Ayre Acoustics QX-5 Twenty – The Digital Hub

[beetlemania]

3 hours ago, Charles Hansen said:

 

That is one of the disadvantages of USB - the computer needs to be near the listening system. On the other hand with Ethernet, you need 3 separate small computers to make it work. One is built into the Ethernet input, one is built into (say) a NAS drive, and the third is built into your smartphone or tablet or very tiny laptop near your listening postion. You can combine the storage and the control point into one computer, but then the main advantage over USB is that the computer can be further away from the DAC (but obviously still needs to be accessible from your listening position.

 

 

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If I were to use Ethernet, I would probably configure the system just I have it now for USB (single PC). The difference is that I would have the PC nearer to the listening position such that I wouldn't have to leave the couch. Having read your dialog with JA on AA, I'm confident that I could get great sound regardless of connection type. These QX-5 options are interesting - I might look into how I would connect via SPDIF. But I recently blew my upgrade budget on an AX-5 (sounds stupid good, btw ). Then, after my bank account recovers, I'll need to carefully consider whether to upgrade my speakers or DAC . . .

[d_elm]

30 minutes ago, beetlemania said:

If I were to use Ethernet, I would probably configure the system just I have it now for USB (single PC). The difference is that I would have the PC nearer to the listening position such that I wouldn't have to leave the couch. Having read your dialog with JA on AA, I'm confident that I could get great sound regardless of connection type. These QX-5 options are interesting - I might look into how I would connect via SPDIF. But I recently blew my upgrade budget on an AX-5 (sounds stupid good, btw ). Then, after my bank account recovers, I'll need to carefully consider whether to upgrade my speakers or DAC . . .

IMHO the best way to use USB into the QX-5 is with a renderer, such as microRendu, connected by a USPCB.  To generalize, use a network solution.

 

[Charles Hansen]

On 9/16/2017 at 0:56 PM, d_elm said:

IMHO the best way to use USB into the QX-5 is with a renderer, such as microRendu, connected by a USPCB.  To generalize, use a network solution.

 

Hello Mr. Elm,

 

Any particular reason to choose this route over simply purchasing the Ethernet module for the QX-5? I believe the overall cost would be roughly the same and you would have at least 1 less box in your system (2 fewer boxes if there is an outboard power supply for the renderer). The Ethernet module in the QX-5 is a Roon ready renderer. When introduced it suupported Tidal, Deezer, and Spotify Connect. Recently Qobuz was added. It is fairly easy to add support for almost any particular service, which Ayre does when there is sufficient demand.

 

Thanks,

Charles Hansen

[d_elm]

40 minutes ago, Charles Hansen said:

 

Hello Mr. Elm,

 

Any particular reason to choose this route over simply purchasing the Ethernet module for the QX-5? I believe the overall cost would be roughly the same and you would have at least 1 less box in your system (2 fewer boxes if there is an outboard power supply for the renderer). The Ethernet module in the QX-5 is a Roon ready renderer. When introduced it suupported Tidal, Deezer, and Spotify Connect. Recently Qobuz was added. It is fairly easy to add support for almost any particular service, which Ayre does when there is sufficient demand.

 

Thanks,

Charles Hansen

Hello Mr. Hansen,

    I have not heard a QX-5 as my Ayre dealer in Calgary does not have one.  This makes it difficult for me to make a decision but I am thinking about taking delivery of a QX-5 USB in early 2018 and the reasons for the USB rather than FULL or NET are as follows.

 

1) I have a microRendu (1.3) with LPS-1 and will soon upgrade to 1.4 board.  Again I do not have experience with QX-5 ethernet vs microrendu nor the renderer OS being used in the QX-5.

 

2) I suspect the renderers in a DAC box or external to the DAC will see constant tweaking and I am not sure which companies can best react to that so I prefer to spend less in that direction right now.  I know these things are pocket change for many and at the right time of year they are for me also, but not right now.

 

3)  Perhaps if Ayre had a Sonore solution in the QX-5 I would not be thinking about USB except this conflicts with #2.

 

PS  I only use DLNA with BubbleUPnP control app and MinimServer on a NAS.

