Battery power supplies for the Regen

[sandyk]

IME battery power will always be more laid back and smoother than a good SMPS and LPS...but will gain in transparency and a lower noise floor.

 

That is simply not correct. A very good linear PSU can have a lower impedance that is maintained, unlike that of a battery that is discharging, lower noise, and far greater voltage stability under varying load conditions.

You also need to take into account the proximity of the battery to the device to be powered (lead length and gauge of wire) as well as the type of connection made to the battery. e.g. soldered or via a push fit holder etc.

Long leads from a battery may also pick up RF/EMI.

[Cornan]

That is simply not correct. A very good linear PSU can have a lower impedance that is maintained, unlike that of a battery that is discharging, lower noise, and far greater voltage stability under varying load conditions.

You also need to take into account the proximity of the battery to the device to be powered (lead length and gauge of wire) as well as the type of connection made to the battery. e.g. soldered or via a push fit holder etc.

Long leads from a battery may also pick up RF/EMI.

 

That is why i wrote IME (in my experiance) Alex. I am not saying that batteries are overall more silent than a well made (and usually more expensive) LPS...but when batteries are used disconnected from the mains you will have a potensially lower noise floor since the noise cannot come through the "back-door" which is (so far) impossible to prevent with a LPS. Batteries do have their specific noises as well which is likely one of the reasons why I personally hear such a good improvement from externally grounding my Kingrex uPower through the USB output.

[sandyk]

That is why i wrote IME (in my experiance) Alex. I am not saying that batteries are overall more silent than a well made (and usually more expensive) LPS...but when batteries are used disconnected from the mains you will have a potensially lower noise floor since the noise cannot come through the "back-door" which is (so far) impossible to prevent with a LPS. Batteries do have their specific noises as well which is likely one of the reasons why I personally hear such a good improvement from externally grounding my Kingrex uPower through the USB output.

 

Hi Cornan

I agree that it is hard, but not impossible to isolate a typical LPS from all mains related effects like the new Ultracap PSU will do. I.M.O. the best way to avoid battery problems is to start with a higher battery voltage. e.g. 12V and regulate it down to 9V or whatever is needed, using a low noise voltage regulator located near the device to be powered. You will then have a constant voltage from a low impedance source that has a noise level that can rival the best of batteries, but still with the A.C. mains removed from the equation.

 

Regards

Alex

[Crom]

Interesting thread guys. I've been using battery power for various parts of a souped up PC-based Streamer/player and the best I've found is the lifepo4 (model number: ANR26650M1-B). It's been mentioned several pages ago but I wonder why it hasn't been followed up...perhaps someone has already tried and dismissed it for this application? In my tests (and various others') it beat every other battery approach we tried.

 

The problem with many of the battery packs are that they have DC-DC convertors inside which don't help.

 

My approach would be to use two lifepo's in series, outputting 6.6v. The spec sheet says 6-9v supply for the mRendu so this would seem to be OK...although most psu's that have been tried are 7-9v.

 

Anyone got any thoughts on this?

[Cornan]

Hi Alex,

 

Interesting approach! It is just that I always try to avoid voltage regulators were ever possible. However, since I have never tried it myself and I know that there are linear voltage regulators around I will keep it in mind and put it to the test when the next opportunity arrise!

 

/Micael

[Cornan]

Interesting thread guys. I've been using battery power for various parts of a souped up PC-based Streamer/player and the best I've found is the lifepo4 (model number: ANR26650M1-B). It's been mentioned several pages ago but I wonder why it hasn't been followed up...perhaps someone has already tried and dismissed it for this application? In my tests (and various others') it beat every other battery approach we tried.

 

The problem with many of the battery packs are that they have DC-DC convertors inside which don't help.

 

My approach would be to use two lifepo's in series, outputting 6.6v. The spec sheet says 6-9v supply for the mRendu so this would seem to be OK...although most psu's that have been tried are 7-9v.

 

Anyone got any thoughts on this?

 

I think most people would agree that LiFe04 in series would be a great battery pack for the Regen...but it is more difficult to find a suitable battery supply (batterypack with charger) with these batteries. If you know were to find it or have a suitable solution with LiFeP04´s please do post some pictures and links on this thread.

