Maybe spending stupid amounts of money on power cords isn't entirely harmless

[Allan F]

Is that how you define "dual" in your part of the world? I was picturing folks trying to whip eachother with their power cords until one party submits.

I think you mean "duel" rather than "dual". Regardless, my tongue in cheek comment was simply expanding on the analogy of choosing to resolve disputes by resorting to violence as opposed to using the legal system to do so.

[Allan F]

"Immoral"! In a world that has Monsanto, the Koch brothers' enterprises and many others of the same kind, you put all of this energy into wiping from existence, a company that makes audio products for audiophiles and hobbyists...

 

Sensible priorities...

What!? Do you actually expect perspective to accompany moral outrage? Get real.

[wdw]

You guys are completely nuts....the anger and rage is palpable. Sounds like you'd all like to drive up to Nordost HQ and burn their building down. Other than making cables, some of which are exceedingly expensive, they have done nothing. There is a post on a web page alleging wrong doing but no proof of it and the poster has an obvious animus for audiophile cabling so very likely to believe them doing wrong.

Save it for something of consequence, please.

[jabbr]

I think you mean "duel" rather than "dual". Regardless, my tongue in cheek comment was simply expanding on the analogy of choosing to resolve disputes by resorting to violence as opposed to using the legal system to do so.

 

Ha! ... and I have no idea whether I misspelt it or my phone's "auto-incorrect" did that for me:) In any case while I generally promote nonviolent dispute resolution, I think power cable discussions are best dealt with as a duel of dual cords -- one in each hand and swung deftly...

[gmgraves]

You guys are completely nuts....the anger and rage is palpable. Sounds like you'd all like to drive up to Nordost HQ and burn their building down. Other than making cables, some of which are exceedingly expensive, they have done nothing. There is a post on a web page alleging wrong doing but no proof of it and the poster has an obvious animus for audiophile cabling so very likely to believe them doing wrong.

Save it for something of consequence, please.

 

They lie. It shouldn't be encouraged.

[wdw]

They lie. It shouldn't be encouraged.

How in the hell do you know this?

[plissken]

You guys are completely nuts....the anger and rage is palpable. Sounds like you'd all like to drive up to Nordost HQ and burn their building down. Other than making cables, some of which are exceedingly expensive, they have done nothing. There is a post on a web page alleging wrong doing but no proof of it and the poster has an obvious animus for audiophile cabling so very likely to believe them doing wrong.

Save it for something of consequence, please.

 

I can't speak for others but my angle is a quick cash grab. Both parties put up a cool grand or two and when you can't hear any difference you just slide it on over to my side of the table and I sees you later.

 

For some reason it's not so quick. You can't even give money away now days.

[wgscott]

How in the hell do you know this?

 

Because they make claims that, if true, would violate fundamental laws of physics, including conservation of energy. That is why they resort to legal threats rather than simply demonstrating their critics are wrong.

[wdw]

Because they make claims that, if true, would violate fundamental laws of physics, including conservation of energy. That is why they resort to legal threats rather than simply demonstrating their critics are wrong.

You're using Newtonian physics in this discussion? Haven't you read some of the more salient issues discussed here on propagation and delay in the dialectic, etc...no EE but there is more here than Newtonian dogma.

[wgscott]

I'm a scientist. I am well aware of what Newtonian mechanics (or as you would say, "dogma") is, and the examples where it cannot provide an accurate description of physical reality. Power cables are not relativistic or quantum-mechanical devices. I also am quite familiar with the laws of thermodynamics, and their universal applicability.

 

No, there really isn't anything more here than "Newtonian dogma" and "Maxwellian dogma" (classical electrodynamics.) Sorry.

[jabbr]

I'm a scientist. I am well aware of what Newtonian mechanics (or as you would say, "dogma") is, and the examples where it cannot provide an accurate description of physical reality. Power cables are not relativistic or quantum-mechanical devices. I also am quite familiar with the laws of thermodynamics, and their universal applicability.

 

No, there really isn't anything more here than "Newtonian dogma." Sorry.