[Audio]

On 8/21/2017 at 7:19 AM, Charles Hansen said:

Ayre will keep looking at the optical Ethernet and see how to migrate to that in the future.

Thanks,

Charles Hansen

 

 

Hi Charles,

 

Please consider LC fiber optic connection on multimode or better still, let us choose by allowing the user to pick their preferred SFP transceiver.  Thanks!

 

(Audio)

[Charles Hansen]

2 hours ago, d_elm said:

Hello Mr. Hansen,

    I have not heard a QX-5 as my Ayre dealer in Calgary does not have one.  This makes it difficult for me to make a decision but I am thinking about taking delivery of a QX-5 USB in early 2018 and the reasons for the USB rather than FULL or NET are as follows.

 

1) I have a microRendu (1.3) with LPS-1 and will soon upgrade to 1.4 board.  Again I do not have experience with QX-5 ethernet vs microrendu nor the renderer OS being used in the QX-5.

 

2) I suspect the renderers in a DAC box or external to the DAC will see constant tweaking and I am not sure which companies can best react to that so I prefer to spend less in that direction right now.  I know these things are pocket change for many and at the right time of year they are for me also, but not right now.

 

I've only seen one review that compared the micro-Rendu to the built-in Ethernet decoder, and I believe the reviewer preferred the sound of the built-in one - but I've no idea which version micro-Rendu that was nor what power supply was being used.

 

EDIT: I would recommend requesting that your dealer get one in to demonstrate. They typically respond to customer demand much more than the do to "badgering" from manufacturers. A dealer demo unit will typically be a "full monty" unit. Then you could bring your micro-Rendu in and compare for yourself. I've no idea of the resale or trade-in value of the micro-Rendu. Is it still in production? When it is discontinued the resale value typically drops sharply, which is one reason Ayre prefers to offer upgrades to our customers. It's not as if there have been huge advances in chassis or transformers (for example) in the past several decades.

 

59 minutes ago, Audio said:

 

Hi Charles,

 

Please consider LC fiber optic connection on multimode or better still, let us choose by allowing the user to pick their preferred SFP transceiver.  Thanks!

 

(Audio)

 

To both,

 

Ayre does not believe in the "upgrade of the month" model. When we have enough new features and/or performance improvements, we will typically introduce an update. This normally takes several years, both for the competition to catch up and for us to do the required R&D. The exception is firmware. The QX-5 was specifically designed to allow simple firmware updates by the customer. The Ethernet module firmware can be upgraded simply with the push of a button when connected to the internet. The main unit's firmware requires downloading to a thumb drive:

 

http://www.ayre.com/qx5_support.htm

 

I've at least two ideas for how to improve the Ethernet module with hardware changes, but it would require a significant investment in development resources, plus it's only been out for one year. Do you really want to be upgrading just one component in your system more often than once a year? Where else could you gain improvements for a similar amount of money? Many sonic improvements are either free or ridiculously cheap to implement. One good place to start is Jim Smith's book and CD/DVD called "Get Better Sound".

 

Hope this helps,

Charles Hansen

[Audio]

Dear Charles,

 

I do understand the Ayre policy as I have been an Ayre fan for a couple of years.  Do I expect Ayre to provide a optical fiber input on the QX-5?   No, because this would mean you  would need to drill a hole at the back.   

 

From my perspective, I am talking about the long awaited QX-R.  

 

(Audio)

[Dr Tone]

10 hours ago, Charles Hansen said:

I would recommend requesting that your dealer get one in to demonstrate. They typically respond to customer demand much more than the do to "badgering" from manufacturers. A dealer demo unit will typically be a "full monty" unit. Then you could bring your micro-Rendu in and compare for yourself.

 

Having a $12,000 CAD piece of kit laying around for demo isn't really an option for all dealers.  Calgary's economy is in a bad place right now with the state of the Oil industry.

[Charles Hansen]

10 hours ago, Audio said:

Dear Charles,

 

I do understand the Ayre policy as I have been an Ayre fan for a couple of years.  Do I expect Ayre to provide a optical fiber input on the QX-5?   No, because this would mean you  would need to drill a hole at the back.   

