Equipment hierarchy - what's the best upgrade path?

[mac_and_dac]

 

... as is, I didn't know that I had been listening to massive quantities of intermodulation distortion, until it all went away when I properly installed and integrated a quality subwoofer alongside my top-end AVR and KEF Q-series stand-mounted speakers, all round. (KEF R-series are better)

 

I did the same, put in a quality sub (Rel G2) to back up my KEF LS50's. Brought them to life.

[davide256]

Thanks for everyone's input. Appreciate the tips from one or two of you about "improving my listening skills..." lol. To some extent, I recognize there is a "skill" to audio appreciation but quite frankly, all I can say to that point is that music has been my life for the past 50 years (playing and listening). I tend to trust my ears and capacity to simply enjoy what I hear - or not - without undue over-analysis. Sorry if this sounds overly defensive - certainly no offense intended. On the subject of room acoustics - this is not a variable for me. On the equipment side, I tend to concur with the traditional British school of thought which suggests addressing the source before changing out the amp/speaker combo. However, I'm going to try and lug my gear to a friendly dealer and will spend a day playing with permutations. I'll let you know how it goes :-)

 

Take this into consideration... amplification and speaker technology change slowly. Unless the original design was bad, chances are your amplification and speakers have held up well. However digital technology has changed fast over the last decade; I find myself changing DAC's every 2-3 years and source solutions are improving even faster.

 

I think you will be amazed by what the latest generation of DAC and music server/streamer solutions offer for audio fidelity.

[kennyb123]

I recently upgraded my music server and DAC. Biggest upgrade came from what I did before that: a better power cord feeding my power strip. That would be my recommendation.

[OldBigEars]

I recently upgraded my music server and DAC. Biggest upgrade came from what I did before that: a better power cord feeding my power strip. That would be my recommendation.

 

Thanks - I'm probably going to change the builder-grade wall output. I suspect it's far from ideal for my amplifier.

[OldBigEars]

I'd reiterate what krk4201 said... There are very few people who have squeezed the max out of their setups in this regard... Changing an outlets is much more marginal.

 

OK I've changed the wall outlet. Ditched the builder grade outlet, replaced it with The Maestro, from Cruze First Audio. $85. All I can say is WOW! No really, no hi-fi BS - the difference is truly astonishing. Time to bring out all the old records and hear them for the first time. Roll out any cliche you like - this is hands down the best value thing you can do for your system, if you haven't done so already. I quite honestly feel an idiot for not upgrading the power outlet years ago. So simple, but damn it so effective. I quite honestly feel my outlet upgrade beats speakers, amp or (lord help us) a major DAC upgrade for the real difference it makes to the music. I'll stop here and get back to listening. You get the picture.

[Maxxwire]

A few years ago I moved into a 30 year old house. After I connected my audio system up exactly as it had been before the move I noticed that it now had a distortion to the sound which at the time I described as 'sour'. Back then I had been using a Conrad Johnson MV-52 Tube Amp for about 4 years and this newly distorted sound became very disturbing to me. In desperation I tried to figure out what had changed to cause this change and eventually I realized that most likely the difference was the single wall outlet that the audio equipment was now using. After removing the original construction grade 'zip'n clip' outlet from the wall this is what I found...

 

 

After replacing the 30 year old corroded outlet the entire audio system immediately returned to the wonderful sound that I had been used to enjoying from it for so many years.

[master]

I'm going to reiterate clean power. Nothing else gave me the performance upgrade as going from a $2000 PC and USB to a $35 Raspberry Pi on a power bank and Toslink (now Synology NAS). It raised the performance bar on my system unlike anything else.

 

I was seriously considering an upgrade, but after the power tweak my planned upgrade did not do much in the SQ improvement department, and meant I'd need to go higher up the "highend" chain for any meaningful improvement in SQ.

 

The sound reproduction is remarkable, darkest of blacks, you can hear new sounds and instruments, as well as background vocals that you never knew existed and in albums I've been hearing for the better part of 15-20 years. It's like a thick veil has been lifted from my music.