 

To expand on this, and correct me if you disagree -- well that goes without saying --specifically regarding electrodynamics covered a bit later than Newton -- those being Maxwell's equations are considered the *most preserved* of classical equations moving into the quantum age. Quantum electrodynamics gives a much clearer view of *why* copper is more conductive than iron, for example but nonetheless V=IR, and so sometimes my friends: a cable is just a cable

[wgscott]

I added in classical electrodynamics before you posted. Sorry.

 

Maxwell's equations are kind of an interesting thing. Relativity (which really is a revision/correction of Newtonian physics) was originally an interpretation of the Lorentz transformations (which are invariant with respect to the Maxwell's equations). So the relativistic part of quantum electrodynamics is completely consistent with the classical theory. The difference comes in when you introduce quantum theory. The electric and magnetic vector potentials in classical electrodynamics aren't ascribed any physical reality, but are constrained only by what their derivatives (the electric and magnetic fields) are. In QED, they actually take on a life of their own, so to speak, that show up in unusual situations like the Aharonov–Bohm effect.

 

That's why I always purchase BlueJeans Cables. They are guaranteed to be gauge invariant.

[17629]

First off, no need to be rude. Second, it's not from an article off the Internet -- I own a VW and had my ECU updated with third party software and watched them do it. As for what software to run, see https://www.goapr.com/ (they provide software specific to the vehicle -- it replicates much from the car manufacture but the data is different for key variables). I wasn't talking about pulling codes - that software would be here Ross-Tech: VCDS. There are no specific security measures but one thing that's usually done is to pickup the VIN number before the rewrite, so that it can be recoded. Obviously, you have no familiarity with VWs or Audis.

 

 

Or maybe you're the one that's not familiar with VW. The software you refer to is not 3rd party. Its OE. All auto makers outsource a huge portion of their cars to be made by other companies. Tires-Goodyear, Radio-Sony, Glass-Corning, etc. The just don't have the ability to make every piece that goes into the cars. In this particular case, VW didn't write the software for your car themselves. They contracted Ross Tech to do it for them. That makes it OE and not 3rd party. This if from the website you list.

 

"Official Factory Repair Information

Official Factory Repair Information for VW, Audi, Seat, Skoda and VAG based Bentley products is available directly from the manufacturers. erWin does include Repair Manuals, Wiring Diagrams, Technical Service Bulletins (TSB) / Technical Product Information (TPI), Vehicle Identification (by VIN) and much more. These sources are broken down by vehicle market including RoW and NAR:"

 

Not only that, Ross Tech is contracted to make the interface (VCDS) that is used by some of the manufacturers. They re-brand and list them as factory SST's. I know Ford and Mazda interfaces come from Ross Tech. They call it a VCM instead of VCDS, but its the same basic tool.

 

If you still don't believe me after all this, I don't know what to say except that I'm not wasting any more time arguing with you. If you're just looking to win the argument for the sake of winning the argument, then fine, you can win. I really don't care.

[wdw]

I'm a scientist. I am well aware of what Newtonian mechanics (or as you would say, "dogma") is, and the examples where it cannot provide an accurate description of physical reality. Power cables are not relativistic or quantum-mechanical devices. I also am quite familiar with the laws of thermodynamics, and their universal applicability.

 

No, there really isn't anything more here than "Newtonian dogma" and "Maxwellian dogma" (classical electrodynamics.) Sorry.

 

 

No doubt....just must imagine there are many things yet unexplained. Certainty is, at times, a kind of stupidity. How many times has this been told as a story of earlier scientists standing somewhere making some statement.

[jabbr]

That's why I always purchase BlueJeans Cables. They are guaranteed to be gauge invariant.

 

Careful, I've known people getting into trouble stripping the dielectric off blue jeans-- don't try that on campus.

[wgscott]

No doubt....just must imagine there are many things yet unexplained. Certainty is, at times, a kind of stupidity. How many times has this been told as a story of earlier scientists standing somewhere making some statement.

 

In cases where Newtonian physics is demonstrably wrong -- say for example, the photo-electric effect, there are easily measurable effects that cannot be explained. In the case of cables, no one is able to measure or even reliably reproduce these claimed effects.

[jabbr]

No doubt....just must imagine there are many things yet unexplained. Certainty is, at times, a kind of stupidity. How many times has this been told as a story of earlier scientists standing somewhere making some statement.