 

From my perspective, I am talking about the long awaited QX-R.  

 

(Audio)

 

Hi Audio,

 

We have done things that require drilling a hole in the back before. It just requires a jig that references other holes to put it in the right spot. Not ideal for overseas units, as then we have to make dozens of jigs and send dozens of inch sized drill bits. As far as a QX-R, it may happen someday (we don't like to announce product plans), but I wouldn't hold my breath. Lots of other things in the works to keep us busy for quite a while. I  do love pulling out all the stops, though!

 

Cheers,

Charles Hansen

[Charles Hansen]

1 hour ago, Dr Tone said:

Having a $12,000 CAD piece of kit laying around for demo isn't really an option for all dealers.  Calgary's economy is in a bad place right now with the state of the Oil industry.

 

Hello Dr.,

 

Yes, but I assume the dealer has some equipment on display. If they don't have a QX-5, its going to be very difficult to sell any and it's currently Ayre's best selling product. Even a penny-pinching dealer will order a unit if you are sure you want it but just want to hear it first. Of course, then he is still left without a demo unit to sell more. That is why virtually all manufacturers provide extra discounts and extended terms for demo units - to ease the  burden of expanding the inventory. If he sells just one unit he has already made a small profit, and every unit after that is count-on-able profit.

 

Hope that helps,

Charles Hansen

[Audio]

12 hours ago, Charles Hansen said:

 

Hi Audio,

 

We have done things that require drilling a hole in the back before. It just requires a jig that references other holes to put it in the right spot. Not ideal for overseas units, as then we have to make dozens of jigs and send dozens of inch sized drill bits. As far as a QX-R, it may happen someday (we don't like to announce product plans), but I wouldn't hold my breath. Lots of other things in the works to keep us busy for quite a while. I  do love pulling out all the stops, though!

 

Cheers,

Charles Hansen

 

Hi Charles,

 

Yes, I know.  I was asked to ship my MX-Rs back from Hong Kong to Singapore where they pass them over to you Boulder guys to drill a hole on the base plate (to accommodate a thermal device I think). But it was all worthwhile when I got them back as "Twenty"...OMG, the sound, man!!

 

You do what you have to for the QX-R, Charles, but we just letting you know that we are impatiently waiting for it.  By the way, any MQA implementation timeline for QX-5?  This is another thing we are all impatiently waiting for...    

 

(Audio)

[gdpr]

On 9/18/2017 at 6:55 AM, Charles Hansen said:

 

I've only seen one review that compared the micro-Rendu to the built-in Ethernet decoder, and I believe the reviewer preferred the sound of the built-in one - but I've no idea which version micro-Rendu that was nor what power supply was being used.

 

EDIT: I would recommend requesting that your dealer get one in to demonstrate. They typically respond to customer demand much more than the do to "badgering" from manufacturers. A dealer demo unit will typically be a "full monty" unit. Then you could bring your micro-Rendu in and compare for yourself. I've no idea of the resale or trade-in value of the micro-Rendu. Is it still in production? When it is discontinued the resale value typically drops sharply, which is one reason Ayre prefers to offer upgrades to our customers. It's not as if there have been huge advances in chassis or transformers (for example) in the past several decades.

 

 

To both,

 

Ayre does not believe in the "upgrade of the month" model. When we have enough new features and/or performance improvements, we will typically introduce an update. This normally takes several years, both for the competition to catch up and for us to do the required R&D. The exception is firmware. The QX-5 was specifically designed to allow simple firmware updates by the customer. The Ethernet module firmware can be upgraded simply with the push of a button when connected to the internet. The main unit's firmware requires downloading to a thumb drive:

 

http://www.ayre.com/qx5_support.htm

 

I've at least two ideas for how to improve the Ethernet module with hardware changes, but it would require a significant investment in development resources, plus it's only been out for one year. Do you really want to be upgrading just one component in your system more often than once a year? Where else could you gain improvements for a similar amount of money? Many sonic improvements are either free or ridiculously cheap to implement. One good place to start is Jim Smith's book and CD/DVD called "Get Better Sound".

