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Can you hear 16 times the jitter?


Which is the 8th generation copy?  

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Was (were) the control file or files tampered with?

 

One mediocre piece of music is far from enough to be able to reach conclusions, at least for me.

 

I was thinking of making a DB of test music tracks for listening impressions after tweaks or equipment changes, and now I think that same thing can be used for such tests, which would provide a larger basis for comparisons.

 

I know PeterSt uses several tracks for different characteristics to listen for over several days.

Well there were two pieces of music to choose from. And this after finding providing nine choices seemed to deter participation. Each of the nine choices carefully chosen for revealing specific differences. Sometimes you just can't win. No tampering with the original music.

 

PS no hatin' on Fiona.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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FWIW, if you search hack through the forum you should also find reports regarding a similar weird phenomena from ex member Steve Nugent from Empirical Audio.

Clay (losing my religion) put me in touch with him about it quite a few years ago, but I have forgotten the details..

 

I just found it again.

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/file-format-2861/index2.html see post 33.

 

Interesting but intriguing stuff:

 

I ask becuase Steve Nugent is claiming that he & his customers can hear a difference in tracks when the only measurable difference is the 'offset' (of zeros) added to the beginning of the track.

 

BTW, others have countered that any such effects should die out in milliseconds.

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Well there were two pieces of music to choose from. And this after finding providing nine choices seemed to deter participation. Each of the nine choices carefully chosen for revealing specific differences. Sometimes you just can't win. No tampering with the original music.

 

PS no hatin' on Fiona.

 

My listening will petered out after about 7 listens to each Fiona track... (so I can understand what you mean about people participating less with more files).

 

NB: No hate towards Fiona at all, it's just with your choice of track :P

Dedicated Line DSD/DXD | Audirvana+ | iFi iDSD Nano | SET Tube Amp | Totem Mites

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Yeah, can't you pick something more audiophile-friendly, like that Diana Crawl S&M album everyone loves?

 

Well I did have Jazz at the (alleged) Pawn Shop, but declined using it.

 

I didn't have Burt Bacharach Casino Royale

 

I couldn't stomach The Weavers at Carnegie Hell's Reunion or whatever it is.

 

I should have stuck with my first intuition and only used tracks from Hotel California or Dark Side of the Moon.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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Well I did have Jazz at the (alleged) Pawn Shop, but declined using it.

 

I didn't have Burt Bacharach Casino Royale

 

I couldn't stomach The Weavers at Carnegie Hell's Reunion or whatever it is.

 

I should have stuck with my first intuition and only used tracks from Hotel California or Dark Side of the Moon.

 

To avoid copyright issues, I could have put my two best microphones in the backyard and recorded two hours of nature sounds at 192/24. No processing, just pure nature. Sounds like hummingbirds, robins, crickets, squirrels, 4wd trucks, lawn mowers and leaf blowers.

 

"I picked G as the 8th generation copy because the natural stridency of the leaf blower at 10,000 rpm about the 1 hr. 6 minutes mark seemed unnatural."

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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To avoid copyright issues, I could have put my two best microphones in the backyard and recorded two hours of nature sounds at 192/24. No processing, just pure nature. Sounds like hummingbirds, robins, crickets, squirrels, 4wd trucks, lawn mowers and leaf blowers.

 

And Alex would refuse to participate because he is only familiar with the sound of nature in Australia. :)

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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And Alex would refuse to participate because he is only familiar with the sound of nature in Australia. :)

 

And I would have guessed it was because lawn mowers and leaf blowers rotate in the opposite direction in the down under.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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And Alex would refuse to participate because he is only familiar with the sound of nature in Australia. :)

 

Pure sound through a cheap and nasty USB A/D converter with level test tones then added, levels adjusted, then test tones removed and files trimmed ? Pull the other leg, it whistles !

Get back in your guard dog kennel Fido !

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Get back in your guard dog kennel Fido !

 

I'll be glad to go when you stop shitting negativity on this thread.

 

You had added ZERO value to this thread with posts like the following.

 

Why are you even here if you had no interest in participating?

 

All it takes for the 2 supposedly identical files to sound a little different, is one uploaded with no background activity going on, and the other with say a security scan being performed at the time of the upload. The same can happen at the time of saving or copying the files originally, or one being saved/played with a Broadband Modem connected, and the other with the connection to the modem unplugged.

