Equipment hierarchy - what's the best upgrade path?

[Nikko1960]

I like French brands like Focal (JMLab) and Triangle and in my opinion they make some fantastic speakers.

 

+1 for JM Labs. I have a pair of Mini Utopias driven by a Boulder AE500 and the sound is fab.

 

Also +1 for concentrating on source components as advocated by Linn.

 

nikko

[OldBigEars]

So you're confirming your previous outlet was corroded/broken/mis-installed, correct?

 

No, I'm not. It wasn't obviously any of those things and it generally behaved normally: plug a lamp in - it worked etc. I did't keep it after I changed it so I can't confirm its condition either way. I'm merely saying the new outlet works audibly better, in a very clear way. Sorry if this conflicts with your theory /expertise / own experience.

[sphinxsix]

Err..

[sphinxsix]

+1 for JM Labs. I have a pair of Mini Utopias driven by a Boulder AE500 and the sound is fab.

 

Also +1 for concentrating on source components as advocated by Linn.

 

nikko

 

+1 for the Minis I know Utopias very well, a friend of mine and an ex-customer (I used to have a specialist audio store in the old days) uses Mezzo Utopias, the tioxid-sandwich w version. JM Lab's polikevlar sounds different, more analitical, if the speaker design is good the sound can be breathtaking. Manfred Zoller (the designer of speakers I use) was a speaker design genius in my opinion. It's a shame he didn't care about the business aspect of speaker building that much. That's one of the reasons why not that many peaople heard of Zoller Design.

[mordante]

My 100% amateuristic advice.

 

1) room treatment bass absorbers in the corners and mid/high absorbers on the wall and ceiling at first reflection point.

2) high efficient speakers, easier to drive speakers are often more dynamic (Blumenhofer)

3) integrated amp with a great power supply, IMHO a good power supply is needed to give good dynamic. Wattage is second.

4) the rest.

[Iain]

Iain, being a Brit ex-pat living the US I think I can help you see this from a different perspective. Back in the UK, people never think about or question their electrical wall sockets and plugs. Pretty much all the time, they just work - and pump out nice, strong 240v electricity on demand.

 

I remember moving to North America 20 years ago. It wasn't long before I discovered the 'Mickey Mouse' quality of typical North American sockets and plugs, and the iffy nature of their output. I happen to work in the appliances industry and I frequently ran into the 'question' of whether or not too many appliances were plugged in for each one to receive its regular share of power. It was quite a surprise. Over the past 20 years I've somewhat become used to the crappy quality of North American electrical components. Believe me, they are typically not the same quality as the ones used in the UK.

 

I tell you this, as your strongly held POV may be accurate on your side of the pond, but it sure ain't true over here :-)

 

Thanks for the clarification. That makes sense, now.

 

All too often, cheap connectors will degrade over time and turn into a current-limiting circuit, instead of what was originally intended. Your solution will prevent that.

 

Read about solar power. You'll learn that what's inside the home feeding junk back into the mains has far more effect on the quality of power than that 500km. It's therefore not useless to think about ways to improve the quality of power inside the home.

 

Have a go at one of the Isobar-4, Isobar-6 or the Isobar-8 surge suppressors:

Surge Protectors | Tripp Lite

 

... they feature 20 db of isolation between each 2-outlet bank of mains connectors.

 

My 100% amateuristic advice.

 

...

2) high efficient speakers, easier to drive speakers are often more dynamic (Blumenhofer)

3) integrated amp with a great power supply, IMHO a good power supply is needed to give good dynamic. Wattage is second.

4) the rest.

 

Not amateurish at all.

 

KEF speakers are simple to drive. With a 125 watt amplifier and an active subwoofer with a 400 watt amplifier crossed over at 110 hz, are the best of both worlds.

[sphinxsix]

My 100% amateuristic advice.

 

1) room treatment

2) high efficient speakers, easier to drive speakers are often more dynamic

 

Absolutely agree .

