Sonore Signature Series Rendu - SPDIF/i2s

[firedog]

34 minutes ago, Albrecht said:

Hi,

I want to humbly add a +1 here, - or at the very least ask if there are plans to make a SPDIF output microRendu with John's really great I/O board with built in isolation?

Likely I will buy an ultraRendu, but if there were going to be an ultra-SPFID-Rendu, - I would wait.

This is all exciting, - can't wait to see it!

 

Sonore had the Rendu and Signature Rendu, which were discontinued. Maybe  they still have a Signature Rendu available you could buy.

[jventer]

12 hours ago, firedog said:

Sonore had the Rendu and Signature Rendu, which were discontinued. Maybe  they still have a Signature Rendu available you could buy.

Yes, but the price?

[firedog]

3 hours ago, jventer said:

Yes, but the price?

The signature wasn't cheap, as you might expect, but it was the "signature"....

[BigAlMc]

16 hours ago, firedog said:

The signature wasn't cheap, as you might expect, but it was the "signature"....

 

When I looked into buying the Signature Rendu (I was interested in the I2S output) Adrian at Sonore recommended the Microrendu and the Sonore Signature power supply as offering better SQ - albeit via USB. 

 

I ended up going with the Microrendu and Uptone LPS-1. I then added the Singxer SU-1 to convert the USB to I2S (it also does SPDif) and found the combination to produce great results. As have many others. 

 

I'm now in the process of adding an LPS-1 to the SU-1 as well. So the costs can mount quickly. But I'm very happy with the current SQ and hopefully the LPS-1 cranks it up a bit further. 

 

A second hand Signature Rendu might be a cheaper option, assuming the good folks at Sonore have no immediate plans to offer SPDif again. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

[jventer]

On 5/17/2017 at 7:19 PM, BigAlMc said:

 

When I looked into buying the Signature Rendu (I was interested in the I2S output) Adrian at Sonore recommended the Microrendu and the Sonore Signature power supply as offering better SQ - albeit via USB. 

 

I ended up going with the Microrendu and Uptone LPS-1. I then added the Singxer SU-1 to convert the USB to I2S (it also does SPDif) and found the combination to produce great results. As have many others. 

 

I'm now in the process of adding an LPS-1 to the SU-1 as well. So the costs can mount quickly. But I'm very happy with the current SQ and hopefully the LPS-1 cranks it up a bit further. 

 

A second hand Signature Rendu might be a cheaper option, assuming the good folks at Sonore have no immediate plans to offer SPDif again. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

Thanks for this. I am still on mac mini with Audiophilleo (with a dac that does not have usb) and wish to upgrade to something better and external power supplies. Might go for the Singxer F1 as the SU -1 needs better power anyway.

[Cooler]

Interesting, but ive expected to see new mR 2 with I2S output, or for at least, usb + I2S outputs. Seems like usb is not the best for audio and even very expensive dacs with I2S input sounds better through I2S input, compering to usb input. You also can take into consideration popularity of hydra z. I know a lot of guys who bought this converter because of I2S output, why sonore ignores this niche?!

[Nicholas_S]

2 minutes ago, Cooler said:

Interesting, but ive expected to see new mR 2 with I2S output, or for at least, usb + I2S outputs. Seems like usb is not the best for audio and even very expensive dacs with I2S input sounds better through I2S input, compering to usb input. You also can take into consideration popularity of hydra z. I know a lot of guys who bought this converter because of I2S output, why sonore ignores this niche?!

 

Just guessing but maybe the niche is too small to justify the effort?

[Cooler]

Well all modern dacs come with I2S, even now there are usb limitations comparing to I2S.

Check new matrix x dac, DSD1024 via I2S only, my dac (gustard a20h) DSD512 via I2S only. 8000 euro rockna dac sounds much better via I2S, you can find many other devices with the same situation I2S beats usb.

Moreover, check gustard u12, hydra z, singxer su-1 etc, they are all with I2S. Of course i understand, sometimes less is better, and i chose mR and happy with it, but i would buy sonore device again if they provide more then just another ethernet to usb converter and it is stupid to ignore other gamers on the market and global DSD trend in audio. It is my imho though.

