Equipment hierarchy - what's the best upgrade path?

[OldBigEars]

@ OldBigEars

I've been proponent of the 'British school' too (though rather 'even financial proportions' one) as I owed my early audiophile education to the audio press from the U.K. (and 'Stereophile' later on). Till I opened my own audiophile audio store back in the nineties (I don't own it anymore). After you check hundreds of amps, speakers, sources and the way they sound connected to each other (through different cables) you learn a lot. And you also learn a lot about the business, the audio press, their truthfulness and financial connections (ads) with the gear producers. It's one of the reasons no hi-fi journalist will officially accept my 'disproportionate' theory. They get their money from the electronics producers too The situation often changes when one talks to them in private . You can take my word for it.

As for the Proacs and PMCs I haven't heard these models so I can't tell anything. What I can say is that 4 years ago I fullfilled my own 'lifetime speakers dream'(ex audiophile store owners hapen to have dreams like that too ). And since then not even for a second I regreted it! My speakers deserve better electronics (Devialet takes the first place on the list right now) which will make their sound probably 15% (my personal scale) better. I've never claimed that the source or the amp don't have an influence on the sound of the system. I just wanted the sound vs money proportions to get right according to my best knowledge and experience. I hope that my upgrade will be possible soon, unfortunately right now is not a good moment for it. Anyway I wish you fulfilling your audiophile dream too.

And hope you will keep us informed on the subject of the next steps of your upgrade path.

 

Sphinxsix, good to hear your thoughts - especially with all that retail experience. You would certainly be well qualified to make that assessment and it has given my interest in the PMC's a distinct jolt northwards. I'll probably see how things are progressing with the new Curious cables but will, no doubt, be doing some speaker auditioning in the coming weeks. My Linn's are 20+ years old, although they look brand new and sound great - but I've probably extracted my dollar's worth out of them.

[realhifi]

Sphinxsix, good to hear your thoughts - especially with all that retail experience. You would certainly be well qualified to make that assessment and it has given my interest in the PMC's a distinct jolt northwards. I'll probably see how things are progressing with the new Curious cables but will, no doubt, be doing some speaker auditioning in the coming weeks. My Linn's are 20+ years old, although they look brand new and sound great - but I've probably extracted my dollar's worth out of them.

 

Before you get out of Linn be sure to give the Majik Isobariks a good listen. Totally engaging, easy to drive and hooked up to Akurate electronics they are superbly satisfying all rounders. I absolutely love the Akurate DSM into an Akurate 2200. Add a great table and honestly I could be done.

[sphinxsix]

S My Linn's are 20+

20+ years ago I was seriously thinking about buying Keilidhs without listening to them first, just trusting good press reviews as there was no Linn dealer in my city and nowhere around Give a try some French stuff, it is quite dfferend sonically, often more detailed and dynamic and with more precise, controlled bass. But don't trust me. Your ears are more important than anybody's advice after all we have no possibility of listening to the music using anything but them

[christopher3393]

Mostly, there is just a lot of guessing.

[sphinxsix]

I will repeat one last time Find the speakers you love. Costing as much as you can afford. And then some more.. (If you are a hardcore audiophile sell your wife and kids to ISIS ).

Then go down the audio chain - the finishing stroke being the cables and accesories. Enjoy!

[bluesman]

Give a try some French stuff, it is quite dfferend sonically, often more detailed and dynamic and with more precise, controlled bass.

Yes indeed! I was skeptical, wanting Proacs or GoldenEars to replace my LS3/5a + sub setup. But a fine dealer in our area had several Focals set up (including a pair that were over $100k), and my son suggested checking them out. It took me about 10 seconds to appreciate how great they are and what value they represent (I went for the $2k pair, not the $100k pair...)

[sphinxsix]

Yes indeed! I was skeptical, wanting Proacs or GoldenEars to replace my LS3/5a + sub setup. But a fine dealer in our area had several Focals set up (including a pair that were over $100k), and my son suggested checking them out. It took me about 10 seconds to appreciate how great they are and what value they represent (I went for the $2k pair, not the $100k pair...)

A fine dealer is pure gold.. Sometimes an ex-dealer too

I'm happy for you. Been using 2 Focal (JM Lab) models myself.

And by the way for those who could be interested - their older (polikevlar-tioxid) series still sound fantastic. Though they require careful amplifier matching - it shouldn't be too bright but smooth as ..baby's ass.. let's say

Ps. I like your avatar and location

[bluesman]

A fine dealer is pure gold.. Sometimes an ex-dealer too

My sadly departed dealer was a truly great guy named Dan Greenfield. Dan was a lawyer who discovered "hi fi" after WWII and gave up his law career to open Danby Radio in Philly. He had a great ear, seriously good instincts, and a sense of fair play that brought him both a loyal cadre of customers / friends and an equally adamant group of detractors. He treated all others in accord with the same standards he expected from them, and I'm absolutely certain that he never misled or short-changed anyone in any way.

