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Can you hear 16 times the jitter?


esldude
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Which is the 8th generation copy?  

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Download this file and it will unzip into a folder with three 30 second snippets of a Fiona Apple song. Two of them are the original digital file and one is an 8th generation copy. So pick the odd man out in the poll. Could be done in 5 or 10 minutes.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oa6wbekoegi8u9a/Fiona%20Apple%20Gen%208.zip?dl=0

 

Since you have ADC plus DAC jitter, plus it was repeated 8 times you should have 16 times the jitter, plus other more audible issues from noise build up.

 

If you prefer you can also download this file of Hyperion Knight playing a bit of Mussorgsky on solo piano. Recorded by Wilson audio with all Spectral electronics.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oe3h3a92yqy8sta/Hyperion%20Knight%20Gen%208.zip?dl=0

 

You can purchase the hirez version of Pictures at an Exhibition by Knight here:

 

Hyperion Knight, Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition - Ginastera: Piano Sonata No. 1, Op. 22 in High-Resolution Audio - ProStudioMasters

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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Ooops!

 

The poll should read X, Y or Z.

 

Mea Culpa!

 

X=A

Y=B

Z=C.

 

I don't see a way to edit the poll.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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I'm confused. How did you get to the 8th generation file? If it's been through an ADC 8 times, does that mean you made an analogue recording and re-recorded it each time? If so, what medium did you use to store the analogue recording?

Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.

- Einstein

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I'm confused. How did you get to the 8th generation file? If it's been through an ADC 8 times, does that mean you played it back into a mike and re-recorded it each time?

 

Played the file through a DAC which fed an ADC. Took that recording, played it through the DAC and recorded it with an ADC. Did this 8 times. No mike though just a direct connection of DAC analog output to ADC analog input.

 

Does this make sense? Or did I explain it poorly?

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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Played the file through a DAC which fed an ADC. Took that recording, played it through the DAC and recorded it with an ADC. Did this 8 times. No mike though just a direct connection of DAC analog output to ADC analog input.

 

Does this make sense? Or did I explain it poorly?

Sorry, I seem to have edited my original post while you were replying to it. I think I follow you now, though I would have thought there would have been more going on than just jitter with an analogue signal travelling along a wire.

Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.

- Einstein

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Okay, so out of the hundreds who viewed this thread, could a few of you give a short reason you wouldn't listen and vote in the poll? I am curious.

 

I put this up because I think some will be surprised how good an 8th generation copy will sound. Yet it is discernible vs the original. I wondered if it would be easily discernible to most others or not. I don't have SOTA gear or SOTA hearing.

 

So why not this little hearing experience that would take literally like 10 minutes of your time?

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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"Okay, so out of the hundreds who viewed this thread, could a few of you give a short reason you wouldn't listen and vote in the poll? I am curious."

 

No one likes you.

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"Okay, so out of the hundreds who viewed this thread, could a few of you give a short reason you wouldn't listen and vote in the poll? I am curious."

 

No one likes you.

 

Well if that is the truth I hope others will simply say so. I won't be happy if that is the case, but I am not that thinned skinned about such things either. So fire away, be honest.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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"Okay, so out of the hundreds who viewed this thread, could a few of you give a short reason you wouldn't listen and vote in the poll? I am curious."

 

No one likes you.

 

Trudat,

Elsdude is our audiophile Ted Cruz. He likely spent his high school years stuffed in a locker, he wishes he had an imaginary friend, he cannot see himself in a mirror and he smells with his tongue...(stolen from Bill Maher)

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Didn't do the poll because I've done jitter listening tests before and just aren't interested in spending any time on another one.

In general I find these types of exercises annoying and not very enlightening. I don't think I listen the same way in "test" conditions as do other times.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +_iFi  AC iPurifiers >Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Conditioning+Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Listening: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Matrix Element i Streamer/DAC (XLR)+Schiit Freya>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: RPi 3B+ running RoPieee to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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Dennis: This answer may put me right next to you on the "unpopular list" but I think most people would just prefer to cling to their beliefs rather than actually test them and expose themselves to maybe actually changing their mind. What your "tests" indicate to me is that there are clear and audible differences in each of these, but they also indicate that any one difference is very slight and we might not clearly be able to hear it, standing alone. For example, I don't know that I could have heard a 2 or maybe 4X jitter test difference.