[sphinxsix]

Ps. I've also noticed the higher the speakers' efficiency the bigger chances for good dynamics. That's one of the reasons I like Focal and Triangle. Not mentioning Zoller. My Solution are 94 db (real not 'factory measured') and an easy drive. Their dynamics are astonishing and at the same time you can drive them with 10W triode. Although the subs do rather remain hungry for a 'solid state' current which lets them deliver better controlled bass..

[Pneumonic]

Speaker/room performance errors are measured in 10's, or more, of dB's whereas digital sources and (non) clipping amps measure in tenth's, or less, of dB's. So get the best speaker/room setup you can afford first.

[sphinxsix]

That is correct. For years the audio press used to say; CD - X$, amp - X$, speakers - X$. Much more sense makes in my opinion proportion: CD (or other source) - X, amp - 2 x X, speakers - 3 x X$. 10-15% - cables chosen to precisely balance the system. Much more important than spending approximately the same amounts of $$$ on the components is choosing the components in a way that will make a balanced system (avoiding all too bright or too warm etc.). The room acoustics plus the speakers are responsible in 85% for what we hear!

[davide256]

That is correct. For years the audio press used to say; CD - X$, amp - X$, speakers - X$. Much more sense makes in my opinion proportion: CD (or other source) - X, amp - 2 x X, speakers - 3 x X$. 10-15% - cables chosen to precisely balance the system. Much more important than spending approximately the same amounts of $$$ on the components is choosing the components in a way that will make a balanced system (avoiding all too bright or too warm etc.). The room acoustics plus the speakers are responsible in 85% for what we hear!

whisper chain effect occurs with audio. Small errors are multiplied in each successive element of the audio chain. Speakers can't fix what's already wrong, and are basically a choice of how you like your music colored. A good amp can tame a bad cheap speaker.

[kennyb123]

The room acoustics plus the speakers are responsible in 85% for what we hear!

 

I've had my Aerial 10T speakers set up in 5 or 6 different rooms, as I moved around a bunch of time. They've pretty much sounded the same regardless of room. The rooms differed only by what frequencies were emphasized. I never heard a significant change in how to how well they performed when switching rooms. It would always be pretty much a return to my same old system after I spent a bit of effort to get my speakers properly placed in the new room.

 

The MUCH greater gains in making them sound like music came from improvements to the gear, the cabling and the supports (Stillpoints Ultras). Placing Ultras under my speaker was almost like upgrading to a better pair of speakers. Other recent changes in gear have significantly improved the bass - producing bass I never thought the 10Ts could produce.

 

In summary, I don't at all agree with those who suggest the room is the far bigger deal than gear, cabling and supports (assuming proper care has been taken to properly position the speakers). In addition I'd say that room treatment is at the same level of importance as the gear, cables, etc, with the benefit being that room treatment is far more affordable. The GIK products are a great value, but they only correct room problems. The better the gear, the more of the original signal that is passes. Crappy gear will restrain the magic, and nothing you can do with the room will allow it to come forth.

 

My 10Ts are pretty forgiving when it comes to positioning. The first Aerial speaker I heard was actually the 7. It was set up terribly at the dealer, with each at a different toe in and one in front of the other. And yet the center image bested what I heard from other speakers in its price range that had been setup properly. So I agree with the quoted post above that the speaker itself is responsible for a large percentage of what we hear.

[sphinxsix]

whisper chain effect occurs with audio. Small errors are multiplied in each successive element of the audio chai.

The 'whisper audio chain effect' sounds very good indeed! Unfortunately the speakers are the weakest, the most imperfect part of the audio chain. Compare Wilson Audio Alexandria's frequency response with a response of any cheap amp or a CD player! It goes freely +/- 5db in the 20Hz-20kHz range (a bad acoustically room can add another 10db especially in bass freqencies). The same thing with harmonic and phase distortion. The $300 amp connected to a $3000 speakers will sound better than $300 speakers driven by $3000 amp. D'Agostino amp won't turn cheap speakers into Grand Utopias.

