Equipment hierarchy - what's the best upgrade path?

[bluesman]

Probably the 'game changer' of the lot was changing the wall outlets

Fascinating! I never gave this much thought, as we designed and built our house with top quality everywhere. I had a pair of dedicated 20 amp lines run to the wall behind a floor-to-ceiling built in rack with cabinetry, each feeding industrial outlets. And I unplugged every cable of any kind from its receptacle at least once a year and cleaned all the contacts.

 

Now that we've moved to an apartment, I'm learning about things like cheap wall outlets that have been thickly painted and trap pieces of hardened paint between blades and claws when you finally break off enough paint to seat the plug. Although I can no longer play through speakers at "reasonable" SPLs, I'm re-kindling my love affair with headphones, so I'm even more sensitive to problems and changes now. I'm going to invest in good duplex receptacles for the systems in the living room and the den, and will report back.

 

The prior owner had the apartment completely redone within months of our buying it in 2001 - my mother-in-law lived in it until she passed away about 16 months ago, and we knew it would be time for us to downsize when she no longer needed the place. The renovations embraced excellence where the prior owner recognized it (e.g. St Charles kitchen, marble bathrooms & showers, good hardwood floors throughout) - and somehow, top grade copper wiring and pipes made the cut even though they used cheap contractor-grade outlets. The building engineer told me that ours is the only apartment he knows of that's been redone with proper subpanels, wiring and plumbing. The rest of those that have been updated were apparently done on the cheap, many with aluminum wires and PVC pipe. So if I replace the paint-caked cheapo outlets with good ones like you used, I'll probably have cleaner, more consistent power with less interference. I'm not unhappy with my sound quality now - but I wouldn't be against improvement.

[OldBigEars]

Fascinating! I never gave this much thought, as we designed and built our house with top quality everywhere. I had a pair of dedicated 20 amp lines run to the wall behind a floor-to-ceiling built in rack with cabinetry, each feeding industrial outlets. And I unplugged every cable of any kind from its receptacle at least once a year and cleaned all the contacts.

 

Now that we've moved to an apartment, I'm learning about things like cheap wall outlets that have been thickly painted and trap pieces of hardened paint between blades and claws when you finally break off enough paint to seat the plug. Although I can no longer play through speakers at "reasonable" SPLs, I'm re-kindling my love affair with headphones, so I'm even more sensitive to problems and changes now. I'm going to invest in good duplex receptacles for the systems in the living room and the den, and will report back.

 

The prior owner had the apartment completely redone within months of our buying it in 2001 - my mother-in-law lived in it until she passed away about 16 months ago, and we knew it would be time for us to downsize when she no longer needed the place. The renovations embraced excellence where the prior owner recognized it (e.g. St Charles kitchen, marble bathrooms & showers, good hardwood floors throughout) - and somehow, top grade copper wiring and pipes made the cut even though they used cheap contractor-grade outlets. The building engineer told me that ours is the only apartment he knows of that's been redone with proper subpanels, wiring and plumbing. The rest of those that have been updated were apparently done on the cheap, many with aluminum wires and PVC pipe. So if I replace the paint-caked cheapo outlets with good ones like you used, I'll probably have cleaner, more consistent power with less interference. I'm not unhappy with my sound quality now - but I wouldn't be against improvement.

 

Bluesman, I did quite a bit of research and went for Maestro. Hooked it up in minutes and it transformed my sound quality. It actually made me chuckle, the difference it made. Some people on CA have, for whatever reason, tried to kindly explain that this is impossible etc etc. Or that my previous outlet must have been completely shot. Not true. It appeared to be working quite normally and looked OK, but probably cost $0.50 when it was installed 30 years ago. If you have any doubts whatsoever about your outlets, my reco would be to do this upgrade before spending a dime on anything else.

[Jud]

Next step will probably cost more. I'll check out DAC upgrades. I'm not especially keen on this direction as we all know how fast-moving the category is. I'm not fond of buying stuff that's obsolete within a year. The dream-speaker route is definitely on my mind....just need to hear the improvements over my Linn's, that have never sounded better, thanks to the new USB cables etc.

