the back Of the room? aAnalog has much more noise but can detail this much better. Link to comment
botrytis Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 17 minutes ago, klaus said: I belong to the camp that is convinced sound floor has little to do with the usual noise numbers. "Arthur Salvador'e describes THIS"SOUND FLOOR" Very good in his webpage. Look for things that happening in the background such as the audience in Friday night in San Francisco or Jazz at the Pawnshop. How MUCH HAVE YOU TO CRANK UP VOLUME TO FOLLOW THE WORDS in the background and how deep can you hear in the back Of the room? aAnalog has much more noise but can detail this much better. Well, you like compression then.... sandyk 1 Current: Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590 Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects Link to comment
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