Most Internet Forums and Comment Sections, In A Nutshell

[The Computer Audiophile]

 

 

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[esldude]

My initial thought is right on. On the other hand, journalism isn't the quality it once was, and it was never fantastic. Though it takes time and a bit more effort, the comments section on articles is often the only thing worthwhile. Now the articles only real purpose is to pick a topic that can get good worthy commentary.

[The Computer Audiophile]

My initial thought is right on. On the other hand, journalism isn't the quality it once was, and it was never fantastic. Though it takes time and a bit more effort, the comments section on articles is often the only thing worthwhile. Now the articles only real purpose is to pick a topic that can get good worthy commentary.

Very true.

[Jud]

There is actually a name for this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

[The Computer Audiophile]

There is actually a name for this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Too good:

 

The study was inspired by the case of McArthur Wheeler, a man who robbed two banks after covering his face with lemon juice in the mistaken belief that, because lemon juice is usable as invisible ink, it would prevent his face from being recorded on surveillance cameras.

 

Perhaps a relative of the cartoonist Shannon Wheeler :~)

[dapla]

Great topic, great cartoon, Chris.

 

I'm not surprised Jud knew of the Dunning-Kruger effect---knowledge of the pantheon of cognitive biases---"thinking habits" (cognitive behaviors; relevant to but not the same as "cognitive behavioral" theory/therapies)---has grown considerably.

 

I wear three hats when I visit here and other audio sites---audiophile/former professional (1st career); semi-retired mental health professional/teacher (2nd career); and senior moderator the last 12 years of a special interest internet community of about 80,000 registered members. Among its sub-forums is a very active open topic forum (politics/religion/social issues/entertainment/etc).

 

I joke about trademarking a phrase I coined long ago in the classroom and have used on "my" site about a dynamic I labeled "ignorance plus arrogance." The cartoon says it another way.

 

It features basic oppositional, obsessive/compulsive, and "passive-aggressive" characteristics that show up frequently in many in-thread squabbles.

 

In connection to the aforementioned characteristics, most of the more extended sturm und drang in some thread discussions is (of course) usually driven by "ego issues", or in more current lingo, self-identity "needs" <insecurities in myriad forms, denial/lack of awareness notwithstanding> that are usually further hampered by various social developmental factors relating to all forms of communication/interactions.

 

I always appreciate those who have the willingness to work on and practice competent self-awareness/self-assessment with an eye to minimizing the self-indulgent (basically "immature") and unproductive behaviors most of us share to varying degree.

 

I know I come up short (sometimes outstandingly so) often enough in such matters that understanding others doing the same becomes a little easier. Other times, not so much.

 

I encourage applying all sorts of humor to all things re: "arguing on the internet", and even when waxing at the peak of personal or professional eloquence in all one's glory, to not take oneself too seriously on almost any given matter.

 

Per CA, while I don't post much, there are such a number of exceptional contributors here that I really enjoy it the most out of all the well-known audio specialty sites, and I compliment Mr. Connaker on the achievement of developing and maintaining such a great website.

 

All the very special members of the industry and very skilled/experienced "amateurs"who post here are a wonderful (and often entertaining) source of valuable info, sometimes quite "colorfully" presented. It certainly "offsets" all the inevitable "other" stuff IMO, and we humans will always be human no matter where we go.

 

That went a bit long in these tl;dr days, but the good news is I don't post here much lol.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Thanks for the kind words and the well written comment.

 

I try hard not to take myself too seriously. Keeping in mind that we're not saving babies or killing puppies here at CA, always helps.

 

Aristotle was right when he said, "The more you know, the more you know you don't know."

[Richard Dale]

Too good:

 

The study was inspired by the case of McArthur Wheeler, a man who robbed two banks after covering his face with lemon juice in the mistaken belief that, because lemon juice is usable as invisible ink, it would prevent his face from being recorded on surveillance cameras.

