Maybe spending stupid amounts of money on power cords isn't entirely harmless

[master]

$6000 power cables? I would think that a high quality power conditioner or other such device would offer far more improvement in sound quality.

 

You could put up a new system for that price.

 

But we are talking of $100,000 and more systems, unlikely anything will improve their performance (unless everything is snake oil). In that stratosphere "perhaps" a $6000 or $10,000 cable will improve the SQ?

[whoozwah]

it's hard to say that anything is harmless given how interconnected we are and how far-reaching our actions are at it pertains to their effect on our fellow humans.

[lucretius]

The thing is only 0.001% of people would buy $6000 or $10,000 cables. More importantly they'd never listen to anyone who thinks otherwise. Lastly, its not like it's costing them an arm, a leg, or a kidney. If you have that kind of $$$ for cables, then you have a lot more where that came from.

 

I'd have loved Mark to stick his ground instead of retracting, but in reality there are very few folks he's saving from snake oil cables.

 

Unless I'm in the wrong and Nordost is as common as Bose, both in terms of perception as being audiophile quality and in sales.

 

But Nordost also sells cables/chords in the $200 range and up. Perhaps their goal is not to sell the most expensive products – although they just might – but rather to make the price of the "less" expensive products look small?

[17629]

You obviously missed my point regarding poor people. First, I am not referring to criminal cases. Second we are agreeing about poor people being represented.

 

By the way, I have NEVER lost a case I brought or one brought against me. That includes 6 major contract litigations and countless mediations regarding two large health care providers and the largest commercial developer in Florida, the Floridian Gov't including Lawton Chiles, the current Gov. of FL, Rick Scott, when he was the CEO of the largest hospital chain; among others during my business endeavors. They all depended upon the same strategy, namely outspending me as the playing field was by no means equal. I am one of those people who is willing to put it all on the line, are you or the others posting here? Obviously the guy who wrote that article isn't.

 

The most important lessons I have learned in my years protecting my trade and various businesses is to never trust a lawyer who tells you it is a "definite" as there is no definite, no matter how ironclad a contract supposedly is; and never ever allow your lawyer to negotiate anything on your behalf and to leave the "legalease" to them and ask their advice as it pertains to the law BUT leave the deal making to someone who understands the business AND then to check and recheck the contract because no one has your interest as much as you and when the dust settles, it is ultimately you and your checkbook on your own.

 

That is why I have persevered in every single one of my encounters in court, mediation or receipt of a threat, with the exception of malpractice cases where everything is predetermined and another scam between insurance companies and the plaintiffs attorneys and where "winning" is really losing.

 

I get it now. I didn't realize you were talking about contracting in FL. Not every state is like that. You made it sound like you were talking about the entire country indiscriminately. The rules in FL are simple. They do whatever they want and get away with it. I'm here right now and I can't wait to get back home to NYC where the people are nice.

[Richard Dale]

But Nordost also sells cables/chords in the $200 range and up. Perhaps their goal is not to sell the most expensive products – although they just might – but rather to make the price of the "less" expensive products look small?

 

The gross over-reaction of both Mark Waldrep and a lot of posters on this thread is because they are on a 'mission' to save audiophiles from themselves. We weak and pitiful owners and potential owners of Nordost cables simply don't have the gumption to arrange a home trial of cables in our system and use our own ears and judgement to decide whether or not the difference is worth the money, before using our own wallets.

 

No, instead we need to be 'saved' and hence the quasi-religious zeal that the 'extreme anti cable objectivists' or whatever they are called. go about their business. If you don't want to buy fancy mains cables or speaker cables, then just don't bother buying them. If Blue Jeans cables or whatever floats your boat then that's just fine. What on earth is the problem?

[wgscott]

The problem is the obscene profits lead to abuses like the gag order, which is the subject of the thread you want to turn into a cable debate.

 

Personally, I am more than happy to see you drain your bank account. Spend away. I have no desire to save you from anything. Buy one for your toaster. I am sure it will improve the quality of what pops out of it.

[Priaptor]

I get it now. I didn't realize you were talking about contracting in FL. Not every state is like that. You made it sound like you were talking about the entire country indiscriminately. The rules in FL are simple. They do whatever they want and get away with it. I'm here right now and I can't wait to get back home to NYC where the people are nice.

 

Actually I have had bad experiences in NJ, CA, TN and was involved with Phillip Morris represented by a Missouri firm. Florida is probably the worst BUT I am now involved in a legal battle in NY trying to protect my father-in-law who is 103 living with his demented wife who is 94.