[vortecjr]

25 minutes ago, Cooler said:

Interesting, but ive expected to see new mR 2 with I2S output, or for at least, usb + I2S outputs. Seems like usb is not the best for audio and even very expensive dacs with I2S input sounds better through I2S input, compering to usb input. You also can take into consideration popularity of hydra z. I know a lot of guys who bought this converter because of I2S output, why sonore ignores this niche?!

I like LVDS i2s and have included it in a few products. However, those products have not sold very well. At the end of day the Hydra Z and others like it are USB to i2s. Adding i2s would add a lot to the design of the microRendu and ultraRendu that would go waisted if you do not have an i2s DAC. Remember the microRendu and ultraRendu are exercises in simplicity. It makes sense to have i2s in a larger more expensive devices where the cost would be spread out if we included along with it a SPDIF and AES/EBU output. I have an idea for something along the way of this, but it's going to take a ton of development to make it a reality...no promises at the point.      

[Cooler]

13 hours ago, vortecjr said:

I like LVDS i2s and have included it in a few products. However, those products have not sold very well. At the end of day the Hydra Z and others like it are USB to i2s. Adding i2s would add a lot to the design of the microRendu and ultraRendu that would go waisted if you do not have an i2s DAC. Remember the microRendu and ultraRendu are exercises in simplicity. It makes sense to have i2s in a larger more expensive devices where the cost would be spread out if we included along with it a SPDIF and AES/EBU output. I have an idea for something along the way of this, but it's going to take a ton of development to make it a reality...no promises at the point.      

Yes, they are USB to i2s, and there is no ethernet to i2s converter on the market or i didnt hear about that device. Now if you want get out all from the modern dac (with i2s input) you need ethernet to usb device and usb to i2s device, thats not only really expensive, but also to many conversions and connections, 2 PSU, additional cables etc. Why not to create new microRendu ethernet to i2s device, small and simple, it could be a new product and with global trend it should be very popular, especially if you would not leave $1000 price range.

 

I understand, that you have clearer picture, what people want and how to do your business, but just check the recent dacs market and the potential to sell that new device.

ps. i would definitely buy ethernet to i2s mR (with Roon Ready and HQ NAA of course)

[T-Bone]

16 hours ago, Cooler said:

ive expected to see new mR 2 with I2S output, or for at least, usb + I2S outputs. Seems like usb is not the best for audio and even very expensive dacs with I2S input sounds better through I2S input, compering to usb input. 

 

As the owner of a Holo Spring DAC; I can confirm that I2S input outperformed the other inputs.  I am very interested in the microRendu platform, but the absence of an I2S output has kept me from spending my money.

 

...alternatively, you could also say that what I really want is a Singxer SU-1 with an Ethernet input!  

 

A microRendu with an I2S output would allow me to simplify my audio chain. 

[miguelito]

4 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

A microRendu with an I2S output would allow me to simplify my audio chain. 

How many people actually have an i2s input... and how many forms of this input are there? I think you're asking for a very niche option that would greatly increase the cost. Would make a lot more sense for the Singxer to actually include an Ethernet port.

[pl_svn]

2 minutes ago, miguelito said:

How many people actually have an i2s input...

 

I was looking exactly at the Holo Spring a few minutes ago

[JohnSwenson]

5 hours ago, Cooler said:

Yes, they are USB to i2s, and there is no ethernet to i2s converter on the market or i didnt hear about that device. Now if you want get out all from the modern dac (with i2s input) you need ethernet to usb device and usb to i2s device, thats not only really expensive, but also to many conversions and connections, 2 PSU, additional cables etc. Why not to create new microRendu ethernet to i2s device, small and simple, it could be a new product and with global trend it should be very popular, especially if you would not leave $1000 price range.

