Slightly premium DAC slugfest

[ted_b]

I am over the moon about the new Furutech Evolution II XLR's. They are quite special. So are Frank Tchang's ASI Liveline XLR's but are a bit more.

 

[cfmsp]

 

"Clay the 'annoyance region' I have never heard a GF called that before! regards Keith."

 

you trying to get me in trouble, pal?

 

Consider the 'annoyance' region any portion of the upper half of the spectrum in which anomalies are normally even more annoying to the GF than to oneself.

 

Fortunately, these are quite annoying to me as well, thus I don't need/want the false detail that so many audiophile products seem to have, which then drives the GF out of the room faster than a boring football (read soccer) match.

 

Let us know how you get on with your PS.

 

clay

 

 

 

 

 

[bdiament]

The other day, I took delivery of a battery powered supply for my ULN-8.

 

Much more listening to go as I've only had a preliminary listen so far. First thing I noticed was the noise floor did indeed drop away. (And I have no particular complaints about the stock supply.) Note, all my components are plugged into a power conditioner, fed by one of a few dedicated AC lines. One of the first things I noted with the conditioner was the drop in the noise floor. This unit makes it another, quite appreciable step quieter. (Again, I wouldn't call the sound with the stock supply noisy by any means.)

 

Like Clay with the supply he is using, I would not call the differences "night and day". But there is more to be heard in determining exactly what I *would* call them.

 

One thing that surprised me - and perhaps should not have - is the size and weight of the thing. I was expecting a "big brick" but this is more like a cinder block, except perhaps a bit heavier.

 

It connects to the 4-pin XLR port on the ULN-8, same as the stock supply and has an AC plug that can be (optionally) used as a ground path for the battery and for recharging the battery. My first auditions are with no connection to AC.

 

More when I've heard more.

(I would add that any time I compare the ULN-8 to something else, it is with the stock setup.)

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

[barrows]

I love the Nordost cables. I use the Frey series throughout my system, all balanced XLR cables for interconnects, and the Frey Speaker cables. The speaker cables made the biggest difference in my system. I have tried: Kimber, Cardas, and various PS Audio cables, and prototypes. The Kimber and Cardas I have used were all at the top of their lines, or near the top. Nordost cables sometimes have the reputation of being bright, or light in weight, But after living with them for a couple of years now, I think the Nordost cables are actually closer to neutral, and suspect that they are revealing problems in the system for those that think they are bright. I also conceptually believe in Nordost's design philosophy: low mass connectors, low loss dialectrics, thin conductors. I am off of the cable bandwagon since cabling up my system with Nordost Frey and am happy to stick with their cables.

Jonathan: agreed, I was just worried that you were looking for definitive comparisons, ultimately narrowing the field and then listening in one's own system is the way to go.

Barry: totally agreed that how it sounds in the end is, of course, what matters. I have certainly heard components that sound very good despite the use of high feedback opamps. The interesting thing is that I have been involved in listening tests where opamp output stages were replaced with discrete FET-bipolar stages and the sound was noticeably improved (and not just smoothed, but more low level detail revealed). Generally, I agree with you on the sound of say a Benchmark DAC, it is my experience that the character of the Benchmark is the sound I associate with opamp (IC) output stages. Considering this, I wonder how good something like the ULN2 would be keeping the same firewire interface and DAC section, and building a really good discrete all FET output stage for it.

Like many here I suppose, I would love to see MH make a playback specific 2 channel firewire DAC, optimized for the best sound possible.

Clay, you must be loving the new amp! I am a big fan of FETs and JFETS, and am very excited about the possibilities for power amp designs using the new power JFETs. Unfortunately, I need more power for my system, so the new J amp from Nelson is not an option.

 

[bdiament]

Hi barrows,

 

I'm with you on the Nordosts. I go through periodic cable comparisons (always allowing for burn-in of course) and to date have heard nothing I find more transparent than the Nordosts, regardless of the system they're placed in.

 

Among the others I've listened to are Transparent, Monster, Audioquest, Cardas, MIT, Kimber, Analysis Plus, Goertz, Harmonic Technology and maybe a dozen others so far. I also agree that the "brightness" associated by some with Nordost's cables is in fact a relative "dullness" in other cables, due to their inherent roll off and/or the Nordost's not being kind to brightness existing elsewhere in the signal chain.

