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What is wrong with usb connection ?


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sorry ... do you mean that you go from the Raspberry to the Dac with toslink ? sorry if i had missed it.

 

My bad. Wireless from NAS (using MinimServer) to Chromecast Audio. Chromecast Audio to DAC via Toslink.

 

You can say its pretty much galvanic isolation till it reaches the DAC.

 

Also i wonder if a "usb wireless extender" exists. I am searching for this.

Thanks a lot again, gino

 

Not yet. Not even DACs with inbuilt wireless. But will eventually happen. For now devices like Devialet Phantom and Naim Mu-so are good to have. No cables, and 100% wireless from source/NAS.

 

I have a more traditional setup, but I use Chromecast Audio to make my DACs wireless.

 

Not many tools on the market, but apart from CCA the NuPrime WR-100 is a consideration. You can also use the Raspberry Pi 3 as an endpoint (it comes with inbuilt WiFi). Wireless speakers like Dynaudio Xeo are also an option.

Next to the Word of God, the noble art of music is the greatest treasure in the world - Martin Luther

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My bad. Wireless from NAS (using MinimServer) to Chromecast Audio. Chromecast Audio to DAC via Toslink. You can say its pretty much galvanic isolation till it reaches the DAC.

 

Very interesting and thanks a lot. This speaks highly for the quality of the optical out of the Chromecast ... very interesting device indeed. I have to study it much more in depth. I did not know of this kind of performance.

 

Not yet. Not even DACs with inbuilt wireless. But will eventually happen.

For now devices like Devialet Phantom and Naim Mu-so are good to have. No cables, and 100% wireless from source/NAS.

I have a more traditional setup, but I use Chromecast Audio to make my DACs wireless.

Not many tools on the market, but apart from CCA the NuPrime WR-100 is a consideration.

You can also use the Raspberry Pi 3 as an endpoint (it comes with inbuilt WiFi). Wireless speakers like Dynaudio Xeo are also an option

 

Very impressive device this Chromecast Audio ... truly amazing little marvel.

I think i should also reconsider optical connection. I have been influenced about reports of high jitter for this port and the rumors of poor implementation in average units.

I should trust my ear more than my eyes ... what i hear should be more important of what i read.

Thanks a lot again, gino

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Hi thanks for the helpful advice. A galvanic isolator if i understand well.

This is indeed what i am trying to understand. Which is the main issue with usb connection.

 

very beautiful. But it could be that the Intona is still necessary for best performance.

I do not think that this interface provides also galvanic isolation.

I have already some usb to spdif converters to try. However i miss a serious isolator like the Intona.

I would prefer a version that gives the possibility to inject clean 5VDC downstream the isolator. Some of the above mentioned converters need 5VDC on the usb port to function.

But it is important to me establish that galvanic isolation is a must.

Now the problem could be the added jitter caused by the isolator.

Thanks again, gino

 

I know there are some that hype up the intona and some the regen here (both owners are users here) and many have bought one or the other and not sure what are biased reviews and if i should even consider one. I understand noise from usb, and i see here you say it is important to handle galvanic isolation.

 

My dac says it has galvanic isolation as well....

 

....

Isolation circuit that completely separates the grounding of the digital and analog sectionsBetween the digital and analog sections, the circuit design uses a digital isolator to completely isolate both the power supply and the ground. So, all noise coming from digital input sources, starting with noise from the computer via USB, is prevented from entering the analog section by way of the power line or the ground. An isolation circuit offers significant benefit particularly when playing high-resolution audio sources with high sampling rates. The UD-503 is the first product in our Reference Series to include one

 

====

 

So will any of these usb toys do anything for my dac? and if so, do you have to have "golden ears" to hear the difference. I know the obvious answer is try it and find out, but i am just curious if anyone has a dac that states the same isolation as the teac ud503, that has tried one of these gadgets and noticed a difference.