 

But we also know that all of these tiny, sometimes unintelligible differences do add up and that piece of equipment that gets nearly all of them right can sound meaningfully better than one that doesn't. But it is a lot easier to just remember that a Chord Dave, a Schitt Ygdrasil or a T+A DAC 8 DSD sound great than to remember the 15 little ways in which each of these pieces of equipment has bettered the masses, particularly when perhaps only 10 of those 15 qualities are shared and the other 5 are unique to one of those three pieces of equipment.

Synology NAS>i7-6700/32GB/NVIDIA QUADRO P4000 Win10>Qobuz+Tidal>Roon>HQPlayer>DSD512> Fiber Switch>Ultrarendu (NAA)>SMSL M500 DAC> Bryston SP3 pre>Levinson No. 432 amps>Magnepan (MG20.1x2, CCR and MMC2x6)

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Dennis: This answer may put me right next to you on the "unpopular list" but I think most people would just prefer to cling to their beliefs rather than actually test them and expose themselves to maybe actually changing their mind. What your "tests" indicate to me is that there are clear and audible differences in each of these, but they also indicate that any one difference is very slight and we might not clearly be able to hear it, standing alone. For example, I don't know that I could have heard a 2 or maybe 4X jitter test difference.

 

But we also know that all of these tiny, sometimes unintelligible differences do add up and that piece of equipment that gets nearly all of them right can sound meaningfully better than one that doesn't. But it is a lot easier to just remember that a Chord Dave, a Schitt Ygdrasil or a T+A DAC 8 DSD sound great than to remember the 15 little ways in which each of these pieces of equipment has bettered the masses, particularly when perhaps only 10 of those 15 qualities are shared and the other 5 are unique to one of those three pieces of equipment.

 

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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Hi Dennis, took a very quick listen through my office system and 'forced' myself to come up with an answer after a single play of each (only the Fionna Apple). For me, the worst sounding was clearly Z/C. My preference was for Y/B. X/A sounded to me like your 24/48 upsampled files - something just not quite right with them.

 

Mani.

Main: Okto dac8PRO -> 8x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima speakers + subs
Office: MOTU UltraLite-mk5 -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Impulse H2 speakers
Vinyl: Thöress Phono Enhancer -> RME ADI-2 Pro

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Hi Dennis, took a very quick listen through my office system and 'forced' myself to come up with an answer after a single play of each (only the Fionna Apple). For me, the worst sounding was clearly Z/C. My preference was for Y/B. X/A sounded to me like your 24/48 upsampled files - something just not quite right with them.

 

Mani.

 

To be clear, on this set of files, two of the three are identical original files. One is a copy.

 

So you are saying all three sounded different, but Z sounded worst?

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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I put this up because I think some will be surprised how good an 8th generation copy will sound.

 

Some will even prefer the 8th gen to the original.

 

Some will think the two originals sound different to each other.

 

Fascinating.

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To be clear, on this set of files, two of the three are identical original files. One is a copy.

 

So you are saying all three sounded different, but Z sounded worst?

 

All it takes for the 2 supposedly identical files to sound a little different, is one uploaded with no background activity going on, and the other with say a security scan being performed at the time of the upload. The same can happen at the time of saving or copying the files originally, or one being saved/played with a Broadband Modem connected, and the other with the connection to the modem unplugged.

TBH, I don't give a damn whether you accept this or not !

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Listen to the files in different orders, i.e. A>B>C, then A>C>B, then B>A>C, etc. and you can fairly quickly figure out which is different. As to which sounds better? Uh, Oh, that might be harder... ;)

Synology NAS>i7-6700/32GB/NVIDIA QUADRO P4000 Win10>Qobuz+Tidal>Roon>HQPlayer>DSD512> Fiber Switch>Ultrarendu (NAA)>SMSL M500 DAC> Bryston SP3 pre>Levinson No. 432 amps>Magnepan (MG20.1x2, CCR and MMC2x6)

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When will the 8th Generation file be revealed ?

 

I voted in the poll, am curious if I got it right (or maybe I did not :))

 

thanks

Speaker : iPhone 6S Plus > UpTone Audio USB Regen (x2) > Benchmark DAC1 Pre > Pass Labs INT-30A > Focal Micro Utopia BE

Headphone : Auralic Aries > Auralic Gemini 2000 > Audeze LCD-X

Power & Tweaks : Heaps of Balanced & Isolation Power supplies, Dedicated Line, Vinnie Rossi MINI PURE-DC-4EVR, HD-Plex LPSU, iFi Audio DC iPurifiers, DIY Resonance/Vibration platforms using Townshend Audio Seismic Isolation Pods

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I kind of agree with some of the comments that these sorts of tests are a bit 'artificial' - it's not how we tend to listen to music.

