Power supplies and cables - observations, considerations & commentary

[R1200CL]

His weekend I cobbled together a y-cable just to test FMC plus mR powered from my LPS-1. Yeah, pretty darn stunning...

 

(Secretly wishing for a midiRendu with built in FMC and LPS-1. I know this is not in Superdad’s plans. But still, all these boxes...)

 

Well, he could at least consider more power outputs from LPS-1, in order for us to avoid Y-splits [emoji6]

[barrows]

Well, he could at least consider more power outputs from LPS-1, in order for us to avoid Y-splits [emoji6]

 

Remember, anytime you connect two components to a single power supple you are defeating any isolation between those two components (they now share a ground, or 0 volt, reference).

The output regulator of the LPS-1 maxes out at 1A, and like most, will perform best operating below its maximum. I consider a 1A supply the absolute minimum recommended for use with the µRendu, and sharing this 1A supply between the µRendu and another component is pushing the limits a bit...

[R1200CL]

Remember, anytime you connect two components to a single power supple you are defeating any isolation between those two components (they now share a ground, or 0 volt, reference).

The output regulator of the LPS-1 maxes out at 1A, and like most, will perform best operating below its maximum. I consider a 1A supply the absolute minimum recommended for use with the µRendu, and sharing this 1A supply between the µRendu and another component is pushing the limits a bit...

 

What is the problem that an FMC and the MicroRendu share grounds as long as they are powered by the LPS-1, and what is then the difference if the MicroRendu do Vbus and power an USB device ?

 

Which limits is being pushed ? The MicroRendu or LPS-1 ?

The LPA-1 will give a red light if it's pushed over its limit. Right ?

 

Are you really sure what you are talking about ? I believe John S., more or less gave his blessing to use the LPS-1 that way. Also Alex has endorsed the use of a Y-split. And so far only positive feedbacks with Y-splits.

 

I disagree in your 1A statement as a general advice for the MicroRendu .

As a minimum you have to distinguish between if it's with or without Vbus. If I remember correctly the MicroRendu draw less than 200 mA.

 

But of cause now you can sell more LPS-1 to those that want to be sure....

[Freann]

…and sharing this 1A supply between the µRendu and another component is pushing the limits a bit...

Yes, I know. I used a 100mbit FMC in hope that it consumed less power. Seems to work very well, although the LPS-1 gets pretty hot.

[Freann]

Are you really sure what you are talking about ?

 

Look at his signature.

[barrows]

What is the problem that an FMC and the MicroRendu share grounds as long as they are powered by the LPS-1, and what is then the difference if the MicroRendu do Vbus and power an USB device ?

 

As soon as you share the supply, all the noise present in either device will be shared, and this noise will also be shared via the ground connection to the µRendu, and on to the DAC's USB receiver. Whether or not sharing this noise will be a problem will depend on how much noise there is and what type of noise is it. I do not know if specifically the FMC will be a problem, I am only pointing out the potential for problems.

 

Which limits is being pushed ? The MicroRendu or LPS-1 ?

The LPA-1 will give a red light if it's pushed over its limit. Right ?

 

This is a question for the LPS-1 folks, I have nothing to do with that. In any case, the output is limited to 1A, which is the max load allowed for the output regulator used. In any case, before you even push a regulator "over its limit" performance will drop as it approaches its limit.

 

Are you really sure what you are talking about ? I believe John S., more or less gave his blessing to use the LPS-1 that way. Also Alex has endorsed the use of a Y-split. And so far only positive feedbacks with Y-splits.

 

Yes, I am sure. I am not saying "it will not work" and I would not contradict JS regarding his product either. All I am saying is that the best performance will occur when the µRendu does not share a supply with any other component.

 

I disagree in your 1A statement as a general advice for the MicroRendu .

As a minimum you have to distinguish between if it's with or without Vbus. If I remember correctly the MicroRendu draw less than 200 mA.

 

I am being careful here. How much current the µRendu uses is dependent to a large degree by how much current is drawn by a DAC from the µRendu. My measurements show the µRendu alone drawing around 400 mA, but the current use of the µRendu also depends on how it is being used and at what sample rate (DLNA, NAA, etc). Since a DAC could draw up to 500 mA, one can see how it would be wise to be careful how much one loads up the supply. Personally, I would not be expecting top performance from a power supply when one draws say > 75% of its capability. Power supply noise will go up with current drawn.

 

But of cause now you can sell more LPS-1 to those that want to be sure....

 

Not sure what you mean, I do not sell anything myself, and have no interest in selling the LPS-1?

[Evo1668]

I thought from reading JS posts that whilst you can use the LPS1 to power more than one device within the 1A current output limits. Doing so, compromises the isolation of ground loops between the components...

personally an FMC unit between switch/microRendu I found to be sounding worse when using the microRendu powered by LPS1. The FMC units now sit between Switch/NAS in my office, which did sound better to my ears. To be fair, when FMC was before the microRendu I never tried powering both it and microrendu from a single LPS1

[R1200CL]

Not sure what you mean, I do not sell anything myself, and have no interest in selling the LPS-1?