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I know there are some that hype up the intona and some the regen here (both owners are users here) and many have bought one or the other and not sure what are biased reviews and if i should even consider one. I understand noise from usb, and i see here you say it is important to handle galvanic isolation.

 

My dac says it has galvanic isolation as well....

 

....

Isolation circuit that completely separates the grounding of the digital and analog sectionsBetween the digital and analog sections, the circuit design uses a digital isolator to completely isolate both the power supply and the ground. So, all noise coming from digital input sources, starting with noise from the computer via USB, is prevented from entering the analog section by way of the power line or the ground. An isolation circuit offers significant benefit particularly when playing high-resolution audio sources with high sampling rates. The UD-503 is the first product in our Reference Series to include one

 

====

 

So will any of these usb toys do anything for my dac? and if so, do you have to have "golden ears" to hear the difference. I know the obvious answer is try it and find out, but i am just curious if anyone has a dac that states the same isolation as the teac ud503, that has tried one of these gadgets and noticed a difference.

 

You have to try it for yourself.

 

My personal experience is a Lampi improved with the addition of a Regen, and it was quite a perceptible improvement at that.

 

Will your Teac improve? Hard to say, but if the Regen has a return policy then go ahead and try it.

 

If such devices work, they make quite a bit of difference especially for what they cost. If they don't and can be returned then no harm done.

Next to the Word of God, the noble art of music is the greatest treasure in the world - Martin Luther

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Seems like less hassle (but more $$) to use a DAC with built-in ethernet renderer (MSB Analog) or an ethernet renderer + I2S connected DAC (Sonore Signature Rendu + PS Audio Directstream). Maybe the price of admission for these types of non-USB toys will go down soon..

Synology DS1515+ >  PS Audio P10 > Innuos Zenith Mk II running Roon Core > IsoRegen/LPS-1 > Lyngdorf TDAI 2170 > Tekton Double Impact Speakers

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Wow, a lot of questions, many of which are very deep complicated technical issues. If you really want to delve into the details of some of them I have written a series of articles on audiostream that go into great detail on some of the issues involved with this.

 

Quick summation: there are several things going on at the same time that cause most USB implementations in DACs to not sound as good as they could. Each is caused by a different mechanism and need a different solution, thus there is no one "silver bullet" that fixes everything. Some of these mechanisms are not well understood, which makes fixing them difficult, it becomes a "I tried this and it makes it sound better", do that even more and it makes it worse. A lot of experimentation to get things sounding the best, and slowly gaining understanding as to what is actually going on.

 

It is VERY important to realize that none of this is gross level stuff, the audio data bits make it across either way. One of the major mechanisms is the operation of the USB receiver in the DAC itself is generating noise on its own power and ground planes which subtly degrades the performance of the DAC chip it is connected to. USB isolators and such make no difference to this mechanism since it is caused by the USB chip in the DAC itself.

 

What DOES seem to matter is the signal integrity of the USB signal itself. Its jitter, noise, ramp times etc. That is what the microRendu is all about. Generating a USB signal with the highest possible signal integrity to feed a DAC.

 

Electrical isolation does also seem to matter, there seems to be at least two mechanisms involved. One is traditional ground loop issues, low frequency noise going through ground connections from the computer to the DAC. A USB isolator does seem to fix these. Note this is NOT noise generated by the computer, it is noise caused by leakage currents from the power supplies of everything in the system going THROUGH the computer to the DAC.

 

There is a wide spread notion that the big problem with USB is noise generated by the computer traveling through the USB cable and polluting the DAC, I have looked carefully into this and do not see this as a big issue. There DOES seem to be an issue with noise on the power/ground wires in the USB cable coupling into the data wires, because of how most USB cables are made this results in some non-common mode noise which cannot be attenuated by the differential receiver in the DAC. Better designed cables CAN fix this. Lower noise on the P/G wires in the cable can also fix this. A subset of this is unbalanced drive on the cable which actually creates some of this noise on the ground wire.