 

Perhaps a relative of the cartoonist Shannon Wheeler :~)

 

I've read the Wikipedia link and I wonder if the Dunning-Kruger effect is a male only thing. They don't mention gender, but as far as I can see it is only men who seem to be interested in convincing the likes of Gordon Rankin that they really don't understand the basics of USB audio and that 'bits are bits'. We have at least a couple of female contributers on Computer Audiophile who have great social skills and can discuss tricky topics without wanting to ram their viewpoint down your throat as an exhibition of 'manliness' or something. I've never really understood why there aren't more female audiophiles.

[whoozwah]

There is also the element of ego at play here. It seems that the overwhelming majority of people have a point of view to defend. This produces the venomous bickering that so often pops up on the internet. The antidote for this is the disciplined reduction of self-importance/self-pity. Acceptable discourse between people happens when they don't feel superior or inferior to others.

[wgscott]

... as far as I can see it is only men who seem to be interested in convincing the likes of Gordon Rankin that they really don't understand the basics of USB audio and that 'bits are bits'.

 

It features basic oppositional, obsessive/compulsive, and "passive-aggressive" characteristics that show up frequently in many in-thread squabbles.

 

.

[mansr]

The problem with the internet is that so many people on it are wrong.

 

[Allan F]

"The problem with quotes on the internet is that it is difficult to verify their authenticity."

 

- Abraham Lincoln

[Ajax]

Hi Chris,

 

I would expect the majority of your experience of the Dunning Kruger effect is related to what you have read here at CA and other audio forums but believe me it's everywhere. I think you can apply overconfidence through ignorance to all aspects of life, not just internet forums.

 

I have experienced it first hand while assisting a group of young people with a technological start up, which involved the development of user specific software. Their level of arrogance, and ignorance of the very fundamentals of how a business should work, was staggering. Their initial assessment of my advice was "technology has changed everything" and "you don't understand social media" and "the world is different now" etc etc.

 

I ask them whether they thought the development of aeroplanes and motor cars would have been considered large technological developments and whether back in the 1920's people would be able to fathom that these two forms of transport would dominate world travel while at the same time foster so many bankrupt airlines and car manufactures.

 

I have spent 15 years running a small business and I tried, without much success, to explain that as long as you have expenses (software developers, office rent, whatever), and no matter what form they take, you need funds to pay for them. And no, those funds don't come from a never ending stream of investors (as that will just eat into your equity), they must at some stage come from income produced from the sale of the product (or service) so that you eventually break even and THEN you have a business. I encouraged them to fully understand their potential target market inside and out, and their customers needs, before they spent too much more on their software development. Cut a long story short they spent a fortune developing a very sophisticated product that was used for a year by one very large client who then decided not to renew. An absolute disaster as the product (software) was not "fit for THEIR purpose". They have now run out of money but their attitude is that they started with insufficient funds, which was over $1M (including tax incentives from the Aus govt to encourage innovation). They blame others for their situation and I doubt they have learnt very much from the experience.

 

Another example is my 32 year old nephew who asked if he could stay with me while renovating his house, which turns out to be a total rebuild except for the facade. It is the first time he has built something and when he moved in with me in July last year I asked him him how long he would be staying and he replied his house would be finished by Christmas. I have spent the majority of my working life in the construction industry, and when I learnt the scope of the works I suggested late Feb - March would be more realistic. No way, he said, you don't understand the level of detail the builder has gone into planning the work. Anyway the builder got sick and left a whole trade out of his quote and they now have a contractual dispute and he is still with me. The real issue for me is that he spent so much money on the renovation that his equity in the house before the renovation will be the same as after the renovation, however, he will have added $600k to his mortgage and put himself under immense financial stress.