[Richard Dale]

The problem is the obscene profits lead to abuses like the gag order, which is the subject of the thread you want to turn into a cable debate.

 

Personally, I am more than happy to see you drain your bank account. Spend away. I have no desire to save you from anything. Buy one for your toaster. I am sure it will improve the quality of what pops out of it.

 

You can look at a demo at a HiFi show as entertainment, you don't have to think the setting of the volume level on a CD player is an urgent matter to be fought in public at great legal cost and potential damage to a HiFi brand. Anyway, I would have thought that CD players and DACs take a long time to warm up and stablise, and so constantly turning it on and off in a demo is a bad idea.

 

I do have a toaster designed by F.A. Porsche which looks very nice, although it is pretty poor at making toast as it only has one slot, and it probably illustrates my like for the 'expensive and shiny' as opposed to more practical and cost effective choices. I will consider your suggestion about the cable.

[17629]

Actually I have had bad experiences in NJ, CA, TN and was involved with Phillip Morris represented by a Missouri firm. Florida is probably the worst BUT I am now involved in a legal battle in NY trying to protect my father-in-law who is 103 living with his demented wife who is 94.

 

 

My uncle Vinny can help. He works cheap for audiophiles.

[17629]

So you take the car for a test drive, only to realise that the demo vehicle has had its ECU reprogrammed for better performance, and when you point this out, you receive legal threats.

 

I do agree, of course, that people need to take responsibility for their actions, in this case the action of selling snake oil.

 

I thought I responded to this one yesterday but it must not have went through. Anyway, as for reprogramming the car, its not going to happen. You have a better chance of being struck by lightning. First, its simply not possible for a car dealer to take a car and reprogram it however they wish. They can only do 1 of 2 things. You can replace a PCM with a blank one and reprogram it with as built data. There are no choices involved when you do this. The module gets programmed with the data you get from the factory. Yes, in some instances it can be endeared manually, but it doesn't matter. You still have to enter the exact same data or the PCM won't work. 2, you can update an already working module with new software. But its the same thing again. Its a controlled, one shot deal with no choices. Also, keep in mind that there are security measures in place. Every time programming of any kind is done, records are kept electronically, and effective immediately. So, if you go to one shop and have get an update done for a TSB and then take it somewhere else, it will show in the system.

 

I could go on with more details if you like, but what you are talking about just isn't done. Its not possible to adjust individual parameters to make a car faster. The only way something like that could be done is to buy aftermarket electronics and install them on a car they don't even own. You would get caught the first time you plugged a scan tool in the car for any reason.

 

As for the snake oil comment, you really have no way of telling if a product is really legit, or not. If you buy a PC and it doesn't make a difference, is it snake oil? If the same cable works in my system, then what do you do? The truth about snake oil products is that they are very easy to avoid. Don't buy expensive cables, or anything else for that matter, unless you take steps to prevent yourself from being taken advantage of. If you read most of these cable threads, you would swear someone had a gun pointed to their head. The decision must be made and the cable must be bought. End of discussion. Unless, of course, the cable doesn’t work as described. Then the discussion never ends.

[StephenJK]

Perhaps the answer is to politely ask the Nordost salesman if you could use your own CD? If the power cord makes that big of a difference they should enthusiastically agree. And let you make sure the gain control hasn't been changed, of course.

[lucretius]

I thought I responded to this one yesterday but it must not have went through. Anyway, as for reprogramming the car, its not going to happen. You have a better chance of being struck by lightning. First, its simply not possible for a car dealer to take a car and reprogram it however they wish. They can only do 1 of 2 things. You can replace a PCM with a blank one and reprogram it with as built data. There are no choices involved when you do this. The module gets programmed with the data you get from the factory. Yes, in some instances it can be endeared manually, but it doesn't matter. You still have to enter the exact same data or the PCM won't work. 2, you can update an already working module with new software. But its the same thing again. Its a controlled, one shot deal with no choices. Also, keep in mind that there are security measures in place. Every time programming of any kind is done, records are kept electronically, and effective immediately. So, if you go to one shop and have get an update done for a TSB and then take it somewhere else, it will show in the system.

 

I could go on with more details if you like, but what you are talking about just isn't done. Its not possible to adjust individual parameters to make a car faster. The only way something like that could be done is to buy aftermarket electronics and install them on a car they don't even own. You would get caught the first time you plugged a scan tool in the car for any reason.