 

The microRendu is specifically designed to address these issues, other motherboards, embedded systems etc are not. That is what you are paying for with the microRendu, a simple computer that has been optimized to significantly reduce these mechanisms which subtly degrade the performance of a DAC.

 

On the questions about network topology and SBT etc, I'll talk about those in a separate post. (maybe in the Dummies thread)

 

John S.

 

Cross posting from another thread... but obviously good information from someone who knows a lot more than us.

Next to the Word of God, the noble art of music is the greatest treasure in the world - Martin Luther

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The only reason USB is even in the conversation is that the whole digital file storage/playback started with a lap top computer. When in the past did USB even be considered as a possible connection to anything audio? Not is the answer. But since we started with USB it continues to hang around as some distant unwelcomed Uncle of the audio community. Really when did USB do anything right!

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The only reason USB is even in the conversation is that the whole digital file storage/playback started with a lap top computer. When in the past did USB even be considered as a possible connection to anything audio? Not is the answer. But since we started with USB it continues to hang around as some distant unwelcomed Uncle of the audio community. Really when did USB do anything right!

 

" You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!”

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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The only reason USB is even in the conversation is that the whole digital file storage/playback started with a lap top computer. When in the past did USB even be considered as a possible connection to anything audio? Not is the answer. But since we started with USB it continues to hang around as some distant unwelcomed Uncle of the audio community. Really when did USB do anything right!

I definitely disagree. When Gordon Rankin developed the asynch USB connection for audio it was and is a very high quality method to playback audio from a computer. Before all this hyped BS about improving it USB was and is a very simple hassle free easy way of playing audio from computers. Audiophile loonies have turned it into a perceived problem.

 

There also was the ASIO USB drivers specifically for audio more than a decade ago.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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I know there are some that hype up the intona and some the regen here (both owners are users here) and many have bought one or the other and not sure what are biased reviews and if i should even consider one. I understand noise from usb, and i see here you say it is important to handle galvanic isolation. My dac says it has galvanic isolation as well....

 

Hi ! thanks for the kind reply.

My approach is very basic. I look to the best designed units trying to spot some technical solutions.

Speaking of usb converter one reference of the last years is the unit from Berkeley Audio Alpha USB ... it has galvanic isolation inside. It sounds phenomenal. So galvanic isolation is good because i trust the designer.

Maybe i do not understand why the isolation follows the XMOS and it is not upstream it.

And so the parts used. Capacitors, resistors, transformers ... i guess their use is the result of a selection.

 

So will any of these usb toys do anything for my dac? and if so, do you have to have "golden ears" to hear the difference. I know the obvious answer is try it and find out, but i am just curious if anyone has a dac that states the same isolation as the teac ud503, that has tried one of these gadgets and noticed a difference

 

imho the better designed and built a device is the less these accessories do to them. But it is difficult to say without testing. And also testing can take some days. I believe in break-in of components.

Here where i live it is practically impossible to try without buying.

Thanks a lot again, gino

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I definitely disagree. When Gordon Rankin developed the asynch USB connection for audio it was and is a very high quality method to playback audio from a computer. Before all this hyped BS about improving it USB was and is a very simple hassle free easy way of playing audio from computers. Audiophile loonies have turned it into a perceived problem.

 

There also was the ASIO USB drivers specifically for audio more than a decade ago.

 

http://imageshack.com/a/img922/457/UceofR.jpg

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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The only reason USB is even in the conversation is that the whole digital file storage/playback started with a lap top computer. When in the past did USB even be considered as a possible connection to anything audio? Not is the answer. But since we started with USB it continues to hang around as some distant unwelcomed Uncle of the audio community. Really when did USB do anything right!

 

Hi and thanks for the useful advice.

It seems that some recent units have indeed a really good implementation of the usb. I think it is just a matter of good design in the end.

However i have a question OT.

I see that in your wonderful system you use AES/EBU connection between source and dac. Why ? do you deem it better than coax and optical ?

Thanks a lot, gino

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Audiophile loonies have turned it into a perceived problem.