 

I would also be very interested to know if someone have used Ultracapacitors in combination with batteries to power a USB Regen.

[Crom]

I think most people would agree that LiFe04 in series would be a great battery pack for the Regen...but it is more difficult to find a suitable battery supply (batterypack with charger) with these batteries. If you know were to find it or have a suitable solution with LiFeP04´s please do post some pictures and links on this thread.

 

I would also be very interested to know if someone have used Ultracapacitors in combination with batteries to power a USB Regen.

 

Apologies - I was talking about the mRendu. However, to try to answer your Q's...

 

I have only used single lifepo4's so far. The approach that I arrived at has been to use a standard (single cell) lifepo charger with a relay circuit to switch in and out of charge mode - for ease the one I've been using is Iancanada's design for his fifo project over on DIYA. When I'm done listening I just switch into charge mode and each cell is put into charge mode. This has worked for a good while now.

 

The tricky thing here is that when you have 2 cells in series I suspect that the cells need charging individually. Doesn't seem too much of an issue as we could add another relay to isolate the cells in charge-mode. However, this approach may remove some of the advantages of using the batteries in the first place by introducing components and additional junctions/joins into the circuit. I suspect that when I get around to testing this I will merely find a double battery case and then remove the cells and charge them individually.

 

Specifically on the regen, my best results have been obtained by powering the regen with a single lifepo - achieved by removing the initial regulator and directly powering the rest of the circuit with 3.3v. The 1.2v regulator remains in circuit and the 5v USB line is either 1) removed if you don't need it, 2) bridged from PC or 3) supplied externally. Thanks to JKenny for creating this recipe which I merely copied!

 

Nigel2000 has done much more work than I with batteries (not with regen though afaik) and his posts are well worth checking out.

 

Hope this helps,

Crom

[feelingears]

@ feelingears - what type of battery are you using?

Is it a lead acid or Li-Ion/LiPo and what voltage & Ah?

 

It's exactly the items in @Cornan 's post #17. (Sorry I am the office now!)

 

Briefly: There is much to like. My system seems to have the need for some extra Vitamin-Bass I guess! (Not that it's not "there" but it's not a punchy and driving as I've heard it be and that the iFi largely does provide. Just my chosen trade-off.)

[sandyk]

I would also be very interested to know if someone have used Ultracapacitors in combination with batteries to power a USB Regen.

 

That thought has crossed my mind too, but since I use a low noise shunt regulator after the voltage regulator, I decided it probably wasn't worth the trouble.

I did check ebay for suitable Ultracaps though.

[feelingears]

It's exactly the items in @Cornan 's post #17. (Sorry I am the office now!)

 

Briefly: There is much to like. My system seems to have the need for some extra Vitamin-Bass I guess! (Not that it's not "there" but it's not a punchy and driving as I've heard it be and that the iFi largely does provide. Just my chosen trade-off.)

 

Sorry--just to clarify and stay on topic, my comments are about using the battery suggested in post 17 with Sonore's microRendu, not with a Regen. I am going to listen to that battery with the Regen in my headphone and office mini-system next. Given my experience with the Regen in those systems, I am expecting a notable improvement over the Mean Well SMPS.

[Cornan]

Apologies - I was talking about the mRendu. However, to try to answer your Q's...

 

I have only used single lifepo4's so far. The approach that I arrived at has been to use a standard (single cell) lifepo charger with a relay circuit to switch in and out of charge mode - for ease the one I've been using is Iancanada's design for his fifo project over on DIYA. When I'm done listening I just switch into charge mode and each cell is put into charge mode. This has worked for a good while now.

 

The tricky thing here is that when you have 2 cells in series I suspect that the cells need charging individually. Doesn't seem too much of an issue as we could add another relay to isolate the cells in charge-mode. However, this approach may remove some of the advantages of using the batteries in the first place by introducing components and additional junctions/joins into the circuit. I suspect that when I get around to testing this I will merely find a double battery case and then remove the cells and charge them individually.

