Power supplies and cables - observations, considerations & commentary

[barrows]

Ok received the Sonore Signature series power supply with Synergistic fuses yesterday and have been doing a lot of listening to music. Is it better then the ifi power supply? I would not switch back, everything is better and clearer, voices are very realistic, over all its excellent. When I think about high end music I've heard at audio shows, I feel my system is right there with them in sound quality with the addition of the Sonore power supply. Now what am I going to do with my old caps zuma v3 server & power supply?

 

Keep it powered up, it should sound very good out of the box, but will improve over the first couple of hundred hours or so!

[barrows]

Don't think I hear the same in my system.

 

 

 

And what do you gain by energizing the LPS with the battery pack ?

 

 

Actually, I think using a regulated battery based supply is likely the very best way to power the Uptone LPS-1. Say a 10 AH 12 VDC LiFePO4 pack regulated to the best input voltage would be perfect. This way one can only charge the battery when not listening, and keep the charger unplugged during playback.

[barrows]

Hi Barrows, my understanding is that the Supercaps in the Uptone LPS -1 are essentially batteries with lower capacity. They are disconnected from the charger during use (discharge). What is the benefit of charging batteries with batteries?

 

Because the charge cycle of the Super capacitors is short, the charger (actually just another power supply) needs to be connected and powered up at all times. So the charger becomes the problem, typically most will use a wall wart SMPS based charger for this, and hence one will have all the problems associated with placing an affordable (read cheap as *hit) SMPS in close proximity to the audio system: it will broadcast a fair amount of interference into the air, and spray a bunch of nasty harmonics back on to the AC line to be shared with one's precious music signal via DAC and amp power supplies. By powering the LPS-1 with batteries, one eliminates any possibility of the supply causing problems with the rest of the audio system and the AC line. Or, one could build a nice linear based charger, either way, a good linear power supply, or a big LiFePO4 battery pack with regulator and charger, there is going to be some additional expense.

[barrows]

just got the Sonore Signature PSU to run with the microRendu. Bought the fuse upgrade and the recommended power cord. I immediately heard improvements in depth of sound over the iFi PSU.

 

But overall have been disappointed so far. Maybe it needs to burn in, but despite the increased resolution, added depth and some nice audio effects, I am finding it very uninvolving and harsh. I find myself listening to music less than with the iFi or the Aurender N100 I had previously. Where I thought the PSU would reduce some of the harshness and vocal distortion I heard with the iFi, it has made it worse. I am turning down the volume and watching more TV. Van Morrisons voice repeatedly crackles on high notes where it didn't before. The DSD of Elton Johns Tumbleweed Connection, which I had previously found to be an excellent recording and totally engaging, is now harsh and uninvolving.

 

Maybe I'm doing something wrong, or don't know what I'm doing, which is quite possible, but so far the microRendu and the Sonore PSU so far are a big disappointment.

 

My system: Audience power conditioner with a WireWorld Silver Eclipse 7 going into a CablePro Revelation power strip with all the bells and whistles, an Audioquest Vodka Ethernet cable between a sonic transporter Roon Server and the microRendu and a Curious USB cable connecting the microRendu and a Bricasti M1SE DAC. WireWorld Silver Eclipse RCAs between the M1 and an ATC CA2 preamp, and Nordoest Fry 2 XLR interconnects between the preamp and ATC powered studio 20s II. The DAC power cord is a WireWorld silver eclipse 7 and is connected directly to the power conditioner. I'm using AudioArt Classic 1 power cords for the preamp and speakers. All components, including the sonicTransporter are connected to the CablePro power strip. I'm using a Synology 216se NAS as the source and it is connected to a different circuit.

 

any suggestions are appreciated. I'm tempted to upgrade the ca2 to a tube preamp, but I'm reticent to invest any more money in this.. It's a shame, but I am enjoying music less than when I had a Linn Majik DSM connected to Paradigm Studio 20s.

 

As you note increased resolution and depth (increased depth only comes from increased resolution and a lower noise floor), it appears that the µRendu is performing technically better. My feeling is that you need to address something else in your system. It is not that unusual to make a change to a system, which increases resolution, only to find that the increased resolution has unearthed a problem that one could not hear before. The more resolution one has, the more the system will be able to reveal problems. Have you tried going direct from the Bricasti to the amp via XLR this would eliminate your single ended connection...

[barrows]

When the ultracap LS-1 will be available, I would be very interested in a comparison between the combo Ultracap LS-1 + MCRU 7.5/2.5 V and the Sonore Signature Series power supply regarding their influence on SQ enhancement.

