Maybe spending stupid amounts of money on power cords isn't entirely harmless

[ecwl]

I've been to these demos myself. And now that I'm catching up to all this, I do think Waldrop is being extremely unfair. First of all, some guy claims the preamp volume was increased. Waldrop confesses that he didn't see any. Then he felt the volume is louder but he didn't measure it and he assumed that Nordost is playing tricks with the tracks. That's the most unscientific thing I've ever heard yet people are saying Nordost's inability to A/B the system is unscientific. I see double standards here. I don't know legally whether what Waldrop says deserve a cease and desist letter, probably not. But let's not all pretend that Waldop is a saint using scientific method to expose fraud. If Nordost didn't play any tricks, which was the case on 3 different demos I've seen, is Waldrop willing to admit that the expensive power cable made a difference. Or that his hearing is deficient that he heard the more expensive cable sounds louder but in fact, he was wrong and there was truly no difference.

[wdw]

You seem to think anyone who holds an opinion at variance with your own is picking a brawl.

 

A better question might be why do I keep reading your posts when I have had you on my ignore list for years?

You have issues, that's a given.

I have no interest in debating the merits of any particular cable but this thread is merely a lynching. The anger and condemnation is palpable.

Great work.

[Richard Dale]

Perhaps inflammatory but he was making the point that if volume is not controlled that comparisons of sonics are not valid. He was concerned that volume was not being controlled. Seems like a reasonable concern.

 

I think when claims are made that stretch what we know about electronics, that reasonable criticisms should be expected. I'd like to see measurements that support such claims.

 

I use IsoTek EVO3 Premier mains cables in my systems and I think they are good value at about 100 euros each. Here is an article about IsoTek with an interview with a couple of guys from IsoTek who talk about how they partnered with Nordost to design some of their mains products:

 

High Fidelity

[wgscott]

You have issues

 

You have Sort Kones.

[master]

The thing is only 0.001% of people would buy $6000 or $10,000 cables. More importantly they'd never listen to anyone who thinks otherwise. Lastly, its not like it's costing them an arm, a leg, or a kidney. If you have that kind of $$$ for cables, then you have a lot more where that came from.

 

I'd have loved Mark to stick his ground instead of retracting, but in reality there are very few folks he's saving from snake oil cables.

 

Unless I'm in the wrong and Nordost is as common as Bose, both in terms of perception as being audiophile quality and in sales.

[wdw]

You have Sort Kones.

 

Glad I do.

[ecwl]

Wgscott, I'll try to stay out of the whether power cables sound different debate. But the issue here is not that. The main issue is Waldrop hypothesizes that Nordost was changing the track volume when doing the cable demos. That's completely unsubstantiated and was not my experience on 3 different demos. What Waldrop says would be as inappropriate and as inflammatory as me saying that I speculate Wgscott started this post because he privately sells a different brand of power cables or owns the stock power cable industry or something equally speculative and presumably preposterous.

[Paul R]

Bah he related his direct experience and observation from the show. F Nordost.

 

Sheep yourself.

 

The posts were second or third accounts hand from an email correspondent. If they had been first hand accounts, the posts would have been pretty much protected and much more difficult to challenge.

[wgscott]

Sheep yourself.

 

The posts were second or third accounts hand from an email correspondent. If they had been first hand accounts, the posts would have been pretty much protected and much more difficult to challenge.

 

He also had his own observations.

[wgscott]

Wgscott, I'll try to stay out of the whether power cables sound different debate. But the issue here is not that. The main issue is Waldrop hypothesizes that Nordost was changing the track volume when doing the cable demos. That's completely unsubstantiated and was not my experience on 3 different demos. What Waldrop says would be as inappropriate and as inflammatory as me saying that I speculate Wgscott started this post because he privately sells a different brand of power cables or owns the stock power cable industry or something equally speculative and presumably preposterous.

 

It is not physically impossible that I am selling a competing power cord. It is physically impossible that a power cord increases the volume.

[Paul R]

Perhaps inflammatory but he was making the point that if volume is not controlled that comparisons of sonics are not valid. He was concerned that volume was not being controlled. Seems like a reasonable concern.