 

As for the snake oil comment, you really have no way of telling if a product is really legit, or not. If you buy a PC and it doesn't make a difference, is it snake oil? If the same cable works in my system, then what do you do? The truth about snake oil products is that they are very easy to avoid. Don't buy expensive cables, or anything else for that matter, unless you take steps to prevent yourself from being taken advantage of. If you read most of these cable threads, you would swear someone had a gun pointed to their head. The decision must be made and the cable must be bought. End of discussion. Unless, of course, the cable doesn’t work as described. Then the discussion never ends.

 

I believe we have gone off track (no pun intended) with the car/ECU analogy. I don't know much about most cars, but there does exist readily available software to reprogram Volkswagen ECU's -- the dealer is supposed to remit the license fees after installing the software ... In addition, if you have been following the VW fiasco, you would know that the manufacturer has multiple programs installed on the ECU's for their diesel cars, one for use in testing, and another for the driver's use. I am not sure why you would say that "you have a better chance of being struck by lightning".

[plissken]

No, instead we need to be 'saved' and hence the quasi-religious zeal that the 'extreme anti cable objectivists' or whatever they are called. go about their business. If you don't want to buy fancy mains cables or speaker cables, then just don't bother buying them. If Blue Jeans cables or whatever floats your boat then that's just fine. What on earth is the problem?

 

 

Not anti-cable. Just pro quantitative and merit driven products. There are plenty of them out there.

 

I had tried some Pangea PC's and they didn't sound or measure any differently from the HP Laser Printer power cords I use.

[Allan F]

The most important lessons I have learned in my years protecting my trade and various businesses is to never trust a lawyer who tells you it is a "definite" as there is no definite, no matter how ironclad a contract supposedly is; and never ever allow your lawyer to negotiate anything on your behalf and to leave the "legalease" to them and ask their advice as it pertains to the law BUT leave the deal making to someone who understands the business AND then to check and recheck the contract because no one has your interest as much as you and when the dust settles, it is ultimately you and your checkbook on your own.

In reading the above and your previous posts, it strikes me that you are directing your anger and complaints at the wrong target. The excesses and/or evils of the capitalistic economic system are the real source of the unfairness which permits large companies and corporations to manipulate the legal system to their benefit. The legal system isn't the cause; rather it is the effect.

 

I find it more that slightly ironic that conservatives continually preach about how they want minimum regulation of business, less government intervention, etc. Until they are affected, that is, at which time they complain about the results of the very system they extol. I should add that I am not directing the latter at you personally as I can only speculate about your specific views.

 

BTW, I agree with virtually everything you state your experience has taught you but, again, that has nothing to do with the legal system and everything to do with the business environment within the economic system that exists. Most people, however, are not as committed or as able as you are to direct and control their affairs.

[Priaptor]

In reading the above and your previous posts, it strikes me that you are directing your anger and complaints at the wrong target. The excesses and/or evils of the capitalistic economic system are the real source of the unfairness which permits large companies and corporations to manipulate the legal system to their benefit. The legal system isn't the cause; rather it is the effect.

 

I find it more that slightly ironic that conservatives continually preach about how they want minimum regulation of business, less government intervention, etc. Until they are affected, that is, at which time they complain about the results of the very system they extol. I should add that I am not directing the latter at you personally as I can only speculate about your specific views.

 

BTW, I agree with virtually everything you state your experience has taught you but, again, that has nothing to do with the legal system and everything to do with the business environment within the economic system that exists. Most people, however, are not as committed or as able as you are to direct and control their affairs.

 

First it is not anger just reality.

 

I couldn't agree more about the legal system we currently have being the result of corruption both in the political and business environments where one feeds off the other.

 

Interesting that you bring that up. In the medical field I often hear my colleagues vilifying drug companies, insurance companies, etc while they adhere to similar tactics of over utilization, cost shifting and self referral in order to sustain their incomes in the current environment. They shake their head at me in disbelief as though I have tread on sacred ground. I point out as you have regarding the legal system that these actions of drug companies, insurances companies, for profit hospitals and yes physicians is the result of egregious governmental and business interference and not the cause.

 

However it doesn't make it right. One has to live with oneself and if one wants to rationalize it go ahead. I choose not to engage no matter how much money I could have made.

 

The point being if you are rationalizing the corrupt and broken legal system on it being the "result" I am not arguing but it is what it is nonetheless. Those who choose to participate are no less guilty because it's the "result".

[Allan F]

The point being if you are rationalizing the corrupt and broken legal system on it being the "result" I am not arguing but it is what it is nonetheless. Those who choose to participate are no less guilty because it's the "result".