 

That's a bit harsh. I've no skin in the game (and I'm certainly not selling anything), but going DLNA with a $35 Pi actually sounded (still sounds) better than USB from a $2500 PC.

 

Maybe sellers need the hype (and the sales), but you have to credit end users with some intellect and the capacity to hear and decide for themselves.

 

Of course, it could all come down to my ear and my system, but not really. I loaned the Pi to a couple of my friends, one of whom has ordered a DS1515+ NAS to go fully DLNA and the other the Hans Beekhuyzen Raspberry Pi Digi+ with a LPS route.

 

Use a PC and plug in a USB DAC doesn't work anymore... or it doesn't work as well in the face of cheaper alternatives with better SQ.

 

The rich audiophile will obviously not need such tweaks... but not everyone has $18,000 for a W20.

Next to the Word of God, the noble art of music is the greatest treasure in the world - Martin Luther

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That's a bit harsh. I've no skin in the game (and I'm certainly not selling anything), but going DLNA with a $35 Pi actually sounded (still sounds) better than USB from a $2500 PC.

 

Maybe sellers need the hype (and the sales), but you have to credit end users with some intellect and the capacity to hear and decide for themselves.

 

Of course, it could all come down to my ear and my system, but not really. I loaned the Pi to a couple of my friends, one of whom has ordered a DS1515+ NAS to go fully DLNA and the other the Hans Beekhuyzen Raspberry Pi Digi+ with a LPS route.

 

Use a PC and plug in a USB DAC doesn't work anymore... or it doesn't work as well in the face of cheaper alternatives with better SQ.

 

The rich audiophile will obviously not need such tweaks... but not everyone has $18,000 for a W20.

 

And for those that do not have a degree in computer engineering so they can build and program a Pi. There is Auralic, Aries, Aries LE and mini, all are semi affordable. And all have multiple digital outputs. :)

[br]

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That's a bit harsh. I've no skin in the game (and I'm certainly not selling anything), but going DLNA with a $35 Pi actually sounded (still sounds) better than USB from a $2500 PC ...

 

Hi ! do you think that this has to be related more to HW or SW issues ?

i do not know the Raspberry.

I am still hoping to find a solution valid for both audio and video and for video i guess the Pi HW is too weak. This is the main reason why i have not adopted the Pi.

I have come to a conclusion ... the problem with PC is mainly due to the OS

In Windows that are just too many processes going on at the same time. And this causes problem with the data.

The evidence for me it is in the fact that i read of people who have deactivate processes not essential and the sound actually gets better.

Another evidence ... some months ago i bought a cheap mini pc running a light version of Win 8.1

The sound was much better than my much more powerful win 7 pc. Clearly better.

Unfortunately there were problem of overheating with the mini pc.

The HW resources were ridiculous in comparison with the win 7 pc.

I guess the Pi runs a very "essential" OS.

I wonder if this OS can run on a normal pc ... i would be very very curious to listen the Raspberry OS on a cheap laptop.

Maybe there will be a surprise.

Do you think that this would be possible ? i mean installing the Pi OS on a pc ?

Thanks and regards, gino

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Hi ! do you think that this has to be related more to HW or SW issues ?

i do not know the Raspberry.

I am still hoping to find a solution valid for both audio and video and for video i guess the Pi HW is too weak. This is the main reason why i have not adopted the Pi.

I have come to a conclusion ... the problem with PC is mainly due to the OS

In Windows that are just too many processes going on at the same time. And this causes problem with the data.

The evidence for me it is in the fact that i read of people who have deactivate processes not essential and the sound actually gets better.

Another evidence ... some months ago i bought a cheap mini pc running a light version of Win 8.1

The sound was much better than my much more powerful win 7 pc. Clearly better.

Unfortunately there were problem of overheating with the mini pc.

The HW resources were ridiculous in comparison with the win 7 pc.

I guess the Pi runs a very "essential" OS.

I wonder if this OS can run on a normal pc ... i would be very very curious to listen the Raspberry OS on a cheap laptop.