 

I think when claims are made that stretch what we know about electronics, that reasonable criticisms should be expected. I'd like to see measurements that support such claims.

 

 

No - he was not making any such point, that is a rationalization. He was trying to stick a pin into Nordost, plain and simple.

 

The fact he flinched when Nordost stuck back with a pen of their own (pun intended) indicates he did not think the posts all the way hrough.

 

Does not matter if he is right or wrong, he went about it the wrong way.

[Richard Dale]

It is not physically impossible that I am selling a competing power cord. It is physically impossible that a power cord increases the volume.

 

No actually. There was a very interesting long discussion on this thread about why some cable designs might have that effect amongst a lot of other subjects:

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/ac-filtering-grounding-boxes-linear-power-supply-unit-and-balanced-power-24916/

[Paul R]

He also had his own observations.

 

I am not sure of that, because it does not match up the Nordost demos I have seen. This may have been an anomoly, but then again, maybe not. The whole thing is poisoned by the first mishandling. IMNSHO.

[ecwl]

It is not physically impossible that I am selling a competing power cord. It is physically impossible that a power cord increases the volume.

 

I think we agree on that point. So are you telling us that Waldrop's hearing is deficient? And that we should ignore his comments? Because if you and Waldrop are going to speculate that Nordost played some trick to change volumes when switching power cables, does that legitimize us to speculate you sell competing power cords? You can't have your cake and eat it too...

[Speedskater]

The best defense for Nordost, would be to do another demo, with an independent person handling the visible controls and switching the hidden cables. And of course commercial recordings.

[Kimo]

Does not matter if he is right or wrong, he went about it the wrong way.

 

Actually, it is the only thing that matters legally and ethically.

[wgscott]

I think we agree on that point. So are you telling us that Waldrop's hearing is deficient? And that we should ignore his comments? Because if you and Waldrop are going to speculate that Nordost played some trick to change volumes when switching power cables, does that legitimize us to speculate you sell competing power cords? You can't have your cake and eat it too...

 

You can speculate all you want. Unlike Nordost, I am content to say that it is factually incorrect. Nordost is gagging a critic.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

It's my non-lawyer understanding that it can only be slander/libel if it isn't true.

 

I am not a lawyer either, but you are right. However, proving the truth of what happened at the show demo is all but impossible. Even if Waldrep is right, I will bet that the disc in question is long gone in some shredder. Even if Nordost came forth with a disc, how could it be proven that it is the one used for the demo? But, the law would favor Nordost in the absence of positive proof to the contrary, which Waldrep does not have nor is it likely he could obtain it via documents or testimony by those conducting the demo.

 

So, Waldrep has no choice but to comply. I cannot blame him for wishing to avoid a lawsuit. But, doing so should not be viewed as conceding the truth of the matter in Nordost's favor. I think, as he is now probably himself aware, there may be ways to phrase his opinions more carefully to avoid the threat of potential legal consequences yet still raise the questions in people's minds. Unfortunately, those questions are now squelched by a threat of legal action, regardless of the truth. Few audiophiles will see it.

 

We know Waldrep did this before with a show demo of AudioQuest HDMI cables, and they admitted their culpability, indirectly because they could blame an overzealous dealer of theirs who actually set up and ran the demo. But, it took AQ about a year to finally fess up that their dealer had actually presented slides of doctored measurements. That shifted the burden of proof entirely to that dealer and to AQ, unlike here.

 

I think I understand fairly well what goes on in the marketing of many audio products, especially cables and accessories. It is not pretty. Yes, let the buyer beware. But, many marketers are downright sleazy and they will not provide any real evidence to us, such as measurements or bias-controlled listening experiments. The fact that they do not, when they have the resources to do so, speaks volumes to me. And, their buddies in the audiophile press are not about to call them on their mind games. They love the ad revenues too much.

 

I know, I know, audio is mysterious and measurements or objective listening tests do not tell us everything. So, we should just trust Nordost, et al? Not me, thanks.

[jabbr]

No - he was not making any such point, that is a rationalization. He was trying to stick a pin into Nordost, plain and simple.

 

The fact he flinched when Nordost stuck back with a pen of their own (pun intended) indicates he did not think the posts all the way hrough.