 

You are listed as a part of the Sonore team right ?

 

http://www.sonore.us/contact.html

[R1200CL]

Look at his signature.

 

Signature does not show up in the CA app.....[emoji3]

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Computer Audiophile

[vortecjr]

You are listed as a part of the Sonore team right ?

 

Sonore - Contacts

 

He is just trying to be informative so people can make an educated decision.

[R1200CL]

To be fair, when FMC was before the microRendu I never tried powering both it and microrendu from a single LPS1

 

You may try adding the FMC, if it's a 10/100, before the MicroRendu and power it from the LPS-1 using a Y-split. You may come to another conclusion.

As others also have reported.

 

My FMC was neither any help with power from a smps.

[barrows]

You are listed as a part of the Sonore team right ?

 

Sonore - Contacts

 

Yes. But I am not sure what you are asking? I have nothing to do with the LPS-1, that is a product produced by Uptone Audio, not Sonore. If anything, I am more interested in promoting Sonore products, but my posts here are not to promote, but to educate folks on getting the best sonic performance possible.

[Blake]

Are you really sure what you are talking about ?

 

Wow.... As Ice Cube would say "Check yourself before you wreck yourself".

 

Yes, I have a sneaking suspicion Barrows just may know a thing or two about this topic.

[R1200CL]

Wow.... As Ice Cube would say "Check yourself before you wreck yourself".

 

Yes, I have a sneaking suspicion Barrows just may know a thing or two about this topic.

 

Well, so far he has not given a good explanation to my doubts or questions. That tells me something. And I'm not necessarily right at all, but indicating that that LPS-1 will lose it purpose bye using a Y-split really needs a very good explanation.

 

What if you put LPS-1 + MicroRendu + FMC + DAC into one unit. Would ever anyone then talk about broken isolation ?

 

Another possible example is the Berkely where their philosophy is to have a separate USB to spdif converter. Now, start to discuss isolation issues there [emoji3]

 

Maybe add a Jensen transformer in the signal path ?

 

http://www.jensen-transformers.com/what-is-a-ground-loop/

[vortecjr]

Well, so far he has not given a good explanation to my doubts or questions. That tells me something. And I'm not necessarily right at all, but indicating that that LPS-1 will lose it purpose bye using a Y-split really needs a very good explanation.

 

What if you put LPS-1 + MicroRendu + FMC + DAC into one unit. Would ever anyone then talk about broken isolation ?

 

Another possible example is the Berkeley where their philosophy is to have a separate USB to spdif converter. Now, start to discuss isolation issues there [emoji3]

 

Maybe add a Jensen transformer in the signal path ?

 

What is a ground loop | Jensen Transformers

 

Barrows said, "...anytime you connect two components to a single power supply you are defeating any isolation between those two components..." This is an unfortunately fact of life and it doesn't really require a very good explanation. Also, we are not the ones promoting the use of these devices so we are not obligated to entertain the discussion on them. Our obligation is to inform you that using the y-adapter two power the microRendu and these devices may not be a good idea. Does that mean you can't do it...I'll leave that up to you.

 

FYI I'm power my microRendu and a DAC from the same power supply. I was warned by Alex that it would break any inherent isolation between them. I thanked him for letting me know and I did it anyway:) Why because it's a temporary solution and because IMHO the advantages of the linear supply out way the disadvantages of the DACs on board SMPS.

 

PS If you want to discuss Berkeley and Jensen products please start a new thread in the general forum.

[JohnSwenson]

OK OK,

some details on powering more than one device off a single LPS-1.

 

You cannot harm the LPS-1 itself in any way. If you pull more current out of it than it is designed to handle it shuts down, the LED blinks red. It starts up again every 5 seconds to see if the load is still pulling too much current. I have done extensive listening tests at different current levels and have not heard any difference with different current loads. (hook up a microRendu and adjustable resistor, change the resistor to add additional current, no change in sound)

 

There are three issues with running more than one device off a single LPS-1:

 

1) current draw

2) isolation issues

3) noise modulation

 

#1, see the above, as long as the combination is less than what the LPS-1 is designed to handle (1A) there is no sonic degradation

 

#2 isolation issues, this is far more complicated than can be listed in one bullet point, go read the stuff I have written in various places here on CA for the background. If in doubt, draw a diagram of your system, both AC line and digital/audio interconnects and see where the leakage loops can happen. Put an LPS-1 in the appropriate place to block loops. If your system already has isolation in some places, powering both sides of an existing isolation with the same LPS-1 will negate that isolation. For example powering both the upstream and downstream ends of a fiber link with the same LPS-1 shorts out the isolation due to the fiber. That may or may not degrade SQ. You have to try and see (err hear). Powering the end of a fiber link connected to the Ethernet jack of the microRendu with the same LPS-1 as powers the microRendu does not cause a decrease in isolation, it may increase isolation depending on what the other power supply was and how the Ethernet is connected (shields connected etc), it may or may not change SQ for good or bad, depending on #3 below.