 

Hope this helps,

Charles Hansen

 

Hi Charles

As in the Ayre newsletter, published in this thread, the QX-5 Twenty can now be ordered without the ethernet module and upgraded later.

As you have ideas/plans(?) to improve the ethernet module, would it be wise to order without ethernet for now and buy an 'ethernet' upgrade later?

Will that etherrnet upgrade be user (or dealer) installable?

 

Dirk

(happy owner of KX-R + MX-R Twenties)

[barrows]

Not Charles, but as the Ethernet input module on the QX-5 is on its own PCB, i would suspect that any Ethernet hardware upgrade could be installed by a dealer/distributor.

[austinpop]

14 hours ago, Audio said:

You do what you have to for the QX-R, Charles, but we just letting you know that we are impatiently waiting for it.  By the way, any MQA implementation timeline for QX-5?  This is another thing we are all impatiently waiting for...    

 

I look forward to @Charles Hansen's response on this.

 

As a current Codex owner, I would love my next (likely more expensive) DAC to be an Ayre. But - it is quite important to me for this DAC to have:

• Full MQA support,
• Native DSD support (not DoP), to allow at least DSD512,
• Ethernet input that supports the same PCM and DSD resolutions as the USB input,
• AES and I2S inputs, again supporting the same PCM and DSD resolutions as USB.

I understand why these are not straightforward fixes, but other companies are solving these issues, and I know Ayre has incredible talent at their disposal. It's only a matter of will and strategy.

[barrows]

15 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Full MQA support,

Are you willing to accept reduced performance with non-MQA files and higher price to support MQA?  That is probably what it will take.

I know Ayre is under a lot of customer demand to support MQA, it does worry me if this flawed format gains wide acceptance.

[Audio]

4 hours ago, barrows said:

Are you willing to accept reduced performance with non-MQA files and higher price to support MQA?  That is probably what it will take.

I know Ayre is under a lot of customer demand to support MQA, it does worry me if this flawed format gains wide acceptance.

 

I got a Lumin S1 sitting next to my Ayre QX-5.  MQA, "the flawed format", is coming in great on the Lumin S1. Why and how could QX-5 degrade it's performance in order to support MQA?  This I cannot understand because I would believe that the Ayre would have more CPU horsepower than the Lumin.

 

Maybe Charles could comment.

 

(Audio)

[barrows]

1 hour ago, Audio said:

Why and how could QX-5 degrade it's performance in order to support MQA

MQA is a flawed format, do some research on it.

 

Ayre goes to great effort to produce their own, proprietary digital filters, which add performance to their DACs.  MQA requires that one use a digital filter developed by the MQA folks.  Right now the Ayre DAC implements its own filters in an FPGA chip: it may be possible to add MQA filters without having to compromise the Ayre filters, it may not be.  This will depend on how much room is left in the FPGA for more filter algorithms.  If I were buying an Ayre DAC, I would be much more interested in using it as the designer intended, with the excellent and proprietary Ayre filters, and not paying an additional premium to add MQA.

 

MQA is lossy compression scheme, which basically delivers faux hi res audio with more artifacts than real hi res and good digital filters will provide.  As far as I can tell, to this point MQA is technically inferior to just using real hi res in the first place, I would call this a solution looking for a problem, we already can have real hi res without MQA.  What scares me most about MQA is that if it gains wide acceptance, it may replace real hi res files.  Please, before you just believe the hype, do a little research for yourself, and see what you think.  If you do listening tests, beware these can be tricky with MQA, if the MQA filter is on and you play non MQA files, you can have big problems.  The only fair comparison is MQA compared to the original real hi res with no compression.

 

 

[rickca]

9 minutes ago, barrows said:

Ayre goes to great effort to produce their own, proprietary digital filters, which add performance to their DACs.  MQA requires that one use a digital filter developed by the MQA folks.  Right now the Ayre DAC implements its own filters in an FPGA chip: it may be possible to add MQA filters without having to compromise the Ayre filters, it may not be.  This will depend on how much room is left in the FPGA for more filter algorithms.