 

Many thanks for everyone's input and advice.

 

I would suggest considering a DAC that will allow its internal upsampling and filtering to be replaced by software upsampling and filtering - i.e., that will accept 24/384 PCM, DSD128 input or higher. Then obsolescence doesn't depend on what's in the box; new capabilities are as easy as a software update.

[bluesman]

It appeared to be working quite normally

"Working quite normally" implies conducting electricity from socket connectors to plug connectors as though there were a solid wire between the two. You can't know that without static & longitudinal measurements of signal parameters. Even pure 60Hz sinusoidal line power is a signal that will spurt from your speakers at least once in your lifetime as an audiophile.

 

There are multiple interfaces in the path from the Romex in your walls to the power cables on your equipment. Even the surfaces of male prong and female claw are not solidly joined. They're separated by layer upon layer of stuff, from oxides of the component metals to oils from handling them to foreign material like paint and airborne dirt. The resistance, capacitance, reactance (both inductive and capacitive), etc of each plug-and-socket assembly act as another component in the circuit, so I can understand how this might affect audio output (although I'll have to hear it myself to accept that it justifies attention).

 

I never gave it much thought before, and I'm still not sure how the magnitudes of the above parameters could possibly affect sound quality. The variation inside line plugs and sockets is horrifying - some really cheap ones seem to have little more than metallic foil conducting current. And I've found some equipment plugs to be very warm to the touch, which suggests inadequate conductor for the load. It's not preposterous to suggest that this might make a difference.

[sphinxsix]

I would suggest considering a DAC that will allow its internal upsampling and filtering to be replaced by software upsampling and filtering - i.e., that will accept 24/384 PCM, DSD128 input or higher. Then obsolescence doesn't depend on what's in the box; new capabilities are as easy as a software update.

 

I do agree in 100%. Probably by accident but I've never heard an upsampling DAC or a CD player that wouldn't sound at least good considering its price range. That includes $2000 Chinese (!) player (I don't recall the brand) which had 2 analogue stages to choose from, a transistor and triode ones and in a triode mode sounded marvellous! In fact so good that I wanted to buy it from a friend of mine who used it in his all-tubes and analogue recording studio. I won't even mention the sound of let's say DCS or DPA upsampling DACs.

By the way I have some reflections on your previous post, Jud but will comment on it when I find some more time.

[mansr]

"Working quite normally" implies conducting electricity from socket connectors to plug connectors as though there were a solid wire between the two. You can't know that without static & longitudinal measurements of signal parameters. Even pure 60Hz sinusoidal line power is a signal that will spurt from your speakers at least once in your lifetime as an audiophile.

 

There are multiple interfaces in the path from the Romex in your walls to the power cables on your equipment. Even the surfaces of male prong and female claw are not solidly joined. They're separated by layer upon layer of stuff, from oxides of the component metals to oils from handling them to foreign material like paint and airborne dirt. The resistance, capacitance, reactance (both inductive and capacitive), etc of each plug-and-socket assembly act as another component in the circuit, so I can understand how this might affect audio output (although I'll have to hear it myself to accept that it justifies attention).

 

Even cheap sockets are designed to wipe/scrape gunk off the prongs to form a reliable connection. The contact pressure then prevents anything nasty creeping in and disturbing it. Should it nevertheless go bad, a simple reseating will fix it. That said, it is of course possible to make a socket so terrible as to be generally unreliable (and this would cause a simple light bulb to dim or flicker), but a decent one still should not cost more than a few dollars.

 

I never gave it much thought before, and I'm still not sure how the magnitudes of the above parameters could possibly affect sound quality. The variation inside line plugs and sockets is horrifying - some really cheap ones seem to have little more than metallic foil conducting current. And I've found some equipment plugs to be very warm to the touch, which suggests inadequate conductor for the load. It's not preposterous to suggest that this might make a difference.

 

Power conductors or connectors getting warm would have me worried, but only due to the fire hazard.