 

#3 noise modulation. Any time you have two devices on the same supply, changes in load current from one device can change the voltage on the shared supply, increasing the noise the other device sees. In practice you wind up with both devices changing the noise on the shared wires, so both devices see the noise from the combined load changes of the two devices. The LPS-1 has a very low output impedance which means load changes cause small changes in output voltage, but they are still there. Thus if you have one LPS-1 supplying an FMC and a microRendu, they are both going to be seeing greater noise than either by itself would see, but that still may wind up sounding better than another supply you might use to power the FMC.

 

So in summary, there are no hard and fast rules. You certainly CAN run multiple devices off a single LPS-1 as long as it can handle the combined current. In pretty much any case things will probably sound better if each device was powered by its own LPS-1, but if you don't have multiple LPS-1s go ahead and try putting two or more devices off a single LPS-1, it may sound better than the alternative, it may not, you won't harm anything by trying.

 

The above is assuming the multiple devices can all be run from the same voltage.

 

John S.

[R1200CL]

Jesus

 

Maybe start a new thread ?

 

Can the Sonic Transporter i5 be used as a HQPlayer HW base ? Which I guess require to install Ubuntu or similar. Or can the Sonicorbiter be used ?

Or any plans to make a Linux HQPlayer computer ? As I expect Linux to be the best OS for HQPlayer.

Or maybe even design something with the embedded HQplayer ? Which I guess would need an app in order to be controlled. Unless one is a skilled Linux person.

 

I'm not thinking of HQPlayer as a stand alone player, but only to be used together with Roon and MicroRendu or any other NAA endpoint.

 

I understand that the i5 may not powerful enough, but I'm only doing PCM for the time being.

[vortecjr]

Jesus

 

Maybe start a new thread ?

 

Can the Sonic Transporter i5 be used as a HQPlayer HW base ? Which I guess require to install Ubuntu or similar. Or can the Sonicorbiter be used ?

Or any plans to make a Linux HQPlayer computer ? As I expect Linux to be the best OS for HQPlayer.

Or maybe even design something with the embedded HQplayer ? Which I guess would need an app in order to be controlled. Unless one is a skilled Linux person.

 

I'm not thinking of HQPlayer as a stand alone player, but only to be used together with Roon and MicroRendu or any other NAA endpoint.

 

I understand that the i5 may not powerful enough, but I'm only doing PCM for the time being.

 

We have talked about it, but there are no plans to make it. If you want Roon and HQ Player Andrew at SGC can build you a Windows based machine that will support it. I don't remember if it's on his website or if it's custom built to order.

[jtwrace]

We have talked about it, but there are no plans to make it. If you want Roon and HQ Player Andrew at SGC can build you a Windows based machine that will support it. I don't remember if it's on his website or if it's custom built to order.

https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/collections/custom-units/products/sonictransporter-roon-server-hqplayer

[vortecjr]

https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/collections/custom-units/products/sonictransporter-roon-server-hqplayer

That's the one...

[Distinctive]

https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/collections/custom-units/products/sonictransporter-roon-server-hqplayer

Nice, but I would prefer if it came with ripping possibilities for a one-box solution.

I wonder how the uR (NAA) and this one works (SQ) compared with the MGS.

[vortecjr]

Nice, but I would prefer if it came with ripping possibilities for a one-box solution.

I wonder how the uR (NAA) and this one works (SQ) compared with the MGS.

Just email him...he is very flexible. This is a Windows machine so there is no automatic ripping capability. For ripping you will need to install software and manage it yourself.

[jtwrace]

My Vinnie Rossi MINI arrived today and is powering my µRendu as I type this. ;-)

[theppd]

My Vinnie Rossi MINI arrived today and is powering my µRendu as I type this. ;-)

So any findings already?

[jtwrace]

So any findings already?

 

See if I can get this right after staying up waaay too late last night into this morning listening. I previously had the UpTone Audio JS-2 for my µRendu. After getting the Vinnie Rossi LIO and trying them both powering the Rendu I decided to just use the LIO to power the µRendu. Using the JS-2 either at 7Vdc or 9Vdc compared to the LIO at 7Vdc didn't really change anything so I went with the LIO.

 

Enter the Vinnie Rossi MINI. I had the MINI configured at 9Vdc. There is no doubt in my mind that the MINI at 9Vdc takes the µRendu performance up a notch when using the MINI compared to the JS-2. The micro detail and just "ease" is better. The MINI proves that an all in one solution (Linear Charging and Large Ultracapaacitors) providing 9vdc is the way to go. My µRendu isn't any warmer.

 

Vinnie Rossi MINI is HIGHLY recommended!

 

Vinnie Rossi MINI PURE DC-4-EVR Power Supply