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I finally found an analogue medium that is unambiguously superior even to DSD!


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« HORCH HOUSE – REVIVING CLASSIC RECORDINGS THROUGH ‘SOFT REFURBISHING’, IN ANALOGUE AND DIGITAL by Andrew Everard

Premium-priced label undertakes transfers from the original masters to LP, hi-res digital files – and even reel-to-reel tape...

 

horch-house-munich151.jpg

 

LPs at less than half the price of the tapes, even though of course vinyl is one step removed from the master, thanks to the equalisation required for mastering to disc.

 

Right now, the digital files, selling for similar money, seemed of much more interest, being available in DSD64 (usually DFF, although some titles come as DSF files) as well as 96kHz/24bit and 192kHz/24bit WAVs.

 

However, as one used to downloading massive files from the likes of 2L and NativeDSD to feed my DSD addiction – the benefits of a 120Mbps internet connection! – I was surprised that the Horch House experience isn’t all about buying online and then watching the files zip to the computer.

 

horch-house-album.jpg?w=640

 

Instead, the company delivers its files on credit-card-sized USB storage, each one in its own fitted storage box, so having selected some titles I’d like to hear, it was a matter of sitting back and waiting for the padded envelope to drop through the letterbox.

 

On arrival I tried the files both with each album plugged into the front USB socket of my network player, and with the contents copied to my usual NAS drive and streamed over the network.

 

The titles I’d been sent, including a... »

 

 

Also, see bmoura's Horch House Launches Digital Music on USB Wafer thread

 

«

an accurate picture

Sono pessimista con l'intelligenza,

 

ma ottimista per la volontà.

severe loudspeaker alignment »

 

 

 

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Behold:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]25587[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]25588[/ATTACH]

 

My parents had a 8-Track back in the day. I listened to it once, was appalled at the lousy sound, and especially the unfortunate habit the damn thing had of switching tracks in the MIDDLE of a song! I went out and bought them a compact cassette deck and threw the eight-track and all the tapes in the rubbish bin. I replaced all their eight-track tapes (they only had 4 or 5) with cassettes of the same titles, and forbad them from buying technology, in the future, without first consulting me.

George

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« HORCH HOUSE – REVIVING CLASSIC RECORDINGS THROUGH ‘SOFT REFURBISHING’' date=' IN ANALOGUE AND DIGITAL[/url'] by Andrew Everard

Premium-priced label undertakes transfers from the original masters to LP, hi-res digital files – and even reel-to-reel tape...

 

horch-house-munich151.jpg

 

LPs at less than half the price of the tapes, even though of course vinyl is one step removed from the master, thanks to the equalisation required for mastering to disc.

 

Right now, the digital files, selling for similar money, seemed of much more interest, being available in DSD64 (usually DFF, although some titles come as DSF files) as well as 96kHz/24bit and 192kHz/24bit WAVs.

 

However, as one used to downloading massive files from the likes of 2L

and NativeDSD to feed my DSD addiction – the benefits of a 120Mbps internet connection! – I was surprised that the Horch House experience isn’t all about buying online and then watching the files zip to the computer.

 

horch-house-album.jpg?w=640

 

Instead, the company delivers its files on credit-card-sized USB storage, each one in its own fitted storage box, so having selected some titles I’d like to hear, it was a matter of sitting back and waiting for the padded envelope to drop through the letterbox.

 

On arrival I tried the files both with each album plugged into the front USB socket of my network player, and with the contents copied to my usual NAS drive and streamed over the network.

 

The titles I’d been sent, including a... »

 

 

Also, see bmoura's Horch House Launches Digital Music on USB Wafer thread

 

As to Horch-House’s R-to-R Master Tape copies, there are several companies doing this. I love music, and moreso, I love quality music (and by that I mean technically superior recordings). But $400 + for a single 10.5” reel of a single “album” is simply crazy. Not only will the reel-to-reel tapes self-erase with each subsequent playing, but unless stored tails-out in an ideal environment both temperature and humidity-wise, they will suffer print-through, oxide shedding, and deterioration of the mylar tape base material. No, in spite of the luddites protestations to the contrary, analog tape does not sound better than high-resolution digital, and certainly is not as permanent. Also, I have had, in my time, various audiophile and professional tape decks,(Ampex 350, Sony 850-2, Sony 880-2, Revox B77 MKII, Otari MX-5050, and Ampex ATR-100) and frankly, the sound of none of them is what I would consider “high-end audio”. The tapes sounded good because they were MASTERS of live performances, but I have copied vinyl records to 15 inch-per-second, half-track stereo on most all of the R-to-R recorders I have owned, and the copies were seriously degraded in SQ from the records I was copying! You'll get much closer to the sound of the original master digitally, than you ever will with a R-to-R copy sold through some vendor such as Horch-House.

George

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« HORCH HOUSE – REVIVING CLASSIC RECORDINGS THROUGH ‘SOFT REFURBISHING’' date=' IN ANALOGUE AND DIGITAL[/url'] by Andrew Everard

Premium-priced label undertakes transfers from the original masters to LP, hi-res digital files – and even reel-to-reel tape...

 

horch-house-munich151.jpg

 

LPs at less than half the price of the tapes, even though of course vinyl is one step removed from the master, thanks to the equalisation required for mastering to disc.

 

Right now, the digital files, selling for similar money, seemed of much more interest, being available in DSD64 (usually DFF, although some titles come as DSF files) as well as 96kHz/24bit and 192kHz/24bit WAVs.

 

However, as one used to downloading massive files from the likes of 2L

and NativeDSD to feed my DSD addiction – the benefits of a 120Mbps internet connection! – I was surprised that the Horch House experience isn’t all about buying online and then watching the files zip to the computer.