 

To be clear regarding parts, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the designer of the ULN-8 changed some parts and the result was taking the performance up another step or two. What I meant to suggest is, my main concern is the totality of what I hear and use of a less than state-of-the-art part in a design that (to my ears) very easily and very handily outperforms other products that *do* use state-of-the-art parts, does not worry me. (In my experience, almost anything can be done better, given the freedom from time, space and price considerations.)

 

As to the Benchmark, what I hear, I don't necessarily associate with parts but I do associate with real-time sample rate conversion. The brightening and hardening engendered by the addition of spurious harmonics is something I hear with all real-time src and even with many off-line algorithms. There are only a tiny few in my experience that do not do this quite obviously - and only one (iZotope's) that doesn't appear to do it at all.

 

As to how good the ULN-2 or ULN-8 *could* be, the designer, B.J. Buchalter is one of the few folks I've met in audio who I would refer to as a genius. I would have no doubt the removal of real-estate and price constraints and the availability of the time (the man seems to work 30 hours a day) would result in something even more amazing that what he has already achieved. Alas, the company is small and he has plenty to keep him busy. (He is constantly working on aspects of the design with firmware and software upgrades. Note how purchasers of the 2882 and ULN-2 were not left behind, as the introduction of the 2D card provided a turbo boost to their capabilities.) We may just have to be satisfied with the excellence of his work as it stands. I for one, wouldn't have a problem with that.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

[barrows]

Yeah, I would agree with you on the SRC. The interesting thing is that the original PS Audio DL-III DAC which I have a lot of experience with, uses a ASRC to upsample and reclock the incoming data. This unit still sounds way better than the Benchmark products to me, and I have always expected the use of a fully discrete output stage with no IC opamps was mostly responsible for the better sound.

With the PS PerfectWave DAC, the ASRC can be bypassed, and the unit can be easily A/B tested with and without the upsampling engaged. This test was all I needed to know I wanted to avoid DACs that rely on ASRC.

Ultimately how something sounds, regardless of the design, and parts used is all that matters, but my background makes it interesting for me to speculate about what design topologies and parts will result in better performance.

 

[Thomas J]

Barry, what kind of battery are you using?

 

[DanRubin]

One of the problems in comparing DACs for computer audio is separating DAC performance from interface performance. With the Berkeley, you can't assess it against any of the MH or Weiss Firewire DACs or any of the USB DACs without factoring in the interface, and how would you do that? Which part of the chain is most important?

 

I will soon be getting a ULN-2 and a friend will get the Weiss DAC 2. I may also have short-term access to a ULN-8 and to a Weiss Vesta. We both use Bryston DACs normally and I have an Empirical Audio Offramp for USB interfacing and a Konnekt 8 for Firewire. Hopefully the comparison of all of these products will help me unravel some of the mystery.

 

[kana813]

If the OP is using Zu Essence speakers, I suggest including some form of EQ/room correction in his system. It will make a much bigger difference than a DAC.

 

Here's stereophile's measurements of the Zu Essence speakers:

 

http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/zu_essence_loudspeaker/index5.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bdiament]

Hi Thomas J,

 

I need to check with the designer first and see how he feels about my mentioning the source. I hope you understand. The offer to try this was a surprise and I want to respect the source.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

[bdiament]

Hi Dan,

 

In another thread (the one I started on the ULN-8) someone mentioned the test against the Berkeley as not being "scientific" because of the way the signals were fed to the two units.

 

While I agreed on a theoretical level, I did not on a practical one.

The fact is there is only one ULN-8 and one Weiss DAC2 and one fill-in-the-blank. Some will use Firewire to get a signal from the computer, others will require AES, some will offer choices, others won't.

 

My take on it is to use the device as I would use it in the real world, were it the one I chose to have in my system. Because in fact, we must use these devices as they are, making the most of each depending on the options it offers.

 

If you think about it, comparing *any* DAC involves different analog stages, different clocking and often different means of getting the signal in and out.