[sphinxsix]

I've had my Aerial 10T speakers set up in 5 or 6 different rooms, as I moved around a bunch of time. They've pretty much sounded the same regardless of room. .

Of course the room won't change speakers sound dramatically so that you will not be able to recognise their sound in another room. The lack of carpet however will ruin the sound of even most fantastic system, I think everyone will agree on that.

I don't claim the cables and accessories have negligible influence on the sound. I wouldn't be using Siltech cables if this was my belief!

[kennyb123]

The $300 amp connected to a $3000 speakers will sound better than $300 speakers driven by $3000 amp. D'Agostino amp won't turn cheap speakers into Grand Utopias.

 

This is a logical fallacy of appealing to extremes - erroneously attempting to make a reasonable argument (one can significantly improve the sound by upgrading the electronics) into an absurd one, by taking the argument to the extreme. Not helpful as guidance for the OP who's wondering what his next best steps would be.

[sphinxsix]

@kennyb123 'taking the argument to the extreme' it is. I hope my previous posts can be helpful. That's why they have been written.

[kennyb123]

@kennyb123 'taking the argument to the extreme' it is. I hope my previous posts can be helpful. That's why they have been written.

 

I wasn't saying you weren't being helpful in this thread. I just pointed out that you made a logically fallacious argument when appealing to that extreme.

[Rexp]

That is correct. For years the audio press used to say; CD - X$, amp - X$, speakers - X$. Much more sense makes in my opinion proportion: CD (or other source) - X, amp - 2 x X, speakers - 3 x X$. 10-15% - cables chosen to precisely balance the system. Much more important than spending approximately the same amounts of $$$ on the components is choosing the components in a way that will make a balanced system (avoiding all too bright or too warm etc.). The room acoustics plus the speakers are responsible in 85% for what we hear!

Forget costs, the most important part of any system is a well set up source.

[master]

The $300 amp connected to a $3000 speakers will sound better than $300 speakers driven by $3000 amp. D'Agostino amp won't turn cheap speakers into Grand Utopias.

 

Andrew Jones will have something to say about that... and with proof as seen/ably demonstrated in most shows of late.

 

Speakers, amp, source/transport, DAC are all important. No one can say which to any degree of accuracy or even certainty...

 

Take me for example. I had to up the budget of my amp to the vicinity of the speakers before they sounded at their best... at least in what I've heard. Maybe a $50,000 amp will take them even further.

 

Then a $35 Raspberry Pi walked all over my $2500 PC. That got me into source/transport separation, galvanic isolation, etc.

 

Both of them had a huge and telling effect on the SQ, the improvement was huge.

 

But that's not the end of the story.

 

Once I got into multibit DACs (even the mid-budget ones from Schiit) the improvement was again huge and not marginal. Put Yggy in my chain and even the Redbooks sing like the band is in my room. I'm not even sure how HQP and something like the T+A DAC 8 DSD will sound, but expectedly good maybe even exceptional going by the reviews.

 

There really is no single point of reference you can cite as having the most bearing on the outcome of SQ. Every little bit helps.

 

PS: I don't even spend much on cables and don't even bother with room acoustics. Who knows how much of a difference they will make if and when I get into them?

[sphinxsix]

Trust me on this....the outlet change made a huge difference. As a comparison, last week I borrowed another amp (Rogue Cronus Magnum 11) - this improvement with the outlet change was much more satisfying than the amp change. The amp has gone back - I'm happy with my Rega for now.

Anyway OldBigEars (mine are quite old too ) has finished the upgrading process with the change of the outlet. I almost regret that after moving to my new apartment 2 years ago the first thing I did was changing all the outlets, so I couldn't compare the sound of my system before and after the change

 

 

c

[OldBigEars]

Anyway OldBigEars (mine are quite old too ) has finished the upgrading process with the change of the outlet. I almost regret that after moving to my new apartment 2 years ago the first thing I did was changing all the outlets, so I couldn't compare the sound of my system before and after the change

 

c

 

Well, I haven't quite finished upgrading, although changing the amp is not my first priority. My next step is installing Curious USB cables this weekend. I'm excited to experience the difference, given all the favorable comments and reviews. Certainly I believe my system will have reached a very acceptable plateau at this point.