 

Specifically on the regen, my best results have been obtained by powering the regen with a single lifepo - achieved by removing the initial regulator and directly powering the rest of the circuit with 3.3v. The 1.2v regulator remains in circuit and the 5v USB line is either 1) removed if you don't need it, 2) bridged from PC or 3) supplied externally. Thanks to JKenny for creating this recipe which I merely copied!

 

Nigel2000 has done much more work than I with batteries (not with regen though afaik) and his posts are well worth checking out.

 

Hope this helps,

Crom

Thanks for sharing Crom!

I have read about JKenny battery tweak of course but never wanted to violate the warranty of my own Regen.

[Cornan]

Sorry--just to clarify and stay on topic, my comments are about using the battery suggested in post 17 with Sonore's microRendu, not with a Regen. I am going to listen to that battery with the Regen in my headphone and office mini-system next. Given my experience with the Regen in those systems, I am expecting a notable improvement over the Mean Well SMPS.

Even if Regen and microRendu have some things in common it is a different animal all together that requires a different power solution. You will need to consider a carefully constructed & powerful battery solution. LPS-1 with a battery supply (that only power the Ultracaps without back-door noises from the mains) could potentially be a really good solution for the microRendu.

[Cornan]

That thought has crossed my mind too, but since I use a low noise shunt regulator after the voltage regulator, I decided it probably wasn't worth the trouble.

I did check ebay for suitable Ultracaps though.

 

Hi Alex,

I have checked for Ultracapacitors on ebay as well. A lot out there. I also found this link of a 9v battery with 10F Supercaps SuperCap 9V battery | Hackaday. This will ofcourse not be a good match for the Regen as is...but it is an interesting idea if used with step-down linear voltage regulators & Ultracapacitors with higher specs. Maybe something that will see more of in the future?

[asdf1000]

You are welcome feelingears!

IME battery power will always be more laid back and smoother than a good SMPS and LPS...but will gain in transparency and a lower noise floor. You will need some time to adjust your ears to the "new sound" with battery supply. However, it also highly depends on your setup. My sound have become a lot more "punchier" and dynamic than it was initially. This could partly be due to burn-in (could´nt be too sure though) and partly due to a change of USB cables (Elijah Audio Konvertible Lite), no 5v, GND wires on a distance plus Sbooster Vbus2 isolator both before and after USB Regen and external grounding of my battery supply (Entreq Minimus).

Anyway, I would recommend you to give it a "burn-in" and see if you will get use to the new sound.

 

Hi @feelingears and @Cornan

 

Just wondering how you went with the "Lithium Ion Battery 7.4V 4400mAh (2S2P) with PCM and Charger "after "settling in" period?

 

Did you end up still preferring the iFi 9V iPower?

 

I just discovered this thread and found it very interesting, for my microRendu

[feelingears]

Hi @feelingears and @Cornan

 

Just wondering how you went with the "Lithium Ion Battery 7.4V 4400mAh (2S2P) with PCM and Charger "after "settling in" period?

 

Did you end up still preferring the iFi 9V iPower?

 

I just discovered this thread and found it very interesting, for my microRendu

 

 

Hey,

I'm sorry to report that I have used the battery with the Regen in my office system but haven't really given it any comparative listening, choosing to let the sound "grow" on me as has been suggested. I can report that listening now is much less tinnitus-inducing and that I can listen for noticeably longer periods without fatigue; however, this may be due in large part to new equipment (Audio-GD DAC-19 Annie and Senn HD-600 vs. Schiit Modi Uber and Grado GH-1). Since the battery was only $50 including the charger, I'm generally happy. (I also have a second unit if anyone really wants to buy it for $30 or so.)

 

And, I still use iFi for my microRendu as I think I prefer a more "crisp" or driving bass sound (relative to the battery) on my speaker rig. I am a little indecisive with power there because it seems to me we may have Ethernet (AOIP) DACs sooner rather than later, and I'd hate to see an investment in a JS-2 (which is what would fit my current setup perfectly) obviated so quickly.

 

I do plan to do some comparative listening this weekend. I'll try to use the battery pack with the microRendu again just for fun.

[Cornan]

Hi @feelingears and @Cornan

 

Just wondering how you went with the "Lithium Ion Battery 7.4V 4400mAh (2S2P) with PCM and Charger "after "settling in" period?