 

The thing, as I see it, is to play a good variety of well recorded sources, hopefully recordings you know well and see how you feel about what the device offers. Of course, knowing what you want from the device beforehand, can be helpful.

 

I mentioned well recorded sources but for some folks I've met, the interest is in less than well recorded sources. This can lead them to reach different conclusions than mine about the relative value of some DACS. For example, some, as I've mentioned, are somewhat "silky" sounding, lending a soft focus on the blemishes of many recordings. I can well understand folks wanting this in view of how most recordings are not, shall we say, exactly exemplars of the finest in the recording arts. On the other hand, for my ears, these DACs tend to hide a bit too much when given a better recording.

 

For those DACs that offer multiple ways of getting the signal in (or out), there are just more things (variables) to listen to.

 

Do have fun!

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

[Thomas J]

Hi, Barry, I'm only interested in the battery type ... NiCad, Li-Ion, SLA ... and needn't know the source, if that suits you. I'm keeping a running, informal survey of such info in my head.

 

I read one paper on battery noise. It supports the proposition that battery noise and internal resistance correlate, such that the lower the internal resistance, the lower the noise. The new battery on the block is called Lithium Iron Phosphate, which was developed for high-current power tools and hybrid automobiles. These batteries can deliver shockingly high current which to me suggests their internal resistance, and thus noise, are very low.

 

What's more, these high performers recharge something like 500-2000 times, and can be bought for a dollar on eBay for a single 3.7V cell. These latter can put out 12A of current! My god.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/18650-Lithium-Li-ion-Rechargeable-3-7V-2400mAh-Battery_W0QQitemZ130333407755QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1e5879fa0b

 

These little babies---$8 each, < $7 for bulk---can output max continuous 70A:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/40PCS-New-A123-26650-3-3V-2300mAh-Lithium-Iron-Battery_W0QQitemZ220497540485QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3356ad7585

 

Seventy amps! Their peak output current is 120!

 

[davidR]

Dan, do you have AES or SPDIF outputs on your Offramp, and also do you plan to interface it with each of the DACs for the shootout? Is that what you use to connect with your Bryston now?

 

[DanRubin]

The Offramp has both AES/EBU and coax S/PDIF (and I2S) outputs. With the ULN-2 and Weiss, I'll go direct via Firewire. The Offramp will only be used as a baseline comparison with the Bryston, since all other DUTs either accept Firewire and also perform DAC functions, or are Firewire to S/PDIF interfaces.

 

[bdiament]

Hi Thomas J,

 

I believe this one uses an SLA battery.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

 

[bordin]

My quest for the best CD transport for my system has turned out to be getting a ULN-2 instead.

 

It started when I borrowed my friend's C.E.C. TL2 CD transport. The TL2 made me realize in the significant impact of a good CD transport in the system. Surprisingly, I discovered a modded Linn CD player with an Audiocom's SuperClock and separate linear PSUs outperform the TL2, (as a CD trasnport) making CDs sound *very* musical and accurate. I wished to find one that sounds similar to the Linn unit.

 

People have reported pro's computer audio interfaces offer high quality S/PDIF transmission but it's hard to find one for testing. It happened that I came across information about the ULN-2 here and decided to get one. :-0 The ULN-2 comes with everything (all-in-one) I need for playing music, plus for recording. There is no need to find a separate transport device.

 

The sound from the ULN-2 is *very* similar to the Linn setup above. This makes me realize that I can just order prosciutto pizza rather than trying to find premium parma ham and super extravirgin olive oil, to combine them.

 

As Barry pointed out:

 

>If you think about it, comparing *any* DAC involves different analog stages,

>different clocking and often different means of getting the signal in and out.

 

I told my friends that you can just pick a decent all-in-one DAC and your life will be much simpler. However, it takes time to change people's beliefs. IMBO, the ULN-2 is a "catalyst" for me. :-)

 

[Telstar]

Hi Barry,

 

Will you evaluate the new Forssell DAC when it comes out? It would be really interesting to read a comparison with the MH ULNs.

 

[bdiament]

Hi Telstar,

 

I have no plans (or means of access) at this point.

If the opportunity arises, I'm always interested in listening.

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com