Maybe there will be a surprise.

Do you think that this would be possible ? i mean installing the Pi OS on a pc ?

Thanks and regards, gino

 

Could be both h/w and s/w. I'm however against the idea of using a PC and Windows and then sanitizing it for audio playback with the likes of JPLAY, Fidelizer, etc. Seems a waste of good resources and instead one is better served with going for something low end like a SBC/SOC instead.

 

Personally since using the Pi and Linux I do not see myself going back to either PC or Windows. I'm all for the likes of MinimServer and Moode.

 

The Pi always doesn't get much love on CA, but it also has a number of users and I've myself seen it in use with pretty decent rigs and direct to DACs like the Chord 2Qute (via USB in fact). In this particular scenario with the Chord 2Qute the problems with USB disappear and the 2Qute apparently has excellent galvanic isolation because I cannot fault the SQ in anyway.

 

The Pi OS Raspbian is a stripped down version of Debian, but I'm not sure how it runs on a traditional PC (or if it even does). I suppose you could always d/l the image and try it as Live CD. However, in the audio setting the OS runs headless and most of us in fact use audio optimized distros like Moode, Volumio, or MinimServer.

Next to the Word of God, the noble art of music is the greatest treasure in the world - Martin Luther

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Could be both h/w and s/w. I'm however against the idea of using a PC and Windows and then sanitizing it for audio playback with the likes of JPLAY, Fidelizer, etc. Seems a waste of good resources and instead one is better served with going for something low end like a SBC/SOC instead.

Personally since using the Pi and Linux I do not see myself going back to either PC or Windows.

I'm all for the likes of MinimServer and Moode.

The Pi always doesn't get much love on CA, but it also has a number of users and I've myself seen it in use with pretty decent rigs and direct to DACs like the Chord 2Qute (via USB in fact). In this particular scenario with the Chord 2Qute the problems with USB disappear and the 2Qute apparently has excellent galvanic isolation because I cannot fault the SQ in anyway.

 

Hi and thanks a lot for the very kind and valuable advice.

I have to say that i am completely lost with OS ... i am sure i would delete some essential process/programm.

There are tutorials but slimming down a OS is not feasible for me. So i should select a different OS.

 

The Pi OS Raspbian is a stripped down version of Debian, but I'm not sure how it runs on a traditional PC (or if it even does). I suppose you could always d/l the image and try it as Live CD.

However, in the audio setting the OS runs headless and most of us in fact use audio optimized distros like Moode, Volumio, or MinimServer

 

very interesting. I have seen that people tend to focus more the HW maybe because the SW is more tricky to understand.

There is the example of drivers and their stability.

I will see the HW requirements for the distros you mention. Maybe they can run on different platforms ...

Thanks a lot again.

Regards, gino

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Hi ! do you think that this has to be related more to HW or SW issues ?

i do not know the Raspberry.

I am still hoping to find a solution valid for both audio and video and for video i guess the Pi HW is too weak. This is the main reason why i have not adopted the Pi.

I have come to a conclusion ... the problem with PC is mainly due to the OS

In Windows that are just too many processes going on at the same time. And this causes problem with the data.

The evidence for me it is in the fact that i read of people who have deactivate processes not essential and the sound actually gets better.

Another evidence ... some months ago i bought a cheap mini pc running a light version of Win 8.1

The sound was much better than my much more powerful win 7 pc. Clearly better.

Unfortunately there were problem of overheating with the mini pc.

The HW resources were ridiculous in comparison with the win 7 pc.

I guess the Pi runs a very "essential" OS.

I wonder if this OS can run on a normal pc ... i would be very very curious to listen the Raspberry OS on a cheap laptop.

Maybe there will be a surprise.

Do you think that this would be possible ? i mean installing the Pi OS on a pc ?

Thanks and regards, gino

 

I'll mention it one more time. These "problems" are somewhere between about the most miniscule thing you could possible bother with and imagination of something that isn't so. You seemed to ask about what is wrong with USB, and were primed to believe it all.