 

Also, I'm not at all bought into the whole 'bias' argument. Here at my place, I have all my ultra-expensive cables (gold Analysis Plus sort of stuff) sitting in boxes in my basement - I prefer my cheap anti-cables. Gear that was supposedly 'the absolute best' according to reviews at the time I've sold after a few months of ownership because it sounded crap to my ears (my Marantz SA-1 springs to mind, compared to my trusted Rotel RHCD-10). My Pass Labs X1 preamp sits in the basement because the VC in XXHighEnd sounds way better. I sold my Pass Labs X600 monos because they sounded truly awful - NP may be a genius but even he's made some pretty bad mistakes IMO (I had a pair of his XVR-1 active x-overs which were nice though). And for me, the real clincher is that I replaced my Pacific Microsonics Model Two with the Phasure NOS1 DAC. My 'bias' was massively in favour of the former at the time. I think ultimately you've got to put everything to one side and just listen to the music.

 

To be clear, on this set of files, two of the three are identical original files. One is a copy.

 

So you are saying all three sounded different, but Z sounded worst?

 

Well, 'listening to the music' on my main system, here's what I hear:

 

X:

- wrong 'tone'

- edgy

- slightly sibilant

- sounds like the recording studio was moved into a small cave

 

Y:

- nothing annoying

- reasonably nice balance of smoothness & detail

- FA just sounds sexiest in this one!

 

Z:

- close to Y

- slightly flatter and less detail

- greyer sounding

- a bit boring

 

On further listening on both my main and office systems, X is clearly the odd one out - it sounds like your 24/48 upsampled files. So I now suspect this is the 8th gen, and not Z as I stated earlier. But it really doesn't matter.

 

Yes, all three sound different here, with Y and Z sounding the closest, and X sounding clearly different. Why this should be is anyone's guess. And so what if I'm totally wrong? It's not how we listen to music, but it's fun and interesting nevertheless.

 

Mani.

Main: Okto dac8PRO -> 8x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima speakers + subs
Office: MOTU UltraLite-mk5 -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Impulse H2 speakers
Vinyl: Thöress Phono Enhancer -> RME ADI-2 Pro

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For some strange reason, audiophiles are not keen to vote in polls that would put their listening skills to the test. Same reason they hate DBT. :)

 

I thought A sounded nicer than B and C. I can't distinguish B and C so I voted A as the highest jitter. PC over cheap earphones. I am not really picky so I can live with any of them.

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For some strange reason, audiophiles are not keen to vote in polls that would put their listening skills to the test. Same reason they hate DBT.

 

Rubbish

Not everybody is familiar with the music that is presented, and quite often the material may be already degraded before it even gets uploaded. Quite often you are asked to vote on different levels of mediocrity.

BTW, I DID participate in Mani's test in the Schiit thread, but how could I possibly consider myself an Audiophile, when I am 77 years of age with industrial type hearing damage from 44 years in Telecommunications ?

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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When will the 8th Generation file be revealed ?

 

I voted in the poll, am curious if I got it right (or maybe I did not :))

 

thanks

This poll was set to run for ten days. However with the small number of votes I can pm you the answer later today.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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All it takes for the 2 supposedly identical files to sound a little different, is one uploaded with no background activity going on, and the other with say a security scan being performed at the time of the upload. The same can happen at the time of saving or copying the files originally, or one being saved/played with a Broadband Modem connected, and the other with the connection to the modem unplugged.

TBH, I don't give a damn whether you accept this or not !

 

Here we go again...

 

I can confirm that two of the files are identical, albeit with a small offset so they have different checksums.

 

Even knowing which file is the copy, it's surprisingly hard to distinguish them.

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With all due respect mansr, this is a listening test and not an Audacity or Hashcalc test. Yeah, I'm sure it'd be very easy to find the 8th gen copy using these means. But what a total waste of time... and not in the least bit useful or clever.

 

Mani

Main: Okto dac8PRO -> 8x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima speakers + subs
Office: MOTU UltraLite-mk5 -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Impulse H2 speakers
Vinyl: Thöress Phono Enhancer -> RME ADI-2 Pro

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