I am not rationalizing "the corrupt and broken legal system". I am saying that questionable, unethical, and/or unfair businessmen and their actions can manipulate the legal system. The latter is not, by itself, corrupt. It is the economic system that encourages and rewards such practices. Change or control that and the legal system would be fine.

[gmgraves]

But that's not what happened here.

 

He accused Nordost of fraud - lying and cheating wilfully - while demonstrating their cables were better.

 

Opinion would have been - yes they sound louder but they also lost detail, they were too bright, etc.

 

Telling someone their products don't deliver is one thing, calling them fraudsters is an entirely another matter.

 

BTW, I'm on Mark's side, but he could have done better. Maybe asked to play his own music. I've been to 100s of demos and auditions, and not once have I been denied/stopped from playing my music on my CD or USB.

 

Sure they might not have allowed that here, and that would have given Mark more reason (ammo) to write about. But right now as things stand it was all speculation and an accusation of committing fraud - and more importantly without proof. That would get anyone into hot water.

 

But Nodost are, from what I read in Mark's daily blog, guilty of fraud on several levels. What interests me about this scandal is that Nordost actually threatened legal action against a detractor. Look at it this way, suppose you were making and selling snake oil, a concoction consisting of nothing more than grain alcohol laced with eucalyptus oil. You advertise that this nostrum will cure: catarrh, "women's complaints", tuberculosis, erectile dysfunction, cancer, heart disease and asthma. Somebody comes forward in print and says that they had analyzed you product and found it could cure or treat none of those ailments that you advertise it will cure. Now, YOU know that your product is fraudulent. Armed with that knowledge, would you DARE to threaten your detractor with a libel suit, knowing that both you and your product are on such shaky scientific grounds?

Seems like a pretty stupid move to me.

[Priaptor]

I am not rationalizing "the corrupt and broken legal system". I am saying that questionable, unethical, and/or unfair businessmen and their actions can manipulate the legal system. The latter is not, by itself, corrupt. It is the economic system that encourages and rewards such practices. Change or control that and the legal system would be fine.

 

I must say quite the tortuous logic on your part. IF the legal system was so fair and balanced as you claim it couldn't be "manipulated".

[AudioDoctor]

Every day I get down on my knees and thank the lord for the Blue Jeans Cable company.

 

No kidding.

[Priaptor]

But Nodost are, from what I read in Mark's daily blog, guilty of fraud on several levels. What interests me about this scandal is that Nordost actually threatened legal action against a detractor. Look at it this way, suppose you were making and selling snake oil, a concoction consisting of nothing more than grain alcohol laced with eucalyptus oil. You advertise that this nostrum will cure: catarrh, "women's complaints", tuberculosis, erectile dysfunction, cancer, heart disease and asthma. Somebody comes forward in print and says that they had analyzed you product and found it could cure or treat none of those ailments that you advertise it will cure. Now, YOU know that your product is fraudulent. Armed with that knowledge, would you DARE to threaten your detractor with a libel suit, knowing that both you and your product are on such shaky scientific grounds?

Seems like a pretty stupid move to me.

 

Good point. While Nordost is but one example we see it everyday with supplements, etc claiming to cure everything and when studies show it is all BS not one of these snake oil companies threaten a lawsuit. In fact they have that super fast disclaimer at the end of their commercials stating that their products are worthless

[Allan F]

I must say quite the tortuous logic on your part. IF the legal system was so fair and balanced as you claim it couldn't be "manipulated".

If you need an example of what I am referring to, look no further than the 2008 economic crisis,which was the direct result of the uncontrolled, unregulated greed of Wall Street.

[jabbr]

I got some power cords on eBay from Zu audio -- they are terrific. Totally silent. No veil -- sonically entirely transparent. The Nordost cables however are causing loud chatter that I can hear clear across the Internet...

[Priaptor]

If you need an example of what I am referring to, look no further than the 2008 economic crisis,which was the direct result of the uncontrolled, unregulated greed of Wall Street.

 

You are changing topics and there is plenty to go around on that one besides just "unregulated greed of Wall Street". How about moronic governmental "regulation" that ensured the crisis that began back in the 40s.

 

Off topic BUT did you know politicians were allowed to trade on inside information they were prepped on before all the Govt bailouts?? These enforcers of those greedy Wall Streeters were actually allowed "BY LAW" to engage in activity that everyone else would have been prosecuted for.