 

I have no intention of spending resources on 'room treatment'. For one, I suspect the acoustics in my listening room are quite good. Secondly (and far more important) my 'listening room' is in fact our living room, and I'm not about to transform its decor into a quasi-science laboratory. The speakers are well placed and are securely located on stands, with decent quality cables - and that's it.

 

Moving on from this plateau, I'm currently juggling my thoughts between a DAC upgrade and new speakers. I'm aiming to try either a Mytek Brooklyn and/or Ayre Codex, just to see whether the incremental performance gain over my Concero is worth it. Both offer headphone outlets, which would be nice. I'm also considering Schiit Y or G.

 

On the speaker side, I've got my eye on trying some Proac 148's to replace my Linn's. Although for the past month I've been considering some gorgeous lightly-used PMC Fact 8's. They would be a major cost - but truly a lifetime investment. If I did so, this would put to the test Sphinxsix's theory that the money should be disproportionately spent on better speakers, rather than elsewhere up the chain.

 

Up to this point, I've been a lifelong proponent of the 'British approach' - which puts the sonic priority squarely on the source. "Once it's lost, you can never retrieve it." There's much to be said for this, especially in smaller rooms where it's pointless and sometime counter-productive to have an extremely powerful amp or speakers.

[bluesman]

They would be a major cost - but truly a lifetime investment.

According to my wife, I'm on lifetime 19.1.....and we're expecting an update any day now.

[sphinxsix]

@ OldBigEars

I've been proponent of the 'British school' too (though rather 'even financial proportions' one) as I owed my early audiophile education to the audio press from the U.K. (and 'Stereophile' later on). Till I opened my own audiophile audio store back in the nineties (I don't own it anymore). After you check hundreds of amps, speakers, sources and the way they sound connected to each other (through different cables) you learn a lot. And you also learn a lot about the business, the audio press, their truthfulness and financial connections (ads) with the gear producers. It's one of the reasons no hi-fi journalist will officially accept my 'disproportionate' theory. They get their money from the electronics producers too The situation often changes when one talks to them in private . You can take my word for it.

As for the Proacs and PMCs I haven't heard these models so I can't tell anything. What I can say is that 4 years ago I fullfilled my own 'lifetime speakers dream'(ex audiophile store owners hapen to have dreams like that too ). And since then not even for a second I regreted it! My speakers deserve better electronics (Devialet takes the first place on the list right now) which will make their sound probably 15% (my personal scale) better. I've never claimed that the source or the amp don't have an influence on the sound of the system. I just wanted the sound vs money proportions to get right according to my best knowledge and experience. I hope that my upgrade will be possible soon, unfortunately right now is not a good moment for it. Anyway I wish you fulfilling your audiophile dream too.

And hope you will keep us informed on the subject of the next steps of your upgrade path.

[sphinxsix]

Ps. When you apply 1X - 2X - 3X 'financial progression' the system elements have to be very well matched to each other otherwise there is a danger the loudspeakers will vividly show the source's or amp's weak areas. If done right the result can be astonishing but in some regards I believe ca 1 - 1,5 - 2,25 (source - amp - speakers of course) progression (I' m very precise with numbers, ha, ha) is a safer one. Not so spectacular sound results maybe but less of the above mentioned danger.

Ps 2. As for the room acousitcs treatment I agree if the room doesn't have strong acoustics 'nasties' the book shelves filled with books can for example be fantastic treatment and they are very cheap (if you already got the books). I personally also don't like the idea of a living room looking like an interior of a psychodelic space ship

[OldBigEars]

According to my wife, I'm on lifetime 19.1.....and we're expecting an update any day now.

 

Haha, I know what you mean :-)