 

Dan had some basic principles that got him in hot water from time to time. He wouldn't sell anything that he hadn't personally tested and burned in. As he was one of the earliest dealers for McIntosh, Marantz, HK, Crown and most other high end products, he attracted a well heeled group. Not a few demanded an unopened box, but Dan steadfastly refused - he had custom made shelving with no-mar covering on which every piece he sold was left running for as long as he determined necessary before he'd deliver it. And deliver it he did - in person, on many occasions. He delivered and installed home systems for customers like Eugene Ormandy (a highly revered, long time conductor of the Philadelphia Orchestra). He also designed and installed the first sound reinforcement system used in our Academy of Music, along with his long time friend and co-designer Freddy Martin (whose speakers they used there).

 

His tech was always fully trained on all of his lines and a source of consultation to them. So it wasn't surprising that Dan and his crew found problems in brand new designs and pieces that the manufacturers hadn't yet uncovered. Bose used to come to Danby to learn about Dan's patented "reflector speakers", known affectionately as the coffins because they were the size and shape of same. His knowledge of music and sound was extraordinary, and he was a big proponent of home auditioning.

 

BTW, he hated inefficiency in any form and therefore disliked my 15 ohm Rogers LS3/5as from day one (for no good reason, if they have internet access wherever you ended up, Dan!) So I had to buy them elsewhere because he wouldn't get me a pair. But he made me bring them in for side by side auditions against almost every great speaker he had from winter '74-5 when I got them until the late '80s. There were some late signs of softening, although we never reached the level of an "I'm sorry, you were right" or an "OK, so what if they suck up a little more power - they really sound great".

 

We had a great relationship for many years, and I treasure those memories. His wife Fran was truly wonderful, too. Dan shaped my approaches to music, audio, and even to life. He "made" me buy many pieces, most of which I don't have any longer. He got me a brand new Crown SX724 high speed deck, the first Yamaha B2 power amp available in our market, and many other great items. But my Thorens TD125 / SME was the first thing he convinced me to buy (1969), and it will go to the grave with me.

 

If you have a great dealer, support him or her. Like your teeth, you only have to take care of the ones you want to keep.

[sphinxsix]

An inspiring story, bluesman! I have to say I'm also quite suspicious as far as low efficiency speakers are concerned although some of them sound great (LS3/5 are a legend) there is a higher risk of dynamic weakness in their case.

[Rexp]

I will repeat one last time Find the speakers you love. Costing as much as you can afford. And then some more.. (If you are a hardcore audiophile sell your wife and kids to ISIS ).

Then go down the audio chain - the finishing stroke being the cables and accesories. Enjoy!

Totally wrong, find a source you like and build a system around it.

[kennyb123]

Totally wrong, find a source you like and build a system around it.

 

Totally wrong. Select speakers that really move you. Then select gear really makes them really shine.

 

My Aerial speakers fit my preferences nearly perfectly. Pairing them with Spectral gear made then an even better fit. That just left me with the easier task of selecting a source and cabling based on pretty much one quality alone: how well it gets the heck out of the way of the music for the price I was willing to pay.

[bluesman]

Totally wrong, find a source you like and build a system around it.

Yep - I build all my systems around Wes Montgomery.

[Rexp]

Totally wrong. Select speakers that really move you. Then select gear really makes them really shine.

 

My Aerial speakers fit my preferences nearly perfectly. Pairing them with Spectral gear made then an even better fit. That just left me with the easier task of selecting a source and cabling based on pretty much one quality alone: how well it gets the heck out of the way of the music for the price I was willing to pay.

The OP's system costs around 6K, yours I'm guessing at least 30k. so not great advice is it?

[kennyb123]

The OP's system costs around 6K, yours I'm guessing at least 30k. so not great advice is it?

 

I'm giving exactly the advice I followed. I paid $2500 for my speakers 20 or so years ago. I've been improving everything around them since then. My approach has delivered the musical goods in ways I could never have imagined when I first got these speakers. In other words, I'm offering advice that's based on 20 years of experience, and it got its start with an even more modest system than the OP's.

 

What are you offering? You don't even list your system. We can't even see what choices you've made or have any clue how good of a job you've done assembling a system. Nor can we see if you are actually walking your talk.

[Rexp]

I'm giving exactly the advice I followed. I paid $2500 for my speakers 20 or so years ago. I've been improving everything around them since then. My approach has delivered the musical goods in ways I could never have imagined when I first got these speakers. In other words, I'm offering advice that's based on 20 years of experience, and it got its start with an even more modest system than the OP's.