 

I'm planning a renovation of my own house and have decided to live in it for a year first and have produced about 6 different concept plans, which I have costed, as I need to ensure my final plan matches both my needs and the markets (no. of bedrooms, bathrooms, access, car parking etc) and that I don't over capitalise. I showed my initial concept plans to my nephew and he immediately started advising me how much I should spend and how I should go about it. My nephew spent his first 5 years out of school running bars and travelling while I did a 4 year degree in engineering followed by a 2 year post grad in business administration followed by 30 years in constrcion. He simply doesn't value or have any appreciation of my knowledge and level of expertise and doesn't even know he has fu ....cked up. He has missed the point completely.

 

Where western society is stuffing up is with ridiculously low interest rates combined with the need for instant gratification. Young people in Australia who have not experienced a recession are hocking themselves to the hilt. They borrow easy money and create high risk situations instead of learning how to work smart to create wealth. We have moved away from the time honoured tradition of the elders teaching the children, who would learn slowly and thoroughly their trade, and in doing so learn to appreciate and respect the knowledge of their mentors. In summary, people without experience, i.e. real knowledge, do not appreciate it and never will. No one could tell my nephew not to borrow all that money, and what would happen happen to his repayments if interest rates doubled say. In Aus you can borrow for a house at 5%, in the early 90's I was paying 14%!

 

On a personal note I have recently been guilty of arrogance while while investing in the sharemarket. Because I had all this experience in small business I thought I could apply the same principles to investing in large businesses. However, I can't because when running my own business I had a large measure of control over my small market place, whereas the sharemarket has so many variables out of my control that affect prices, such as interest rates, macro economy, government policy, irrational market behaviour, etc etc.

 

Thanks for a great thread title and the opportunity to get that off my chest - sorry about the rant. At the end of the day:

 

"YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW AND YOU DON'T KNOW YOU DON'T KNOW"

[徐中銳]

"The problem with quotes on the internet is that it is difficult to verify their authenticity."

 

- Abraham Lincoln

 

I prefer this small settlement :

I could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams.

To quote myself quoting Poe :

« All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream. »

 

 

 

[Allan F]

"He who knows not and knows not that he knows not, he is a fool".

[徐中銳]

Yorick is as good as theirs.

"He who knows not and knows not that he knows not, he is a fool".

[Jud]

Ajax, some sage advice here you might recommend to your young friends, and it has the advantage of being entertaining, so you can say something like "This is amusing!" as the title of your email: Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up

[The Computer Audiophile]

Very interesting post Ajax. Thanks.

[AudioDoctor]

Ha, awesome cartoon.

[sdolezalek]

As applied to Internet forums - annoying but largely capable of being ignored

As applied to journalism generally - problematic and clearly not ignored by most readers and television watchers

As applied to Presidential elections in the US - God help us that we don't find out

[徐中銳]

I think some people who didn't like him ran him out of here unfortunately.

 

Just out of curiosity where did the Op go?

 

I won't try writing my thoughts tonight.

 

A song, years ago, found to cheer up a friend (yes, I like exploring popular covers) :

[video=youtube;wD-zz1hMkbQ]

 

Perhaps, tomorrow, I'll elaborate on this :

Hate-mongering ‽

 

Question: Can Wilhelm make a post that doesn't include a picture or a quote from someone else?

 

Sometimes' date=' like now, I quote to fix what I'm answering before the text changes—within that 30min grace.[/font']

 

And here's proof of a disgraceful bigot you and your type fester

[beautox]

I think this hit the nail on the head...

 

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/03/hammerforum-com/

[kumakuma]

I think this hit the nail on the head...

 

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/03/hammerforum-com/

 

Good one. Reminds me of many of the threads on this forum.

[christopher3393]

If you’ve seen The Big Short you might recall that the movie opens with a quote attributed (perhaps spuriously) to Mark Twain: “It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.” The book upon which the film is based opens with a quote from Leo Tolstoy: “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.”

[Allan F]

If you’ve seen The Big Short you might recall that the movie opens with a quote attributed (perhaps spuriously) to Mark Twain: “It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.” The book upon which the film is based opens with a quote from Leo Tolstoy: “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.”

A long way of saying that nothing penetrates a closed mind.