This is exactly why I want to understand what Berkeley did to implement the MQA renderer in their Alpha DAC Reference Series 2.  I really hope @mansr can get the code and figure it out.  Still more puzzling to me is why Berkeley even bothered doing it.  Chris has said he wishes I could talk to Berkeley about this.  Clearly he has done that and gotten a surprisingly positive message.

[mansr]

6 hours ago, rickca said:

This is exactly why I want to understand what Berkeley did to implement the MQA renderer in their Alpha DAC Reference Series 2.  I really hope @mansr can get the code and figure it out.  Still more puzzling to me is why Berkeley even bothered doing it.  Chris has said he wishes I could talk to Berkeley about this.  Clearly he has done that and gotten a surprisingly positive message.

Getting the firmware is probably tricky. However, since this is just a "renderer" a pretty good picture can be had by measuring its output using some test signals. That of course means finding someone who has the DAC and some decent recording equipment, and is willing to do this.

[Audio]

I am sorry but I don't just avoid an audio format just because it is lossy or had negative write-outs on the internet.  End of the day, it is the sound that's matters.

 

I have been to MQA listening sessions in RMAF and in Munich Hi-End show and in all instances, MQA sounds fabulous.  I have never bothered about MQA though until jrecently, when Lumin announced full implementation in their DACs with just a mere firmware upgrade.  I got one sitting on the shelf so I updated the firmware and boom, I am playing MQA with no additional expenses.  Again the sound is fabulous and I want more.

 

Last night, thanks to your advice, I decided to do a little comparison between Hi -Res file and MQA.  I chose Linda Ronstadt "Blue Bayou" off the Simple Dreams album do the A-B testing.  

 

First track was bought from HD Tracks, this is a Hi-Res file 24 bits, 192K sampling.  

 

The other, was streamed from Tidal, Master at 24 bits 96K MQA.

 

Clearly, the 24/192 Hi -Res track sounded very good but the MQA track takes the cake in terms of dynamics and transparency.

 

Yes, I want MQA on the QX-5.  And Ayre will have the wisdom to determine the impact MQA has on their filters to decide if they really want to implement MQA.  We, Ayre fans, are confident that they will make the right decision.

 

(Audio)

 

[barrows]

3 hours ago, Audio said:

I have been to MQA listening sessions in RMAF and in Munich Hi-End show and in all instances, MQA sounds fabulous

Who put those on?  It is very, very easy to rig such tests.  Especially considering every test I have ever heard of being done is apples to oranges.

[barrows]

3 hours ago, Audio said:

Last night, thanks to your advice, I decided to do a little comparison between Hi -Res file and MQA.  I chose Linda Ronstadt "Blue Bayou" off the Simple Dreams album do the A-B testing.

So you compared using a Lumin?  What does that DAC use for its digital filters when not using MQA?  Consider...

 

To be a fair test this is what you need to do:

 

Get the original hi res file, has to be same mastering.  Now listen on a DAC with really good digital filters' very thing else the same, same source etc.

 

Then listen on the MQA DAC.

 

If you prefer MQA, then you like artifacts which are not part of the music, that is all there is to it.

 

MQA has no magic, and there is no magic ability to make lossy compression actually be better than real hi res.  MQA filters are better than the standard stuff in some DACs, but not better than good ones playing real hi res.

[d_elm]

Hello Mr. Hansen,

   I would like to ask a question about the standby mode of the QX-5 twenty, KX-5 twenty, and VX-5 twenty: what approximate time is required for the circuits to be ready for optimal playback after being taken out of standby mode.  The units are powered up 24/7 and in standby mode when not being used.

[Charles Hansen]

On 9/19/2017 at 6:42 AM, ddetaey said:

 

Hi Charles

As in the Ayre newsletter, published in this thread, the QX-5 Twenty can now be ordered without the ethernet module and upgraded later.

As you have ideas/plans(?) to improve the ethernet module, would it be wise to order without ethernet for now and buy an 'ethernet' upgrade later?

Will that etherrnet upgrade be user (or dealer) installable?