 

I am still waiting for Corzine to go to jail for his part in scamming his clients during the financial crisis. Oh I forgot, he has tons of money, was a former politician and well connected through prior employment at GS so the law as it applies to others doesn't apply to him. Interesting how so many other scammers went to jail but not Corzine??

 

Now back to the legal system. What does your example have to do with my point regarding the legal system. You are making a tortuous argument again that is incongruous with the point I am making.

[Allan F]

You are changing topics and there is plenty to go around on that one besides just "unregulated greed of Wall Street". How about moronic governmental "regulation" that ensured the crisis that began back in the 40s.

 

Off topic BUT did you know politicians were allowed to trade on inside information they were prepped on before all the Govt bailouts?? These enforcers of those greedy Wall Streeters were actuall allows "BY LAW" to engage in activity that everyone else would have been prosecuted for.

 

I am still waiting for Corzine to go to jail for his part in scamming his clients during the financial crisis. Oh I forgot, he has tons of money, was a former politician and well connected through prior employment at GS so the law as it applies to others doesn't apply to him. Interesting how so many other scammers went to jail but not Corzine??

 

Now back to the legal system. What does your example have to do with my point regarding the legal system. You are making a tortuous argument again that is incongruous with the point I am making.

Actually, you are supporting my point inasmuch as there is virtually no American institution that cannot be manipulated as a consequence of the out of control economic system. The legal system is not unique in that regard. The legal system is not inherently corrupt, but unscrupulous businessmen and/or companies are able to misuse it to their benefit and the detriment of others.

 

A good example is the proliferation of SLAPP (Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation) suits, which are filed by companies to intimidate, and silence critics by subjecting them to unaffordable legal costs, forcing them to withdraw the criticism. Not only that, but the lawsuits are also often withdrawn before the matter goes to trial, having already accomplished their intneded purpose. In response, many jurisdictions in both the U.S. and Canada have enacted anti-SLAPP suit statutes to limit or prevent the practice. The effectiveness of these statutes varies considerably. depending on the breadth of their provisions.

 

Corzine is only one of many individuals who should be in jail for precipitating the financial crisis. Anyhow I, for one, believe that the point has been reached where nothing is to be gained by pursuing this topic any further.

[17629]

I believe we have gone off track (no pun intended) with the car/ECU analogy. I don't know much about most cars, but there does exist readily available software to reprogram Volkswagen ECU's -- the dealer is supposed to remit the license fees after installing the software ... In addition, if you have been following the VW fiasco, you would know that the manufacturer has multiple programs installed on the ECU's for their diesel cars, one for use in testing, and another for the driver's use. I am not sure why you would say that "you have a better chance of being struck by lightning".

 

 

You didn't read my post.

 

"I don't know much about most cars, but there does exist readily available software to reprogram Volkswagen ECU's -- the dealer is supposed to remit the license fees after installing the software .."

 

"First, its simply not possible for a car dealer to take a car and reprogram it however they wish. They can only do 1 of 2 things. You can replace a PCM with a blank one and reprogram it with as built data. There are no choices involved when you do this. The module gets programmed with the data you get from the factory. Yes, in some instances it can be endeared manually, but it doesn't matter. You still have to enter the exact same data or the PCM won't work. 2, you can update an already working module with new software. But its the same thing again. Its a controlled, one shot deal with no choices."

 

I thought that's pretty clear. Of course the software is readily available. But the dealer is the only one who has access to it. This applies to any brand, not just Volkswagen. If I were to give you the update on a disc, you would have no way of installing it. You need the dealers diag computer and know how to deal with all the security measures. Also, like I said before, the dealer can't alter the software. Its exactly the same thing as updating software on a PC.

 

"In addition, if you have been following the VW fiasco, you would know that the manufacturer has multiple programs installed on the ECU's for their diesel cars, one for use in testing, and another for the driver's use. I am not sure why you would say that "you have a better chance of being struck by lightning"

 

You do have a better chance of getting struck by lightning. The multiple programs you refer to have nothing to do with the dealer or the customer. They come from the factory and can't be altered in any way. And that was the reason I responded to mansr's comment in the first place. Here it is again.

 

"So you take the car for a test drive, only to realise that the demo vehicle has had its ECU reprogrammed for better performance, and when you point this out, you receive legal threats."

 

The dealer couldn't do that even if they wanted to. Also, I probably should have mentioned that I grew up in the auto business and fixed cars for a good portion of my life. I've done thousands of updates and reprograms. I know the info I'm giving you here is correct.