 

Does not matter if he is right or wrong, he went about it the wrong way.

 

Well as they say IANAL, but if I were a supreme court justice and were hearing evidence, I would be very skeptical of power cord claims, and would generously allow criticisms in the absence of measurable evidence. On the other hand, perhaps the government should get into the game of making high end power cords : rather than taxing foolish poor people with lottery tickets, it is more ethical to tax foolish rich people! If the profits from expensive power cords were going to help pay down the deficit then just shut that Waldrep guy up!

 

Again, show me some actual repeatable measurements and we are talking a different story

[firedog]

..he wrote two articles and posted them on line accusing the company of engaging in willful fraud and misrepresentation....no lawyer but it's this slander and libel?

Surprised he isn't facing stiffer legal action.

 

Except he didn't exactly do that. In the first article he reported what someone else said - he didn't claim it was true. In the second he said the thought they were cheating, but he hedged it a bit.

 

I guess you could say he should have asked for their response to his observations before he published - and printed them along with his view.

 

But why didn't Nordost just refute his implications and demand that he add their response to the blog post? Seems to me that would be a much better move. As we can all see, once something is "out there" on the Net, it's pretty hard to make it disappear, even with the cease and desist order.

[wdw]

You can speculate all you want. Unlike Nordost, I am content to say that it is factually incorrect. Nordost is gagging a critic.

Hey Doc,

Not "gag a critic". Whatever this guy wants to say about the merits of power cords is not the question, he was emphatically stating that Nordost engages in commercial fraud. He can't be that bright is all I'd add. He should be sued.

[christopher3393]

A conjecture: this is about saving face. I would personally prefer that it had been handled differently ---publicly, openly. But since I can't claim to understand the whole situation, it's only a conjecture and a preference based on that conjecture.

[Stereolab42]

On the other hand, perhaps the government should get into the game of making high end power cords :rather than taxing foolish poor people with lottery tickets, it is more ethical to tax foolish rich people!

 

Best political idea I've heard all year. Let's also make the border fence out of expensive power cables; think of the electricity saved every time somebody gets electrocuted because of reduced transmission loss...

[Paul R]

Actually, it is the only thing that matters legally and ethically.

 

Not really.

 

If he is right, he still published in such as way as he could not be validated *and* opened himself to legal action. There are well tested and workable ways to publish things like that that also protect the journalist.

 

If he is wrong, then he is surely smart enough to know that he was only, as I politely provide a circumlocution, "sticking a pin into Nordost." The reasons why he would do that are only suppositions, but they could easily include just wanting publicity at the expense of an other company. After all, he promotes himself as a "HD Audio Guru" - and he sure has gotten a lot of publicity about this.

 

Like I said, whether he was right or wrong, he went about the whole thing the wrong way. And I am NOT saying that any of the negative suppositions above are accurate about Waldrop, or even that I believe them. Just that it is possible to make an argument that they are.

 

But the fact that one could make such an argument about is definitely why he "went about it the wrong way."

 

-Paul

 

 

†

[Kimo]

Not really.

 

If he is right, he still published in such as way as he could not be validated *and* opened himself to legal action. There are well tested and workable ways to publish things like that that also protect the journalist.

 

If he is wrong, then he is surely smart enough to know that he was only, as I politely provide a circumlocution, "sticking a pin into Nordost." The reasons why he would do that are only suppositions, but they could easily include just wanting publicity at the expense of an other company. After all, he promotes himself as a "HD Audio Guru" - and he sure has gotten a lot of publicity about this.

 

Like I said, whether he was right or wrong, he went about the whole thing the wrong way. And I am NOT saying that any of the negative suppositions above are accurate about Waldrop, or even that I believe them. Just that it is possible to make an argument that they are.

 

But the fact that one could make such an argument about is definitely why he "went about it the wrong way."

 

-Paul

 

 

†

 

He is basically stating that the presenter committed fraud and speculating as to how he pulled it off. There is no right or wrong way to do this. There may be more careful ways to do this, but the allegation remains substantial.

 

Allege fraud, and you will open yourself up to a claim. Prove fraud and you have won a claim.

 

I guess the legal subtleties are beyond my grasp.