 

Before you pursue any upgrade seriously consider clean power. Since I've discovered it I've even moved all my interconnects to glass Toslink on the DACs. It's a performance upgrade unlike anything and cannot really be described and one has to hear it.

[Rexp]

OK I've changed the wall outlet. Ditched the builder grade outlet, replaced it with The Maestro, from Cruze First Audio. $85. All I can say is WOW! No really, no hi-fi BS - the difference is truly astonishing. Time to bring out all the old records and hear them for the first time. Roll out any cliche you like - this is hands down the best value thing you can do for your system, if you haven't done so already. I quite honestly feel an idiot for not upgrading the power outlet years ago. So simple, but damn it so effective. I quite honestly feel my outlet upgrade beats speakers, amp or (lord help us) a major DAC upgrade for the real difference it makes to the music. I'll stop here and get back to listening. You get the picture.

Nice plug....

[YashN]

OK I've changed the wall outlet. Ditched the builder grade outlet, replaced it with The Maestro, from Cruze First Audio. $85. All I can say is WOW!

 

That is an excellent outlet, probably the best value-for-money you can get for an outlet said to be very neutral.

 

Now, couple this with a dedicated line and give it some long time to settle, and you'll get to another level of WOW! you hadn't imagined.

 

Of course, my previous recommendations still stand: clean power, vibration isolation (Also coupled to any power filter box, and room diagnosis + organic acoustic treatment (No DSP approach, unless after the organic acoustic treatment there still remain pesky peaks or troughs).

 

With clean power comes great responsibility of using good power cables.

[wgscott]

Thanks KRK, good to start with these points. I think I'm in good shape here, but I do intend to upgrade the builder-grade power outlet - I've read that this can make a surprising difference.

 

The interpretation of this is quite depending on the word "surprising" as well as your prior expectations.

 

(If it made any audible difference at all, I would be shocked (pun intended)).

[kennyb123]

OK I've changed the wall outlet. Ditched the builder grade outlet, replaced it with The Maestro, from Cruze First Audio. $85. All I can say is WOW! No really, no hi-fi BS - the difference is truly astonishing.

 

Upgrading my outlet remains one of the biggest upgrades for the price that I've done since I've been spending money on this hobby.

[Iain]

I suggest that you take all that you read with a pinch of salt (or in some cases a whole bag).

 

Instead, educate yourself on how to listen, learn a bit of the hows and whys and try to create an auditory database of what's possible to achieve in audio reproduction by visiting dealers, audio shows and enthusiast bake-offs.

Assessing performance requires listening.

 

R

 

I'd reiterate what krk4201 said... There are very few people who have squeezed the max out of their setups in this regard... Changing an outlets is much more marginal.

 

This.

 

You lot who change a simple mains cable and think it works well, are sadly fooling yourselves. That doesn't do anything to ameliorate the effects of 500 km. of mains that came before it.

 

A better solution would be a well-designed, professional-class, passive > 1 KVA isolation transformer with an effective faraday shield.

[YashN]

That doesn't do anything to ameliorate the effects of 500 km. of mains that came before it.

 

That's an all too often repeated fallacy: everything near your equipment matters a lot, including what your other audio equipment is re-injecting into the mains, how properly shielded your AC cables are, how clean your AC power in your audio listening room is, chassis-grounding, EFI/RMI in proximity related to AC power, the very jacks/plugs/blades and the contacts.

[OldBigEars]

The interpretation of this is quite depending on the word "surprising" as well as your prior expectations.

 

(If it made any audible difference at all, I would be shocked (pun intended)).

 

Trust me on this....the outlet change made a huge difference. As a comparison, last week I borrowed another amp (Rogue Cronus Magnum 11) - this improvement with the outlet change was much more satisfying than the amp change. The amp has gone back - I'm happy with my Rega for now.

[OldBigEars]

A few years ago I moved into a 30 year old house. After I connected my audio system up exactly as it had been before the move I noticed that it now had a distortion to the sound which at the time I described as 'sour'. Back then I had been using a Conrad Johnson MV-52 Tube Amp for about 4 years and this newly distorted sound became very disturbing to me. In desperation I tried to figure out what had changed to cause this change and eventually I realized that most likely the difference was the single wall outlet that the audio equipment was now using. After removing the original construction grade 'zip'n clip' outlet from the wall this is what I found...