 

What are you offering? You don't even list your system. We can't even see what choices you've made or have any clue how good of a job you've done assembling a system. Nor can ww see if you are actually walking your talk.

20 years ago I opened a high-end audio shop so have a lot of experience in system building and I can assure you the source followed by the amp, followed by the speakers is the way to go.

[kennyb123]

20 years ago I opened a high-end audio shop so have a lot of experience in system building and I can assure you the source followed by the amp, followed by the speakers is the way to go.

 

Just because you say so? Why not offer some real world examples that help us understand the success you achieved with this approach. Tell us stories about the customers who thanked you for leading them down your path.

 

I assume they are still current customers. I'm sure if your approach was the "way to go" your business would still be thriving now. And certainly you'd be listing your system here.

[Rexp]

Just because you say so? Why not offer some real world examples that help us understand the success you achieved with this approach. Tell us stories about the customers who thanked you for leading them down your path.

 

I assume they are still current customers. I'm sure if your approach was the "way to go" your business would still be thriving now. And certainly you'd be listing your system here.

I gave up selling hifi because I couldn't find a digital front-end that matched analog. That is why the source is the most important part of the chain, if you don't get it right , it doesn't matter how good your amps or speakers are.

[kennyb123]

I gave up selling hifi because I couldn't find a digital front-end that matched analog. That is why the source is the most important part of the chain, if you don't get it right , it doesn't matter how good your amps or speakers are.

 

I agree that it's hard to find digital that matches analog. I must say that I'm now hearing things from digital that are keeping me from wanting to get out of my chair to thrown on a record.

[r_w]

The awkward truth is that both methods are a catch 22, either your source is too good for the rest of your system or your speakers are.

 

There is no specific method, it can only be done with trial, error and luck (good component matching) across the entire chain.

 

The argument above is pointless as is the ethos of this thread, there is no one size best upgrade path.

 

All I would say is that if you buy a pair of active ATC speakers, that part of your system will probably be fixed for life (provided that you get their utterly pure sound), but they will sound crap with a crap source - you see my point...

 

;-)

[sjay]

speakers then room treatment is my advice. after that the rest is no only much easier but you can hear clearly the changes in your front end deliver.

[sphinxsix]

speakers then room treatment is my advice. after that the rest is no only much easier but you can hear clearly the changes in your front end deliver.

 

Yep. That is right.

[sphinxsix]

Yep - I build all my systems around Wes Montgomery.

I like this method too although mine were built more around 'Kind of Blue'.

[Jud]

Yep - I build all my systems around Wes Montgomery.

 

You let Wes out once in a while, right?

 

(Thanks folks, I'll be here all week....)

 

Anyhow, on the thread topic: I think there is no single right way to do things. For whatever reason, I think we all wind up with pieces of equipment, or speakers, or even cables, that we think are either holding the rest of the system back in some way on the one hand, or are plenty good enough that the rest of the system can be improved around them on the other hand. If replacements for the pieces we want to improve are affordable, we go get 'em, and hopefully it works out. At least that's the way it's worked for me over the years - more a matter of happenstance than great principles in mind guiding every action.

 

One principle I do adhere to is that each piece of equipment must, as far as I can tell, not commit obvious audio sins that are then to be balanced out by the sins of some other part of the system. That is, I don't believe in "system matching," where your amp sounds bright to you, but you supposedly balance that with "dark" or "warm" sounding cables or speakers. To me, that way lies madness - two pieces that are obviously doing something wrong don't sum up to good sound. So each piece must be very listenable on its own, only committing, as far as possible within my budget, reasonably unnoticeable sins of omission. This has led to me being happy enough with most of the stuff in my system, right down to cables, that I've kept much of it for a pretty long time. I have cables still in use that are a couple of decades old, as is my preamp (as were my speakers and amp until being replaced a couple of years ago with pieces I intend to hold on to for the foreseeable future).

[bluesman]

You let Wes out once in a while, right?

 

(Thanks folks, I'll be here all week....

Ka........ching!

 

So you favor Murph & the Magic Tones, eh Jud?

[OldBigEars]

Update...(I'm sure you've been breathlessly waiting :-)....the Curious cables are newly installed and my SQ has just clicked up another notch, no doubt about it. Maybe things will even get better as they break in. The attention I've put on the front end little things over the past few weeks have bought huge improvements, with a relative modest outlay. Probably the 'game changer' of the lot was changing the wall outlets - cost me all of $85. The RUR and CC combination have also lived up to their hype and my hopes.

 

Next step will probably cost more. I'll check out DAC upgrades. I'm not especially keen on this direction as we all know how fast-moving the category is. I'm not fond of buying stuff that's obsolete within a year. The dream-speaker route is definitely on my mind....just need to hear the improvements over my Linn's, that have never sounded better, thanks to the new USB cables etc.

 

Many thanks for everyone's input and advice.