TBH, I don't give a damn whether you accept this or not !

 

Rubbish

Not everybody is familiar with the music that is presented, and quite often the material may be already degraded before it even gets uploaded. Quite often you are asked to vote on different levels of mediocrity.

BTW, I DID participate in Mani's test in the Schiit thread, but how could I possibly consider myself an Audiophile, when I am 77 years of age with industrial type hearing damage from 44 years in Telecommunications ?

 

Mani

From HFC Forum

Martin Colloms

#100 Posted : about a month ago

Next Issue Vol 10 no2 will carry a well researched 8page article on how WAV differs from FLAC ,

 

.......how the files are made up and how they sound different.

 

Surely nobody except one of the other posters in this thread would want to listen via their eyes ?

 

Where, and what is the offset? If the files were identical ,then according to you, it wouldn't be surprisingly hard to distinguish them, it would be impossible.

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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Pure sound through a cheap and nasty USB A/D converter with level test tones then added, levels adjusted, then test tones removed and files trimmed ? Pull the other leg, it whistles !

Get back in your guard dog kennel Fido !

 

Sorry to hear you have two wooden legs Alex. If I had known I could have used the whistle instead of artificial tones. If you think leaving test tones in would help the fidelity I have those too and could make them available to you. You just have to listen to them.

 

Not that the processing I have done is 1% of what these tracks other than the Wilson have undergone. Yet somehow my little bit at the end ruins it. Amazin'

 

So what would it take to get you to listen to files like this? Can you detail the procedure that would work, because I can't figure out any way such a thing is possible by your criteria.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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So what would it take to get you to listen to files like this? Can you detail the procedure that would work, because I can't figure out any way such a thing is possible by your criteria.

 

It would have to be done on a "sufficiently" revealing system complete with linear power supplies, Uptone Regens, Jitterbugs, and Intona isolators, in the presence of "respected" Sydney audiophiles, and supervised by Martin Colloms. Clearly, only music recorded by Barry Diament should be used. USB is out of the question, but you still need the Regens etc (don't ask).

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It would have to be done on a "sufficiently" revealing system complete with linear power supplies, Uptone Regens, Jitterbugs, and Intona isolators, in the presence of "respected" Sydney audiophiles, and supervised by Martin Colloms. Clearly, only music recorded by Barry Diament should be used. USB is out of the question, but you still need the Regens etc (don't ask).

 

The music also has to be sent by carrier pigeon as any other method for delivery causes the bits to degrade. The bird cannot fly too high though as the sun's rays at higher altitudes are just as damaging as sending data over the Internet.

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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Not that the processing I have done is 1% of what these tracks other than the Wilson have undergone.

 

Do you have screenshots of how the settings are in the software you used? Was it Audacity?

 

Was the control file or the control files edited and re-saved in any way?

Dedicated Line DSD/DXD | Audirvana+ | iFi iDSD Nano | SET Tube Amp | Totem Mites

Surround: VLC | M-Audio FastTrack Pro | Mac Opt | Panasonic SA-HE100 | Logitech Z623

DIY: SET Tube Amp | Low-Noise Linear Regulated Power Supply | USB, Power, Speaker Cables | Speaker Stands | Acoustic Panels

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Sorry to hear you have two wooden legs Alex. If I had known I could have used the whistle instead of artificial tones. If you think leaving test tones in would help the fidelity I have those too and could make them available to you. You just have to listen to them.

 

Not that the processing I have done is 1% of what these tracks other than the Wilson have undergone. Yet somehow my little bit at the end ruins it. Amazin'

 

So what would it take to get you to listen to files like this? Can you detail the procedure that would work, because I can't figure out any way such a thing is possible by your criteria.

 

Dennis

Given also your recent diatribes about just how good USB Audio is fine without any added equipment, that are completely out of touch with the views of the vast majority of members as seen in many 100s of posts and numerous threads , where you have yet to personally try any of those commercial solutions, I doubt that any files you post without added manipulation would result in myself or many other members becoming involved.

The members have spoken with their very poor response to your posted files in several threads, despite >1,000 it would seem ,either reading the threads or downloading the files.

You are simply refusing to address concerns posted by the majority of the recipient's about additional processing and more suitable material with percussion etc.

Neither is typical material from the likes of Diana Krall etc. suited for these kinds of tests.