[kennyb123]

I never gave it much thought before, and I'm still not sure how the magnitudes of the above parameters could possibly affect sound quality. The variation inside line plugs and sockets is horrifying - some really cheap ones seem to have little more than metallic foil conducting current. And I've found some equipment plugs to be very warm to the touch, which suggests inadequate conductor for the load. It's not preposterous to suggest that this might make a difference.

 

It's been my experience that the power cord connecting a system's power distribution unit (PDU) to the wall has a far greater impact on sound quality than any cord from the PDU to any component individually. That first cord sets the agenda for what follows in terms of dynamic transient power delivery.

 

I found the same to be true for the AC wall outlet feeding the system. The quality of that connection- both the grip and the contact materials - can set the agenda for how well that first cord performs in terms of transient current delivery.

 

To recreate the transients in music, power delivery needs to be instantaneous. Anything that can dull that will rob life from the music. Taking steps like a better AC outlet can facilitate dynamic transient current transfer and can make the music come more to life. One doesn't have to spend much to hear this. Probably the most cost effective audio accessory out there.

[OldBigEars]

"Working quite normally" implies conducting electricity from socket connectors to plug connectors as though there were a solid wire between the two. You can't know that without static & longitudinal measurements of signal parameters. Even pure 60Hz sinusoidal line power is a signal that will spurt from your speakers at least once in your lifetime as an audiophile.

 

There are multiple interfaces in the path from the Romex in your walls to the power cables on your equipment. Even the surfaces of male prong and female claw are not solidly joined. They're separated by layer upon layer of stuff, from oxides of the component metals to oils from handling them to foreign material like paint and airborne dirt. The resistance, capacitance, reactance (both inductive and capacitive), etc of each plug-and-socket assembly act as another component in the circuit, so I can understand how this might affect audio output (although I'll have to hear it myself to accept that it justifies attention).

 

I never gave it much thought before, and I'm still not sure how the magnitudes of the above parameters could possibly affect sound quality. The variation inside line plugs and sockets is horrifying - some really cheap ones seem to have little more than metallic foil conducting current. And I've found some equipment plugs to be very warm to the touch, which suggests inadequate conductor for the load. It's not preposterous to suggest that this might make a difference.

 

Whoah.....w-a-a-a-a-y over my head, I'm sorry too say. I just listen to this stuff :-)

[OldBigEars]

I would suggest considering a DAC that will allow its internal upsampling and filtering to be replaced by software upsampling and filtering - i.e., that will accept 24/384 PCM, DSD128 input or higher. Then obsolescence doesn't depend on what's in the box; new capabilities are as easy as a software update.

 

Thanks Jud, my Concero HD DAC has the ESS Sabre 9018 chip and allows upsampling via software to 24/384 PCM or DSD128. However I'm finding better overall results not upsampling via software - instead, using the DAC upsampling filters. Sound quality seems as good as DSM, without the CPU usage issues. It just works.

[mansr]

Thanks Jud, my Concero HD DAC has the ESS Sabre 9018 chip and allows upsampling via software to 24/384 PCM or DSD128. However I'm finding better overall results not upsampling via software - instead, using the DAC upsampling filters. Sound quality seems as good as DSM, without the CPU usage issues. It just works.

The Sabre filters DSD digitally before sending it through the same multi-bit A/D stage it uses for PCM.

[artur9]

Next step will probably cost more. I'll check out DAC upgrades. I'm not especially keen on this direction as we all know how fast-moving the category is.

 

Schiit's DACs are upgradeable and have been upgraded over time. My Bifrost got a new USB board and a new analog board. And now they've come out with a new DAC chip for it.

 

That helps to cushion the upgrade blow somewhat.

[semente]

Schiit's DACs are upgradeable and have been upgraded over time. My Bifrost got a new USB board and a new analog board. And now they've come out with a new DAC chip for it.

 

That helps to cushion the upgrade blow somewhat.

 

Or you could look at it from the opposite corner and think that if you're unable to control yourself owning Schiit products will result in an endless dripping of cash.

In the end it's your cash and your job to determine whether or not the improvement brought by those new boards is worth the cost.