 

You seem to be near the beginning so get a decent PC with an OS you are comfortable with. Connect the USB to a DAC. You will then be in a position to figure the finer details out for yourself. If you want someone to give you the best optimum answer and never touch it again, I may have just done that. If that isn't true, you still aren't going to get the answer you seek because there is no consensus on it.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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There are 4 wires on a USB connection : Data+, Data-, GND and +5v

 

When I first tried to make a 'data only' cable I tried just connecting Data+ and Data- wires, but this does not work, at least on the few USB connections that I tried.

 

I found (to my disgust) that it also needs the GND connection to work. This implies that the USB data connection is not properly balanced (as if it were, you would not need the GND - it would be optional).

 

I think that this is one of the root causes of USB problems - the involvement of the ground. That is why devices like the intona work so well - they break the ground link.

Director Mad Scientist Audio Ltd.

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There are 4 wires on a USB connection : Data+, Data-, GND and +5v

 

When I first tried to make a 'data only' cable I tried just connecting Data+ and Data- wires, but this does not work, at least on the few USB connections that I tried.

 

I found (to my disgust) that it also needs the GND connection to work. This implies that the USB data connection is not properly balanced (as if it were, you would not need the GND - it would be optional).

 

I think that this is one of the root causes of USB problems - the involvement of the ground. That is why devices like the intona work so well - they break the ground link.

It is balanced. However, device presence is indicated by pull-ups on the data lines (the combination indicating device speed), which is why some kind of ground reference is required. Additionally, some devices insist on the 5V being present in order to work. It is of course possible to provide the necessary signals without making a physical connection, but it takes more than simply cutting the GND and 5V wires.

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Yes after I discovered this I looked into why the GND weas needed, and I agree with you. But my point remains that the presence of the GND is one thing (maybe the main thing) that causes SQ degradation on USB. (But of course if you don't believe in any such degradation, the point is moot.)

 

I didn't use the correct term - by 'properly balanced' I meant 'does not need the ground to function'

Director Mad Scientist Audio Ltd.

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Let me relate my own experience.

I have always been skeptical about all these sound improvement gadgets, power cords etc until……..

I still use an old MacBook pro and iTunes to play tracks. I have tried other software players but none surpassed iTunes in my listening assessment.

Measurements are fine but a device with better measurements does not always sound better than a lesser device. You ask LP and tubes lovers and indeed many other types audiophiles as well.

Yes, until….

Until I acquired a Y USB cable with its own power supply to replace my general one. Discernible improvements in sound. So I thought, alright, quite explainable, because the mixing up of data and power supply in the standard USB cable fouls up the sound.

Until I bought a relocker to replace the DDC that pairs the DAC. Again discernible sound improvement. I thought, alright, a better and more stable clock than the one in the old DDC and the one in the computer as well. This was against the background that I always laughed at those buying very expensive clocks in the market.

Until a newer relocker came in. This new one incorporates xCore USB 2.0 and XMOS internal clock.

Until I bought something like a USB regenerator, called by another name of course.

Until I bought a LPS for the computer. I have always thought the stock power supply provided by Apple already gave stable and adequate voltage and ampere. The fact is this switching power supply muddies the sound, affecting the voice, the ambience/silence between instruments and loud climaxes.

Until I took my computer and ordinary DAC to compare with a 4-piece digital front end costing US$70K. I still use the stock switching power supply that comes with the DAC. The high end gear owner suggested I consider replacing the power supply with a linear one. This I did, and improvements are similar to those I mentioned above after changing the computer’s power supply.

A story from a converted non-believer.

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As always, I must endorse master's experience of greatly improved sound quality streaming wirelessly from a NAS to a Chromecast Audio. I don't even have a Pi. I just have Plex server installed on my NAS and stream straight to the Chromecast, using my phone as a controller. I don't know why it sounds better than a PC + USB. It just does.

Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.

- Einstein

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