 

Did you end up still preferring the iFi 9V iPower?

 

I just discovered this thread and found it very interesting, for my microRendu

 

Hi Em2016!

This is a question for @feelingears only since I am not using a microRendu and have never listen to iFi iPower.

I personally use battery supplies to power my Aries Mini and Regen. I have only one device powered from the mains (DAC/HPA/PRE) while listen to headphones, 5g wifi connection to my Aries (=galvantic isolated), no 5v in USB and no GND in USB after handshake...and that is the point were the real magic starts with battery supply.

 

What I am trying to say is that battery needs a bit of planning and preferly a simple setup to perform. If you add a battery to microRendu you might want to add battery elsewere plus cutting USB power (depending on setup) as well to limit the mains power influences.

 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[asdf1000]

Hey,

I'm sorry to report that I have used the battery with the Regen in my office system but haven't really given it any comparative listening, choosing to let the sound "grow" on me as has been suggested. I can report that listening now is much less tinnitus-inducing and that I can listen for noticeably longer periods without fatigue; however, this may be due in large part to new equipment (Audio-GD DAC-19 Annie and Senn HD-600 vs. Schiit Modi Uber and Grado GH-1). Since the battery was only $50 including the charger, I'm generally happy. (I also have a second unit if anyone really wants to buy it for $30 or so.)

 

And, I still use iFi for my microRendu as I think I prefer a more "crisp" or driving bass sound (relative to the battery) on my speaker rig. I am a little indecisive with power there because it seems to me we may have Ethernet (AOIP) DACs sooner rather than later, and I'd hate to see an investment in a JS-2 (which is what would fit my current setup perfectly) obviated so quickly.

 

I do plan to do some comparative listening this weekend. I'll try to use the battery pack with the microRendu again just for fun.

 

"tinnitus-inducing" made me chuckle. Was it the battery pack (before burn in) or the iFi power supply that was tinnitus-inducing with the Regen, initially?

 

Yeh thanks, I'd be interested in your thoughts after you've had a good chance to compare the iFI and the battery pack, with the microrendu :-) This was a clever little idea I thought @Cornan

[asdf1000]

Hi Em2016!

This is a question for @feelingears only since I am not using a microRendu and have never listen to iFi iPower.

I personally use battery supplies to power my Aries Mini and Regen. I have only one device powered from the mains (DAC/HPA/PRE) while listen to headphones, 5g wifi connection to my Aries (=galvantic isolated), no 5v in USB and no GND in USB after handshake...and that is the point were the real magic starts with battery supply.

 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Computer Audiophile mobile app

 

No problem @Cornan. I just mentioned to @feelingears that this battery pack idea was clever! It has me interested :-)

[feelingears]

Hi Em2016!

This is a question for @feelingears only since I am not using a microRendu and have never listen to iFi iPower.

I personally use battery supplies to power my Aries Mini and Regen. I have only one device powered from the mains (DAC/HPA/PRE) while listen to headphones, 5g wifi connection to my Aries (=galvantic isolated), no 5v in USB and no GND in USB after handshake...and that is the point were the real magic starts with battery supply.

@Cornan That is the kind of post that makes me want to keep tweaking with this stuff! But I must resist... Kenny Barron's fabulous recent recordings are being neglected even though I do love my test tracks.

[feelingears]

"tinnitus-inducing" made me chuckle. Was it the battery pack (before burn in) or the iFi power supply that was tinnitus-inducing with the Regen, initially?

 

Oh, I apologize if my post implied that! Headphone listening has always been love/hate for me, and the new setup with HD-600 cans seems to have helped a lot. I wouldn't say power is either the problem or solution! Audiophilia or whatever we call this hobby is, ha ha!

[Cornan]

@Cornan That is the kind of post that makes me want to keep tweaking with this stuff! But I must resist... Kenny Barron's fabulous recent recordings are being neglected even though I do love my test tracks.

I hear you! :-) That is one of the reason why I have moved from a complicated pc setup to a managable streamer setup...dreaming of an Auralic Altair or similar in the end.