We're at a stage where products have a very short lifespan, and it's very easy to get caught up by the "upgrade" spell...this happens in many hobbies, at least in those that revolve around technological gear.

[sphinxsix]

it's very easy to get caught up by the "upgrade" spell...

I agree on that!

@ BigOldEars I'm quite curious - is your upgrade progressing.?

[OldBigEars]

I agree on that!

@ BigOldEars I'm quite curious - is your upgrade progressing.?

 

Sphinxsix, my upgrading continues.....I've literally, just this weekend, pulled the trigger on buying a new set of Kudos S20 speakers, imported directly from the UK. I found an outstanding opportunity, made even sweeter with the current exchange rate.

 

The point is, my early upgrades to front end wiring had been super successful. No doubts or second thoughts about the SQ improvements or value of the changes made. I could have been 'perfectly happy' to sit tight on this plateau for a year or two, observing how DAC / source technology evolves and just enjoying my music collection.

 

My wife, most certainly, thought I was completely insane when I suggested that my trusty, gorgeous 20-year-old Linn Keilidh's should be next in line for replacement. They are going to be a tough act to follow. I very nearly bought a pair of PMC 20/23's, until I discovered the Kudos C20's in England.

 

They should be here in about a week....I'm just praying they're as good as I expect and they gell with the rest of my system. It's obviously a big risk buying any component, especially speakers, this way. Let's call it a calculated speculation...fingers are crossed.

[sphinxsix]

That kind of excitement isn't something I don't know..

Fingers crossed..

[OldBigEars]

Thank you! :-)

[Priaptor]

Thanks Jud, my Concero HD DAC has the ESS Sabre 9018 chip and allows upsampling via software to 24/384 PCM or DSD128. However I'm finding better overall results not upsampling via software - instead, using the DAC upsampling filters. Sound quality seems as good as DSM, without the CPU usage issues. It just works.

 

OBE

 

I am finally in the process of auditioning the T&A DAC8. Everything up sampled to DSD512 with HQP. I will be reporting my findings on the T&A thread but it is truly a wonderful DAC. I am comparing it to my MSB Diamond Plus. I am using slightly different settings to that recommended by EuroDriver (Ed) but this a steal at the price.

 

Howie

[esimms86]

OBE

 

I am finally in the process of auditioning the T&A DAC8. Everything up sampled to DSD512 with HQP. I will be reporting my findings on the T&A thread but it is truly a wonderful DAC. I am comparing it to my MSB Diamond Plus. I am using slightly different settings to that recommended by EuroDriver (Ed) but this a steal at the price.

 

Howie

 

I'm interested to hear your findings, especially already having a sense of some of the previous DACS you've had in your home. Given the sizeable difference in price points, however, would it be fair to compare those 2 DACS?

 

Esau

 

Esau

[artur9]

Or you could look at it from the opposite corner and think that if you're unable to control yourself owning Schiit products will result in an endless dripping of cash.

 

I am not seeing your point? My perspective is that being concerned about a digital product's obsolescence can be mitigated somewhat with Schiit's approach. That and they actually have released upgrades unlike so many other "upgradable" products.

[skyline]

That is an excellent outlet, probably the best value-for-money you can get for an outlet said to be very neutral.

 

Now, couple this with a dedicated line and give it some long time to settle, and you'll get to another level of WOW! you hadn't imagined.

 

Of course, my previous recommendations still stand: clean power, vibration isolation (Also coupled to any power filter box, and room diagnosis + organic acoustic treatment (No DSP approach, unless after the organic acoustic treatment there still remain pesky peaks or troughs).

 

With clean power comes great responsibility of using good power cables.

 

A little story:

 

I've been holding off upgrading my power conditioner as I thought it was reference.

 

But in the back of my mind I wanted to go with Vertex AQ or Entreq as they use a different approach than active power conditioners. And they address high frequency noise and magnetic fields.

 

I picked up the Entreq Powerus Challneger 3V without even an audition. It was just a blind leap of faith purchase.

 

When used with their Olympus grounding box, it's an incredible piece of kit.