 

Not in electronics. That said there are clear areas of real innovation-- q-bit computers, as well as transistor design. Cables might affect some things but frankly there are so many different really cool transistors and amplifier designs etc that have such a string effect on SQ that I can't spend any serious time looking for subtle differences in cables-- I've got my balanced power transformers , and mostly done with it (aside from the variety of power supply designs)

[junker]

I believe the classical vs. quantum nature of Nordost cable technology was conclusively resolved during the 5th Solvay Conference! =)

 

I added in classical electrodynamics before you posted. Sorry.

 

Maxwell's equations are kind of an interesting thing. Relativity (which really is a revision/correction of Newtonian physics) was originally an interpretation of the Lorentz transformations (which are invariant with respect to the Maxwell's equations). So the relativistic part of quantum electrodynamics is completely consistent with the classical theory. The difference comes in when you introduce quantum theory. The electric and magnetic vector potentials in classical electrodynamics aren't ascribed any physical reality, but are constrained only by what their derivatives (the electric and magnetic fields) are. In QED, they actually take on a life of their own, so to speak, that show up in unusual situations like the Aharonov–Bohm effect.

 

That's why I always purchase BlueJeans Cables. They are guaranteed to be gauge invariant.

[wgscott]

[wdw]

Not in electronic)

How can you be so sure....I am reasonably intellectually principled, technically minded and can hear improvements in the heirachy of Nordost cabling. Whether they merit the price asked is a separate thread and excepting the rudeness of most of the assembled, these are real and valid experiences.

Here it comes...duck...!

[junker]

I always appreciated this article on the subject from Nelson Pass:

 

https://passlabs.com/articles/speaker-cables-science-or-snake-oil

 

P.S.: In fair disclosure I am a huge fan my self terminated tinned Belden 9497 speaker wire, and Belden 8412 / Switchcraft RCA connectors. Well made, robust, reasonably priced, and the speaker wires are somewhat similar to what my vintage speakers had in the 60's but 16 gauge rather than spindly oxidized 20 gauge. And my integrated amp and homemade SUT both use low-mass simple nickel plated female Switchcraft RCAs. Switchcraft on Switchcraft has as much of a precise and tight fit as I could possible want or expect...especially for the reasonable price and bulletproof build quality.

 

My issue is simply with the strong arm suppression tactic, where a simple online refutation or justification would have sufficed.

[jabbr]

How can you be so sure....I am reasonably intellectually principled, technically minded and can hear improvements in the heirachy of Nordost cabling. Whether they merit the price asked is a separate thread and excepting the rudeness of most of the assembled, these are real and valid experiences.

Here it comes...duck...!

 

I am saying this because our ability to measure electronic signals is fantastic, and because electrodynamics is not an area where scientific claims have been routinely refuted or retracted for *well over a century*. If there are differences in the electrical properties of two cables, they are measurable. I'm not saying that it is impossible that power cables affect sound, rather that if a cable does affect sound, then the electrical signal going to the speaker will be measurably different.

[Paul R]

Some companies shouldn't exist. Nordost may be one of them. That the owners and employees have families to feed doesn't justify immoral actions.

 

That is rather harsh - and it assumes that Nordost has done something immoral in this situation. That assumption is totally unjustified, what have they done that is immoral? Nothing, they merely defended themselves.

 

As should already be clear, Nordost the company does not appear to have deep pockets for legal services, and moreover, took the minimal and least aggressive actions possible in self defense.

 

Now the other party? That guy did something that at best is on the border of crazy town.

[wdw]

I am saying this because our ability to measure electronic signals is fantastic, and because electrodynamics is not an area where scientific claims have been routinely refuted or retracted for *well over a century*. If there are differences in the electrical properties of two cables, they are measurable. I'm not saying that it is impossible that power cables affect sound, rather that if a cable does affect sound, then the electrical signal going to the speaker will be measurably different.

Could be the unmeasurables, no context to define the baseline.

[esldude]

Could be the unmeasurables, no context to define the baseline. Voltage, etc is only one measure.

Eventually to hear it the speaker must move differently. So does something about the signal that we don't know about, and cannot measure alter speaker movement in a way audible due to the cable? You can't prove a negative, but those are mighty long odds.