 

Dirk

(happy owner of KX-R + MX-R Twenties)

 

Hello Dirk,

 

As Barrows noted, it is a fairly simple procedure and almost any dealer/distributor should be able to handle it. In the old days, every dealer had a service department. Sadly those days are long gone. Most of this is no more difficult than setting up a turntable and installing a phono cartridge, but one also has to have the experience with electronics to avoid damaging the equipment and avoid death by electrocution.

 

The world seems to be getting "dumbed down", and there are fewer and fewer people with what used to be common skills. How many young people can drive a manual transmission car? How many can change a flat tire? How many can change the oil and filter? How many can change the sparkplugs? How many can clean and flush the coolant? How many can adjust the timing? When I was in high school, probably half of all the males could do all of the above, and certainly all of the "gear-heads". Today the answer is likely a much smaller percentage.

 

Same with audio equipment. My father grew up when half of the people who purchased Dynaco bought it in kit form and soldered it themselves to save 33% ($99 versus $149 for a Dynaco Stereo 70). Back then people could easily kill themselves with the 400 volt plate supply - but I don't think anyone ever did.

 

As far as plans to improve the module, we have none currently. I can confidently say that we would never offer any upgrade for at least two years after introducing a product, so even if we wanted to (which we have much more pressing matters than upgrading perhaps what is the best DAC on planet) it would be at least another year (if not two or more) away.

 

Hope this helps,

Charles Hansen

[Charles Hansen]

On 9/19/2017 at 2:40 PM, austinpop said:

 

I look forward to @Charles Hansen's response on this.

 

As a current Codex owner, I would love my next (likely more expensive) DAC to be an Ayre. But - it is quite important to me for this DAC to have:

• Full MQA support,
• Native DSD support (not DoP), to allow at least DSD512,
• Ethernet input that supports the same PCM and DSD resolutions as the USB input,
• AES and I2S inputs, again supporting the same PCM and DSD resolutions as USB.

I understand why these are not straightforward fixes, but other companies are solving these issues, and I know Ayre has incredible talent at their disposal. It's only a matter of will and strategy.

 

Hello AustinPop,

 

Thanks for the input. It is nice to get feedback from the customers. There is always the problem of "price, features, performance - pick any two". Ayre could offer all of the above with an increased price - then we would have to balance the number of increased sales from adding the features versus losing sales from the higher price. (We refuse to compromise performance.)

 

- MQA support - will address this in another post.

 

- Native DSD support has no standards. It requires ASIO drivers and installation. We've not even looked into it and have no idea what the costs would be. As far as I can tell the only advantage is the ability to go past DSD-256. I fail to understand what the need for that would be. How many titles are available at DSD-256? How many titles are available at DSD-512? If you want that feature to use "upsampling" from an external program like HQ Player, all you are doing is inserting an extra digital filter in the chain ahead of the digital filter built into the DAC. If you prefer the sound of this to the Ayre digital filter, then either we need to learn how to design better sounding digital filters, or you prefer to color your system to compensate for some deficiency elsewhere. I've no idea which is the case. If you would elaborate, that would be helpful.

 

- Ethernet support past 192kHz. Again, what is the need for this? The only content past 192kHz is solely from minor audiophile labels such as 2L. They offer zero music that I am interested in listening to. Is that what you are after? Or is it again some sort of external "upsampling" external digital filter? There is a very, very small case for DSD-128, as there are perhaps a few dozen titles recorded at that rate. The current processor on the ConversDigital module will not handle higher rates, so that will be at least a year or more away, as explained in a different post.

 

- I2S is silly in its current implementation as used by a handful of companies with HDMI cable. The clock should be in the DAC and not in the transport.I see little reason to introduce yet another proprietary interface that would only work with some possible future unannounced Ayre transport, and Ayre does not like to do things in sub-optimal ways just because the people who started doing this didn't think it through properly.

 

- AES/EBU (and all other S/PDIF variants) cannot transmit DSD except as DoP. That is one of the reasons I helped form a group to develop DoP. I know of no S/PDIF receivers that will go any faster than 192kHz, and Ayre already uses the very highest performing one on the market, so this will request will likely never be physically possible.

 

Thanks for letting us know what you are looking for. Again if you could elaborate your reasoning for wanting things (other than "specsmanship"), it would be very helpful.

 

Best,

Charles Hansen