Music first is my key word...and too much tweaking tend to limit that hobby to pure audio testing 90% of the time. However, now I am were I want to be while saving up for a streamer/DAC/HPA/PRE (maybe with a wireless AOIP connection in the future?)!

 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[Cornan]

Just want add the importance of removing the charger from the mains alltogether when using a battery supply. IME removing the DC plug only and leaving the charger connected in the power filter together with your other audio gears is not enough. Using a separate power strip with a built in power switch connected to the mains power filter for all chargers make it flexible and improves the sound quite a bit. Just flip the power switch to OFF and enjoy! :-)

 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[feelingears]

"tinnitus-inducing" made me chuckle. Was it the battery pack (before burn in) or the iFi power supply that was tinnitus-inducing with the Regen, initially?

 

Yeh thanks, I'd be interested in your thoughts after you've had a good chance to compare the iFI and the battery pack, with the microrendu :-) This was a clever little idea I thought @Cornan

@Em2016 Don't wait up for this... Life happens, and while I did put in some good hours this weekend, it was mainly to determine if there was a reason to keep an Audio-GD DAC-19 (10th) over the new Schiit Modi 2 MB. (Short answer for me: Yes--smoother, more analog sound. Worth $x2? "Maybe" to "no," depending on your system's character.)

 

As for the battery, well, I just don't know if I'm going to prioritize it as serious matters have come up.

 

I will just say that in my tinkering I would advise one to just wait for the LPS of your budget to come up and just go with that. @Cornan likely will disagree but he clearly has a setup optimized for electrical isolation/grounding. From reading here and tinkering, it seems this stuff all adds up so if you're going that route then go all in as that appears to pay. But only if you're all in, it seems.

 

Enjoy!

[asdf1000]

@Em2016 Don't wait up for this... Life happens, and while I did put in some good hours this weekend, it was mainly to determine if there was a reason to keep an Audio-GD DAC-19 (10th) over the new Schiit Modi 2 MB. (Short answer for me: Yes--smoother, more analog sound. Worth $x2? "Maybe" to "no," depending on your system's character.)

 

As for the battery, well, I just don't know if I'm going to prioritize it as serious matters have come up.

 

I will just say that in my tinkering I would advise one to just wait for the LPS of your budget to come up and just go with that. @Cornan likely will disagree but he clearly has a setup optimized for electrical isolation/grounding. From reading here and tinkering, it seems this stuff all adds up so if you're going that route then go all in as that appears to pay. But only if you're all in, it seems.

 

Enjoy!

 

Not a problem @feelingears - thanks for sharing your observations. Wishing you well so you can get back to more listening later !

[Cornan]

@Em2016 Don't wait up for this... Life happens, and while I did put in some good hours this weekend, it was mainly to determine if there was a reason to keep an Audio-GD DAC-19 (10th) over the new Schiit Modi 2 MB. (Short answer for me: Yes--smoother, more analog sound. Worth $x2? "Maybe" to "no," depending on your system's character.)

 

As for the battery, well, I just don't know if I'm going to prioritize it as serious matters have come up.

 

I will just say that in my tinkering I would advise one to just wait for the LPS of your budget to come up and just go with that. @Cornan likely will disagree but he clearly has a setup optimized for electrical isolation/grounding. From reading here and tinkering, it seems this stuff all adds up so if you're going that route then go all in as that appears to pay. But only if you're all in, it seems.

 

Enjoy!

 

I do agree @feelingears!

Choosing the battery path is not an option just to change a single LPS/SMPS (DC) to battery. IMO it is about changing all LPS/SMPS to battery...leaving only AC mains connected devices in the audio chain. Also taking good care of the mains power and grounding is essential for best results as well as ensuring proper galvanic isolation of USB and Ethernet.

 

I am using no 5v or GND in my USB wires (unshielded). Galvanic isolated Router input plus strong 5G wireless connection to Aries Mini & BubbleDS Next control point (ie. 100% galvanic isolated). Only one device (DAC/HPA/PRE) connected to mains...remaining devices (Aries Mini and Regen) is connected to battery supplies. External grounding of DAC/HPA/PRE and Aries Mini. Sounds awesome!