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]26488[/ATTACH]

 

After replacing the 30 year old corroded outlet the entire audio system immediately returned to the wonderful sound that I had been used to enjoying from it for so many years.

 

+1

[OldBigEars]

Thanks - all good. I'm converted to the power of good power!

[OldBigEars]

This.

 

You lot who change a simple mains cable and think it works well, are sadly fooling yourselves. That doesn't do anything to ameliorate the effects of 500 km. of mains that came before it.

 

A better solution would be a well-designed, professional-class, passive > 1 KVA isolation transformer with an effective faraday shield.

 

Iain, being a Brit ex-pat living the US I think I can help you see this from a different perspective. Back in the UK, people never think about or question their electrical wall sockets and plugs. Pretty much all the time, they just work - and pump out nice, strong 240v electricity on demand.

 

I remember moving to North America 20 years ago. It wasn't long before I discovered the 'Mickey Mouse' quality of typical North American sockets and plugs, and the iffy nature of their output. I happen to work in the appliances industry and I frequently ran into the 'question' of whether or not too many appliances were plugged in for each one to receive its regular share of power. It was quite a surprise. Over the past 20 years I've somewhat become used to the crappy quality of North American electrical components. Believe me, they are typically not the same quality as the ones used in the UK.

 

I tell you this, as your strongly held POV may be accurate on your side of the pond, but it sure ain't true over here :-)

[davide256]

Iain, being a Brit ex-pat living the US I think I can help you see this from a different perspective. Back in the UK, people never think about or question their electrical wall sockets and plugs. Pretty much all the time, they just work - and pump out nice, strong 240v electricity on demand.

 

I remember moving to North America 20 years ago. It wasn't long before I discovered the 'Mickey Mouse' quality of typical North American sockets and plugs, and the iffy nature of their output. I happen to work in the appliances industry and I frequently ran into the 'question' of whether or not too many appliances were plugged in for each one to receive its regular share of power. It was quite a surprise. Over the past 20 years I've somewhat become used to the crappy quality of North American electrical components. Believe me, they are typically not the same quality as the ones used in the UK.

 

I tell you this, as your strongly held POV may be accurate on your side of the pond, but it sure ain't true over here :-)

 

It's a fact that folks will spend big dollars on power cables in the US but not realize the electric plug in the wall cost 69 cents, is made out of cheaper metal than their stock power cord and was likely "stab plugged" in the back for fastest installation speed vs using the side screws for best permanent connection. Or the electrician may have tied the wiring together using the plug vs pig tailing connection from the two wire runs. Had an outlet burn out because of that, cheap pot metal between the two screws on one side couldn't handle the current draw of the next plug.

 

Net is, it pays to identify all plugs connected on your audio circuit, and with the breaker off insure they are correctly terminated to their plugs and replace the power plugs used for audio with a high quality plug... you don't need audio jewelry for this, a plug that uses decent conducting metal won't cost you more than $5

[lmitche]

I've always agreed with the Linn philosophy... you can't fix whats broken/missing upstream. Having a great source means most chance of success. Pursuing digital source/DAC improvement will reduce listening fatigue, improve hard percussion sounds, increase transient detail and give you better deep bass tone color. Beyond source life gets much more complex because of amp/pre/speaker electrical interaction. ( and $$$)

+1

[OldBigEars]

It's a fact that folks will spend big dollars on power cables in the US but not realize the electric plug in the wall cost 69 cents, is made out of cheaper metal than their stock power cord and was likely "stab plugged" in the back for fastest installation speed vs using the side screws for best permanent connection. Or the electrician may have tied the wiring together using the plug vs pig tailing connection from the two wire runs. Had an outlet burn out because of that, cheap pot metal between the two screws on one side couldn't handle the current draw of the next plug.