 

I thought the lack of refinement and other issues were coming from my DAC. Little did I know it was the mains block.

[Priaptor]

I'm interested to hear your findings, especially already having a sense of some of the previous DACS you've had in your home. Given the sizeable difference in price points, however, would it be fair to compare those 2 DACS?

 

Esau

 

Esau

 

 

I think it will be a an interesting comparison because of the price differential. I've had it hear for awhile but just got the computer to get it's full potential with HQP. Despite having it for awhile I haven't really listened to it other than the occasional headphone listen so it is just breaking in and I "think" I have it optimized with HQP.

[semente]

I am not seeing your point? My perspective is that being concerned about a digital product's obsolescence can be mitigated somewhat with Schiit's approach. That and they actually have released upgrades unlike so many other "upgradable" products.

 

My view is that significant advances in technology are generally not compatible with existing equipment meaning and this limits the effectiveness of upgradeability, although I theory I think that it could be possible for Schiit to produce a very high quality output stage and allow for the digital section to be replaced whenever there are technological advances.

You could split the DAC into digital, analogue and PSU and design the circuits and box(es) in a way that all parts could be replaceable/updateable/upgradeable at some point (although this would be restrictive from a marketing perspective; new box designs are paramount for whetting appetites).

But whether or not this would be appealing from a comm€rcia£ p€r$p€ctiv€ only they can say.

 

R

[artur9]

My view is that significant advances in technology are generally not compatible with existing equipment meaning and this limits the effectiveness of upgradeability

 

I had similar thoughts until they came out with the Bifrost MB update. I was sure they were going to hold the MB updates for much more expensive models but, nope.

 

BTW, Thanks for the clarification and interesting spelling of comm€rcia£ p€r$p€ctiv€.

 

[ctsooner]

Interesting thread and it's always in style and has been since day one, lol. I have read many of the posts, but not all of them (sorry, takes too long). Everyone has their own opinions of course. With what I have heard over the years and in talking to many folks in the industry, I have another of the thousands of opinions I'd love to share.

 

First off if your room lacks in any way, then your sound will also. No expense in equipment can fix a room with a 50hz excitement problem. If you have suck out in the mid bass or lower mids, then you can't fix it with changing gear either. To make most rooms sound pretty good isn't difficult either unless you are in the super category of gear etc... Always remember that good bass is the most expensive part of the food chain. I always ask folks how much bass do they think they can afford and then go over options and ask again, how much bass do you WANT to afford.

 

Speak with a decent dealer and they should be able to help you 'fix' most room problems within reason. Think first reflections and diffuse them with plants around the speakers or possibly a nice looking quilt on the side walls to absorb a first reflection. Think about stacking your albums on the far wall to diffuse the sound so it doesn't bounce back. A nice rug on the floor in front of the speakers can also absorb some of the first wave of sound that you don't want. You may or may not need a bass trap or two and they can be hand made for not that much money. The biggest problem I've seen with folks paying someone to do their room is a DEAD room. Seriously, I have a lot of friends who have paid folks multi thousands of dollars to 'fix' their dedicated listening rooms and they are dead. They are never happy with their gear and can't blame it on the room anymore since they paid so much to have it fixed.

 

I personally would rather have a livelier room than a dead one. That's just me and my listening.

 

Depending on what you own and how old it is will be the next question I ask. Typically upgrading the speakers or the front end makes the most amount of sense, but not always. Often folks forget how important a pre amp is as well as the amp. Some have made tremendous upgrades for years and years and have newer speakers and newer front ends that they loved in the shop. In those cases, look at the amplification and make sure it's of the same quality.

 

Typically I see the speakers needing upgrades. For some reason speakers that are older than 7 years or so can be very outdated. Newer technology and more sensitive measuring devices have helped designers create much better speakers over the last few years. Even the trickle down to the mid fi have been great.

 

Do your manufacturer's give you a chance to upgrade your components? Ayre, Vandersteen, Mod Wright and so many others offer upgrades to their components to bring them up to date. That refresh may be exactly what someone needs.