Perhaps further reflection on your part after things improve in your present greatly upsetting personal situation, may add more clarity to these issues ? I do however very much understand why you need to keep occupied.

Try some dynamic material such as the bonus live track "Sumiyaki Coffee" from Jheena Lodwick, or perhaps "The Storm" from the Chesky Hybrid Surround SACD. Chesky may even give approval for it's use if asked ?

There would be some degradation when uploaded via the Internet, but material like "Sumiyaki Coffee" may give better results as it sounds more like high res to begin with ? I understand your concerns about the use of copyrighted recordings, but as I said previously, using a single track only for demo purposes often leads to people purchasing the complete album.

Just don't post the name of the artist and the track in open forum and ask people to just state whether X,Y or Z sounds best to them.

 

Best Wishes

Alex

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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The music also has to be sent by carrier pigeon as any other method for delivery causes the bits to degrade. The bird cannot fly too high though as the sun's rays at higher altitudes are just as damaging as sending data over the Internet.
It would have to be done on a "sufficiently" revealing system complete with linear power supplies, Uptone Regens, Jitterbugs, and Intona isolators, in the presence of "respected" Sydney audiophiles, and supervised by Martin Colloms. Clearly, only music recorded by Barry Diament should be used. USB is out of the question, but you still need the Regens etc (don't ask).

 

Typical sarcastic replies from Dennis's guard dogs that always jump to his defence, yet never post anything positive or helpful themselves !

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Typical sarcastic replies from Dennis's guard dogs that always jump to his defence, yet never post anything positive or helpful themselves !

 

I downloaded the music, listened to it, and voted.

 

What did you do other than complain about what's wrong with the test?

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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Typical sarcastic replies from Dennis's guard dogs that always jump to his defence, yet never post anything positive or helpful themselves !

 

Best put on the Ignore List...

Dedicated Line DSD/DXD | Audirvana+ | iFi iDSD Nano | SET Tube Amp | Totem Mites

Surround: VLC | M-Audio FastTrack Pro | Mac Opt | Panasonic SA-HE100 | Logitech Z623

DIY: SET Tube Amp | Low-Noise Linear Regulated Power Supply | USB, Power, Speaker Cables | Speaker Stands | Acoustic Panels

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I downloaded the music, listened to it, and voted.

 

What did you do other than complain about what's wrong with the test?

 

Bully for you !

The test in it's present form is completely flawed, and irrelevant, as can be seen by the lack of participants, despite numerous views of the thread.

There was also no need to include level test tones in the original and the copy, only the later A/D samples.

G.I.G.O.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Bully for you !

The test in it's present form is completely flawed, and irrelevant, as can be seen by the lack of participants, despite numerous views of the thread.

G.I.G.O.

 

If you believe this, I ask you again:

 

Why are you still here shitting all over this thread?

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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Try some dynamic material such as the bonus live track "Sumiyaki Coffee" from Jheena Lodwick, or perhaps "The Storm" from the Chesky Hybrid Surround SACD.

 

Why am I not surprised that both discs are out of print?

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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best put on the ignore list...

 

agreed.

 

P.S.

Why does this forum, insist on changing from Capital letters?

I twice posted "agreed" in capital letters only to have it changed each time.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Do you have screenshots of how the settings are in the software you used? Was it Audacity?

 

Was the control file or the control files edited and re-saved in any way?

 

So what is it you really wish to know?

 

I used Audacity for portions of the process and Reaper for others. If you are wondering about errant dither settings effecting saves and such don't. You can confirm the two tracks for download are bit perfect vs each other once offset is taken care of. I have confirmed the same is true vs the file I played and recorded. I also have confirmed that is the case vs the original rip of the song. Though these snippets were saved in 24 bit while being 16 bit originals it was done so the extra bits were simply padded with zeroes.

 

Attached is the sample data for 1000 samples upon mixing the files available for download and the original ripped file on my hard drive. With one file inverted. You can see all are minus infinity.

sample-data fiona apple2.txt

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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I like to record sound reproduction of various setups and compare them. It is not perfect, but was useful to hear the difference. AVshowreports videos are my reference.

 

When I wanted to record my fellow audiophiles system, all I got was " the microphone was not sensitive enough" and refused to take part.

 

No difference here.

 

Not sensitive enough as in sensitive as probably the mics used for most of the recordings they are listening to right? ;)

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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