 

Net is, it pays to identify all plugs connected on your audio circuit, and with the breaker off insure they are correctly terminated to their plugs and replace the power plugs used for audio with a high quality plug... you don't need audio jewelry for this, a plug that uses decent conducting metal won't cost you more than $5

 

Dave, all I can tell you is that my newly installed $85 Maestro wall-plug has been a total revelation in my system. The best upgrade I've done for a long time. The fact that I happily use a <$1000 DAC, a <$2000 amp and <$3000 pair of speakers probably tells you that I'm not generally an advocate of "audio jewelry". I'm expecting to receive a W4S RUR later today - if it's half as effective, I'll be delighted. And it will cost me more than twice as much as the new outlet.

[JR4321]

Trust me on this....the outlet change made a huge difference. As a comparison, last week I borrowed another amp (Rogue Cronus Magnum 11) - this improvement with the outlet change was much more satisfying than the amp change. The amp has gone back - I'm happy with my Rega for now.

 

So you're confirming your previous outlet was corroded/broken/mis-installed, correct?

[davide256]

Dave, all I can tell you is that my newly installed $85 Maestro wall-plug has been a total revelation in my system. The best upgrade I've done for a long time. The fact that I happily use a <$1000 DAC, a <$2000 amp and <$3000 pair of speakers probably tells you that I'm not generally an advocate of "audio jewelry". I'm expecting to receive a W4S RUR later today - if it's half as effective, I'll be delighted. And it will cost me more than twice as much as the new outlet.

 

That's fine, in the world of audio $85 is still cheap. However if you don't verify that all plugs are correctly terminated for your audio circuit breaker, you may get some undesirable "party line" effects from other plugs in the circuit if the circuit has to pass through the contacts on another wall plug to reach your wall plug.

[kennyb123]

Dave, all I can tell you is that my newly installed $85 Maestro wall-plug has been a total revelation in my system. The best upgrade I've done for a long time.

 

Same outcome that I experienced in a brand new home with a $40 outlet. Also same for other friends who have tried this in their homes and apartments of various ages.

 

Can't explain why, but the wall outlet and the AC cable connected to it can have a major impact on how well a system performs.

[Jud]

This.

 

You lot who change a simple mains cable and think it works well, are sadly fooling yourselves. That doesn't do anything to ameliorate the effects of 500 km. of mains that came before it.

 

A better solution would be a well-designed, professional-class, passive > 1 KVA isolation transformer with an effective faraday shield.

 

Read about solar power. You'll learn that what's inside the home feeding junk back into the mains has far more effect on the quality of power than that 500km. It's therefore not useless to think about ways to improve the quality of power inside the home.

[sphinxsix]

I love your idea of buying Sonneteer amp as I'm using their Alabaster. It's a fantastic amp - triode-like midrange openness, high frequncies smoothness, bass control and generally fantastic rhythmic qualities let me feed MUCH more expensive speakers - Manfred Zoller's Solution 2003 (Focal polikevlar Audiom drivers, TC 120 TDX tweeters and two 13 inch Focal Audiom passive Onken subwoofers) without any audio nasties on the Sonneteer side..

 

At the same time in my opinion speakers and speakers-room acoustics interaction factor are responsible in 85% for what you hear. Of course the source and the amp shouldn't cause any 'trouble' but my experience tells me that if you invest 50% more money in speakers the audible effect will be much bigger than after investing the same amount in the amp or source.

 

I like French brands like Focal (JMLab) and Triangle and in my opinion they make some fantastic speakers. Triangle Celius was some time ago the cheapest speaker in Stereophile's A category - the 'very best sound on planet Earth' group and it costed only $2000. I know the speakers and their only drawback is a slight hardness of their highs. But with an amp like Sonneteer and right cables they should sing! In fact I compared once their sound to three times more expensive (very good) Audio Physics and I preferred the Triangles! Unfortunately they don't sound very 'British'. So it's as usual best to check for yourself if they deliver what you expect from speakers.

 

Good luck with your upgrading process, OldBigEars!

 

And by the way - it's my first post on my very first day of membership on Computeraudiophile.com so greetings to everybody!