 

The investment for a Sonore Sign. power supply is about 2.5 fold of the investment for the above mentioned combo.

 

 

 

I would like to read your opinion about this competition.

 

Jörg

 

Who's opinon would you like to read? Unfortunately, such comparisons are often going to be system dependent (especially if we assume that both options are going to operate as specified/expected). So it may not be valid to assume that one's own results will be similar to someone else's results given a different system context. The differences which may exhibit themselves in these types of comparisons are really the types of differences which need to be evaluated in one's own system.

The reason for this, is that every system is flawed in some aspect, and sometimes, a valid technical improvement, may actually sound "worse" as it may highlight a flaw in the system (whereas the previous approach contributed to hiding that flaw).

 

I am not going to suggest one approach is better than another here, my point is just to take other's observations of such things with a healthy grain of salt.

[barrows]

As an aside... Answer this question: Why does a better power supply make a µRendu perform better?

 

I would submit that the answer is: less noise in the power supply and ground planes, means cleaner power supply rails, ultimately, to the masterclock. And every clock performs better with clean supply rails. This means lower jitter. So, perhaps yes, that jitter is what matters here...

 

Believe me, when Crystek (manufacturer of high precision low phase noise clocks) produces the specifications for their various clock models, they are using a very, very clean power supply.

[barrows]

Poor Amir. I suspect he does not quite understand how to apply the scientific method to an audio component. The Scientific method includes: observations (in our case, listening), theory (speculation as to cause of the observed effect), and then, proof (in our case, measurements). Even Bruno Putzeys, a very skilled audio engineer who designs first via measurements, admits that he then listens to the component, and if something sounds wrong, he then returns to the measurements to attempt to find the problem he observed through listening. Mr. Putzeys mentions that he sometimes has to find new ways of measuring components under development when he hears a problem his initial measurements did not show.

There is ample observed evidence of the µRendu increasing sonic performance vs. other devices. So the scientific task at hand would be to develop the measurements which prove what is responsible for the improved performance, and not applying relatively simplistic and incomplete measurements. Measuring jitter at very low levels is brought with problems, even the (likely) most experienced person at this, John Atkinson, repeatedly has remarked how difficult it can be to get a meaningful result, and the noise floor of standard laptops is likely not adequate to make such measurements when the DUT is at the limits of the technically possible performance (does one actually believe that a standard laptop has the performance necessary for this measurement, when the reason for the existence of the µRendu is to outperform a standard computer in the first place?).

[barrows]

actually, in my experience, digital products are more sensitive to power implementation than analog ones.

[barrows]

Could you expand?

 

Not sure what you are looking for, I thought the statement was entirely complete in meaning.

[barrows]

Just looking for a little more insight. While the statement was entirely clear in meaning, it didn't do much to further my understanding of why... Very few solid explanations out there in the wild as to why only digital audio equipment seems to benefit from upgraded linear power supplies, while the rest of the worlds digital equipment doesn't seem to.

 

What's the aim of the power supply design? How do you measure their effectiveness? I just can't get my head round it, and struggle to shake the feeling that we (consumers) might be deluding ourselves....

 

 

Well, for one thing, clocks require a very low noise power supply to produce a low phase noise output. Additionally, a low impedance supply/high speed power supply will help stop high frequency digital noise from propagating back through the supply and contaminating the analog side of things. These are just two examples. If you do not think power supplies matter in the "rest of the world" you might want to take a look at the medical instrumentation field, or other very high precision scientific measuring instruments. For these, power supplies also matter a lot in order to achieve high precision results. It is not only the audio world where these things matter. Now your washing machine is probably not going to get your clothes any cleaner if you upgraded its supply...

[barrows]

I switched the ifi for the Meanwell and the Meanwell is dead quiet. I'll see if I can get ifi to check the psu this weekend at RMAF. And I'll be in the market for a LPSU.

 

Rust: please remember to come see us (Sonore) at RMAF, Tower Room 3021!

[barrows]

I'm looking to test with batteries before ordering the LPS-1 :-)

 

I'm doing the same thing. 6AA NiMh batteries make a huge difference over iFi. Such a difference I'm afraid I will be disappointed by a linear PSU now. So I 'll keep the AA batteries for the dedicated listening hours now and think of buying the LPS-1 [emoji1].

 

mR, Job INTegrated, Penaudio Cenya's.