 

I understand, that you have clearer picture, what people want and how to do your business, but just check the recent dacs market and the potential to sell that new device.

ps. i would definitely buy ethernet to i2s mR (with Roon Ready and HQ NAA of course)

There are some major technical issues with this. The processor in the micr/ultraRendu was chosen because it lets the USB subsystem be powered and clocked separately from the rest of the processor. That particular processor can only do I2S up to 192, and CANNOT to DSD over the I2S wires (other than DoP). Note that the the I2S spec has absolutely nothing to do with DSD. There are a few DACs and DDCs that multiplex in the DSD signals onto the same wires used for I2S, but it is NOT I2S.

 

If you are willing to live with the 192 maximum and no DSD, then it COULD output I2S, but then you will degrade the performance of the USB output. If you optimize USB, you get less than great I2S, if you optimize I2S you get less than gret USB (or you can get less than great both).

 

There are some ways to do both USB and I2S and do both very well, but they are neither simple nor cheap. There would be long development time and the end result would be expensive. Even just a Ethernet to VERY good I2S is not easy at all. None of the processors have an I2S block that will do it, it will take something like a processor interfaced to an FPGA to do it properly, with a hole bunch of other stuff in there to keep the processor from messing up the I2S timing. Again complex and expensive.

 

The reason you see it in USB input DDCs is that XMOS has USB audio code that does I2s and DSD over I2S wires. That makes it easy to do. There is nothing equivalent for something that can do Ethernet and support the various different Ethernet audio Protocols.

 

At this point the best way to do this is Ethernet to USB, to DDC to I2S. Anything else "simpler" is going to take a long time to come to fruition and cost a lot.

 

John S.

[Cooler]

Thank you John for detailed explanation. But if you recall, sonore already did this product, original sonore signature rendu. It had i2s output. Maybe it came to early, at that time there were only few dacs with i2s input and also, it costed $2.8k, what is really expansive for streamer. I understand that it contained great PSU, but it is very niche product. They changed strategy, now we have affordable mR and expensive PSU, together it is close to 2.8k. So im sure they can do that.

[lmitche]

7 hours ago, Cooler said:

Thank you John for detailed explanation. But if you recall, sonore already did this product, original sonore signature rendu. It had i2s output. Maybe it came to early, at that time there were only few dacs with i2s input and also, it costed $2.8k, what is really expansive for streamer. I understand that it contained great PSU, but it is very niche product. They changed strategy, now we have affordable mR and expensive PSU, together it is close to 2.8k. So im sure they can do that.

Cooler, as I remember John was the primary engineer of the Sonore Signature Rendu.

[Cooler]

5 hours ago, lmitche said:

Cooler, as I remember John was the primary engineer of the Sonore Signature Rendu.

Wow, i didnt know that. Ok now its clear why he explained all complexity so detailed.

[vortecjr]

I moved the i2s discussion into the Signature Rendu thread:

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/28011-signature-series-rendu-discussion-and-experiences/

 

[vortecjr]

We could make a small batch of these if people really want them and we can update the design to support 384 PCM and DSD 256 native via DLNA. However, there are limitations. You can forget about DSD512, and NAA support. These are DLNA only. We have an APP (SonoreUPnP Bridge) that allows you to use Roon with this device, but again there are some limitations and you can only stream DSD 64 with it.   

[JohnSwenson]

17 hours ago, Cooler said:

Thank you John for detailed explanation. But if you recall, sonore already did this product, original sonore signature rendu. It had i2s output. Maybe it came to early, at that time there were only few dacs with i2s input and also, it costed $2.8k, what is really expansive for streamer. I understand that it contained great PSU, but it is very niche product. They changed strategy, now we have affordable mR and expensive PSU, together it is close to 2.8k. So im sure they can do that.

That product was a custom implementation using very expensive programmable DSP processors. The programmers spent a LARGE amount of time programming these to do the I2S, DSD and S/PDIF outputs.

 

But from todays perspective they are rather limited, they don't cover the higher sample/DSD rates and only support UpNP/DLNA. It's not possible to improve these with this hardware.

 

This actually proves my point, that general purpose processors out there do not have built in support for this, it takes custom special purpose hardware and a LOT of development time to implement it.