 

This is a digital board and most of the digital has been addressed or will be, so I'll leave that alone as I'm still learning much of it, but hearing tremendous differences the more I listen to new gear. It's really amazing how far things have come. Even my analog first friends are realizing that you can get awesome and emotionally involving sound with digital now. I'm glad to have waited and am now redoing all of my own digital.

 

The last thing I personally will upgrade is my wiring and outlets. I do have to admit I was just given a pair or Audioquest outlets and will install them this week. I've heard outlets in the past and honestly, I don't know if I'd ever have changed outlets if the cost wasn't what it is and a $150 outlet is cheap for the type of system I own. I also only own 1 special power cord. In the future I'm may get new cords, but my gear already has a lot of RF and other filtering built into it's power supplies, so I don't hear much if any difference. Honestly, I was in a store a year ago and a well named manufacture brought his prototype power cords and conditioner in to hear it vs what the store had. The store plugged into their regular outlets for the most part, but had an EquiTech unit that we also used. The Equitec unit gave the music more air around the notes and didn't cut the leading or trailing edges. It gave a more realistic soundstage. We think that was probably because of the decay of the note etc.., but it was there. The Ayre gear plugged into the wall directly sounded nearly as good, but not quite. To me the upgrade to Equitec probably wasn't worth the money as I'd rather spend that upgrade on speakers or front end where I'd hear more of a difference. That's just me.

 

The 'soon to be released' cord costs $5K and the power unit is selling for around $10K last I looked. That meant $15k just for ONE piece of gear and $5K for any extra piece. The gear actually made the sound much worse. I don't know how, but it choked of all the air. It had little percussive impact lessened the leaving and trailing edges of the notes and overall it sucked compared to the other set ups. Even the maker heard the difference within the first few notes. It was THAT obvious. I pray he made changes, but I do know he's selling his stuff and making a lot from it.

 

To me, I've always just made sure I have clean connections and unplug quarterly or so and clean the plugs. I'll let you know if I hear a difference with my new power outlets. For some, it makes a big difference as folks I trust tell me it does. If may for you if you have poor power to begin with or if you have a ton of RF in your room and need to get rid of it. I spoke at length with Garth Powell about this last month and he says that everything he designs for Audioquest is about filtering the RF. He says he can make his cables directional and drain the RF I think he said back to the outlet and box. Not sure if he can, but I will say that if you have your system sounding great, you need to bring home their new Niagara strips. Their 1k unit has 1 power supply hook up and NO it does nothing to the dynamics like most power conditioners do. It also sound 95% or more of what their 7000 unit does. The more money you pay, the more power outlets you get (do you have subs or powered speakers you need the outlets for). If you want to save money, get the 1k unit and plug all amps directly. I will say that we heard a large and better difference with the Niagara 7000 installed into the system that had Vandersteen's amps/7 mk2 and served via high end analog and the top of the line Audio Research digital gear with all top of the line AQ cables.

 

Honestly, I do hear a difference in many cables and lot's of the expensive ones I don't like what I hear. Often I hear them zapping the music or changing it and not for the best. Many manufacturers are playing with the sound just like a component. I have often had MIT (their highest end) or others in my system as my old dealer was/is a good friend and he would let me break things in and often just let me borrow them for long periods of time. I do believe though that in nearly every case, I'd rather have spent that money on component upgrades if you go just by sound quality. That's why in my system, I will not spend a large % of my budget on cabling and I feel I have a very good sounding system. I want to go up more and more to listen (as I am now). Even if I'm doing other things like surfing, I have my music on. Having MS and not always being able to leave the house, I listen for long periods of time and I want something that I love to listen to. Thanks for letting me play.

[mac_and_dac]

 

Typically I see the speakers needing upgrades. For some reason speakers that are older than 7 years or so can be very outdated. Newer technology and more sensitive measuring devices have helped designers create much better speakers over the last few years. Even the trickle down to the mid fi have been great.

 

 

Have to agree with that. The jump from the LS50's I owned to what I have now was a step change in SQ for me, whilst similar jumps in DACs and amplification have been more what I would call 'refinements'.