 

Batteries are almost always not going to be the best option. NiMh batteries have more noise than a really good AC based supply, and (probably more important), their output impedance is quite a bit higher. Also, the output impedance of batteries gets higher as the discharge. The only batteries I would even consider using for the µRendu would be good quality LiFePO4 cells, as the have very low output impedance. If you have better performance with NiMh batteries vs. a linear supply, your linear supply is not very good, or (more likely) it is creating a ground loop (as batteries are always floating and will defeat the loop).

[barrows]

I read the Vinnie's pages. I'm under the impression that John's design and Vinnie's is quite different. But what do I know. One important thing is the DC leakage current, that is not mentioned at all.

 

I would assume someone will soon be able to compare the Mini with the LPS-1, using the MicroRendu.

If they perform equally, I would still prefer the LPS-1, cause of price. I rather use power conditioners (Isol-8 and Isotek), instead of LPS, as I think this is a cheaper and better solution.

 

I would not be surprised if John's design is sold as a OEM to other preamp and DAC manufacturers.

 

Maybe a combo could feed the Auralic's Aries, which would be a very good marked for UpTone Audio.

Power requirements: http://support.auralic.com/hc/en-us/articles/205863008-What-is-the-Specificaion-of-ARIES-MINI-Power-Input

 

I'm sure if there is a marked for it, UpTone can take the JS LPS power and combine with a box with one and two LPS-1. You beat Vinnie's design in voltage, but but maybe not in ampér, though he is not explicit saying 2,5 A within the whole range from 3,3 to 12 V.

 

It will be interesting to see what products UpTone will come up with the next 12 months. And Alex already promised a surprise soon

 

What makes you think this?

[barrows]

Well, he could at least consider more power outputs from LPS-1, in order for us to avoid Y-splits [emoji6]

 

Remember, anytime you connect two components to a single power supple you are defeating any isolation between those two components (they now share a ground, or 0 volt, reference).

The output regulator of the LPS-1 maxes out at 1A, and like most, will perform best operating below its maximum. I consider a 1A supply the absolute minimum recommended for use with the µRendu, and sharing this 1A supply between the µRendu and another component is pushing the limits a bit...

[barrows]

What is the problem that an FMC and the MicroRendu share grounds as long as they are powered by the LPS-1, and what is then the difference if the MicroRendu do Vbus and power an USB device ?

 

As soon as you share the supply, all the noise present in either device will be shared, and this noise will also be shared via the ground connection to the µRendu, and on to the DAC's USB receiver. Whether or not sharing this noise will be a problem will depend on how much noise there is and what type of noise is it. I do not know if specifically the FMC will be a problem, I am only pointing out the potential for problems.

 

Which limits is being pushed ? The MicroRendu or LPS-1 ?

The LPA-1 will give a red light if it's pushed over its limit. Right ?

 

This is a question for the LPS-1 folks, I have nothing to do with that. In any case, the output is limited to 1A, which is the max load allowed for the output regulator used. In any case, before you even push a regulator "over its limit" performance will drop as it approaches its limit.

 

Are you really sure what you are talking about ? I believe John S., more or less gave his blessing to use the LPS-1 that way. Also Alex has endorsed the use of a Y-split. And so far only positive feedbacks with Y-splits.

 

Yes, I am sure. I am not saying "it will not work" and I would not contradict JS regarding his product either. All I am saying is that the best performance will occur when the µRendu does not share a supply with any other component.

 

I disagree in your 1A statement as a general advice for the MicroRendu .

As a minimum you have to distinguish between if it's with or without Vbus. If I remember correctly the MicroRendu draw less than 200 mA.

 

I am being careful here. How much current the µRendu uses is dependent to a large degree by how much current is drawn by a DAC from the µRendu. My measurements show the µRendu alone drawing around 400 mA, but the current use of the µRendu also depends on how it is being used and at what sample rate (DLNA, NAA, etc). Since a DAC could draw up to 500 mA, one can see how it would be wise to be careful how much one loads up the supply. Personally, I would not be expecting top performance from a power supply when one draws say > 75% of its capability. Power supply noise will go up with current drawn.

 

But of cause now you can sell more LPS-1 to those that want to be sure....

 

Not sure what you mean, I do not sell anything myself, and have no interest in selling the LPS-1?

[barrows]

You are listed as a part of the Sonore team right ?

 

Sonore - Contacts

 

Yes. But I am not sure what you are asking? I have nothing to do with the LPS-1, that is a product produced by Uptone Audio, not Sonore. If anything, I am more interested in promoting Sonore products, but my posts here are not to promote, but to educate folks on getting the best sonic performance possible.