 

John S.

[Speed Racer]

3 hours ago, vortecjr said:

This is a very focused hardware project. We are trying to make something simple, elegant and to the point. On the software side our App Switcher allows you to try different output protocols as if each was the only one running on the unit. S/PDIF, AES/EBU, and i2s adds complexity and compromises the design goals of this project so they have been intentionally left out.

 

Okay. But the worst input on most DACs is the USB input even with a very clean USB signal. If one of the goals is great sounding music, how could support for S/PDIF or AES/EBU compromise design goals and why wouldn't you want to have the best sound quality possible. You cater to the most common interface only and ignore those that have products with far better input options. Until there is the ability to use AES/EBU, your product is not an option for me...and for many other people like me.

[vortecjr]

7 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

 

Okay. But the worst input on most DACs is the USB input even with a very clean USB signal. If one of the goals is great sounding music, how could support for S/PDIF or AES/EBU compromise design goals and why wouldn't you want to have the best sound quality possible. You cater to the most common interface only and ignore those that have products with far better input options. Until there is the ability to use AES/EBU, your product is not an option for me...and for many other people like me.

Where were you when we made the Rendu and the Signature Rendu:) Your preferred interface actually came first in the series and they were discontinued due to lack of interest.

[firedog]

17 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

 

Okay. But the worst input on most DACs is the USB input even with a very clean USB signal. If one of the goals is great sounding music, how could support for S/PDIF or AES/EBU compromise design goals and why wouldn't you want to have the best sound quality possible. You cater to the most common interface only and ignore those that have products with far better input options. Until there is the ability to use AES/EBU, your product is not an option for me...and for many other people like me.

Jesus has already explained that having more inputs greatly complicates the design and compromises the SQ - unless you want to build something super expensive.

"Better" is only your opinion - not fact. Sonore is running a business where they are trying to make money - not build expensive products with too small a market to leave them profit. 

True, it isn't an option for YOU. For thousands of others it is the preferred option. The solution is simple: buy a different product from a different company that meets your needs. It might sound better than an ultra or micro Rendu connected to your DAC.

On the other hand it might not...

[Speed Racer]

Oh, I am sorry. I didn't know you were put here to tell me what I can and cannot suggest or comment on.

 

It's fairly well accepted that the USB interface is the worst interface on most DACs. The only way you would not know that is if you are living under a rock somewhere. So using some other interface, such as AES/EBU, would certainly be an improvement.

 

Please let vortecjr that, thanks to you, I have officially removed all Sonore products from my list of possible solutions.

 

Adios! 

[firedog]

2 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

 

Oh, I am sorry. I didn't know you were put here to tell me what I can and cannot suggest or comment on.

 

It's fairly well accepted that the USB interface is the worst interface on most DACs. The only way you would not know that is if you are living under a rock somewhere.

 

No one was trying to tell you what you can or can't comment on. Comment on whatever you want and however you want. But don't expect your uninformed whining (about an issue which Jesus already explained clearly) - why the mRendu is only USB - to be free from any response. Sounds like you can't take any disagreement or criticism and are the one interested in censorship. 

 

You have

Quote

officially

removed Sonore products from your possible solutions b/c of me?
 

1) That's silly and childish on it's own, but especially so b/c I'm not connected with Sonore; 2)Bullshi*t. Get real - you've already made it clear that you aren't interested in the USB interface - so you weren't going to buy their products anyway. Don't bring me into the picture. 

 

The other stuff you wrote is unsubstantiated audiophile nonsense. "Fairly well accepted" - by whom? Have you done scientific polling of knowledgeable users/listeners/manufacturers? 
 

"Most DACs" - a meaningless generalization. Which ones? DACs from 10 years ago? 5 years ago? DACs that don't have USB and only accept input up to 24/96? DACs that have old, outmoded USB interfaces that are no longer in production? DACs that don't accept DSD input because they aren't USB?  Or newer DACs specifically designed to sound good with USB? How about all the "only USB" DACs that now exist? Do they also sound better with other interfaces-the one's they don't have?