 

horch-house-album.jpg?w=640

 

Instead, the company delivers its files on credit-card-sized USB storage, each one in its own fitted storage box, so having selected some titles I’d like to hear, it was a matter of sitting back and waiting for the padded envelope to drop through the letterbox.

 

On arrival I tried the files both with each album plugged into the front USB socket of my network player, and with the contents copied to my usual NAS drive and streamed over the network.

 

The titles I’d been sent, including a... »

 

 

Also, see bmoura's Horch House Launches Digital Music on USB Wafer thread

 

Never mind. Duplicate Post

George

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Oooo- I have a box of old 8tracks. Got a bunch of ONJ, John Denver, and Paul Simon on that... One of these days, I will have to see if thy have survivrd the years since 1975...

 

Paul, they didn't even survive IN 1975! They were AWFUL and mercifully, short lived! Do you still have a player? My experience is that they weren't very reliable and wow-and-flutter crept-in very quickly after purchase.

George

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Behold:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]25587[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]25588[/ATTACH]

 

Ah 8 track-- as I recall there's no better way to make the girls wow and flutter:)

Custom room treatments for headphone users.

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Paul, they didn't even survive IN 1975! They were AWFUL and mercifully, short lived! Do you still have a player? My experience is that they weren't very reliable and wow-and-flutter crept-in very quickly after purchase.

 

Hey they are like anything. Quality matters. I ran across a studio closing down and for whatever reason they had a pro version of an 8 track player/recorder. Made by Teac. That baby made recordings of LP's better than store bought 8 tracks (okay so that is a low bar). As I had 8 tracks in my first three cars (and two of those were before cassette) it was a good deal for me. This unit also sounded much better playing pre-recorded 8 tracks.

 

And then I also had a Pansonic Quadrophonic 8 track. Used stereo tracks 1&3 or 2&4 for real 4 channel playback. Much better than those matrixed Quadrophonic LPs.

 

Of course I could never forgive them for the Jimi Hendrix 8 track Electric Ladyland where during one of Jimi's long jams, right in the middle, you hear clunk...................brrrrbrrrrbrrrrbrrrrr.................clunk and then the Jam continues. Oh my god, were they insane? Or was I?

 

Anyway, I still have one of my old cars (my second) and it still has an FM radio/8 track player under the dash. Nostalgia isn't for kids you know.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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Hey they are like anything. Quality matters. I ran across a studio closing down and for whatever reason they had a pro version of an 8 track player/recorder. Made by Teac. That baby made recordings of LP's better than store bought 8 tracks (okay so that is a low bar). As I had 8 tracks in my first three cars (and two of those were before cassette) it was a good deal for me. This unit also sounded much better playing pre-recorded 8 tracks.

 

And then I also had a Pansonic Quadrophonic 8 track. Used stereo tracks 1&3 or 2&4 for real 4 channel playback. Much better than those matrixed Quadrophonic LPs.

 

Of course I could never forgive them for the Jimi Hendrix 8 track Electric Ladyland where during one of Jimi's long jams, right in the middle, you hear clunk...................brrrrbrrrrbrrrrbrrrrr.................clunk and then the Jam continues. Oh my god, were they insane? Or was I?

 

Anyway, I still have one of my old cars (my second) and it still has an FM radio/8 track player under the dash. Nostalgia isn't for kids you know.

 

 

Yeah, there were attempts at high-quality eight-track players and recorder/players (like your TEAC) but again, as you say, the term "high-quality" is relative and with eight-track the bar wasn't set very high. I have to say that I found the fact that the damn things would switch tracks in the middle of a piece of music to be the most annoying aspect of the format (not so sure that I would mind Hendrix being interrupted, though :), but that's just me). Glad that eight-track was short lived. It deserved to die.

George

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Paul, they didn't even survive IN 1975! They were AWFUL and mercifully, short lived! Do you still have a player? My experience is that they weren't very reliable and wow-and-flutter crept-in very quickly after purchase.

 

Oh yeah- I actually do have an old Lloyds Stereo Systems with Full Range Speakers, AM/FM Radio, Turntable, and a sidecar 8 Track Tape unit. Now whether or not is still works when power is applied, who knows? I doubt the 8track will spin. :)

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Paul, they didn't even survive IN 1975! They were AWFUL and mercifully, short lived! Do you still have a player? My experience is that they weren't very reliable and wow-and-flutter crept-in very quickly after purchase.

 

George...we have gone from wow and flutter to jitter (that would be high tech "audiophile" wow and flutter!)....gee i am not so sure we are in fact progressing...or maybe we are just finding more ways to be hyper-critical of recordings instead of just sitting back and enjoying....although in truth the mechanical operation of those pinch rollers and capstans were a total PIA...

 

 

Of course I could never forgive them for the Jimi Hendrix 8 track Electric Ladyland where during one of Jimi's long jams, right in the middle, you hear clunk...................brrrrbrrrrbrrrrbrrrrr..... ............clunk and then the Jam continues. Oh my god, were they insane? Or was I?

 

Hahahahaha....whenever i was ready to listen to Jimbo...my level of consciousness was such that i assumed those noises emanating from the 8 track contraption were actually my brain shifting "gears" from one state of mind (or lack thereof) to another.. (there must be someway outta here said the joker to the thief..).bwhahahahaha....its a damn wonder i have any brain cells left...i must be a voodoo child....

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Paul, they didn't even survive IN 1975! They were AWFUL and mercifully, short lived! Do you still have a player? My experience is that they weren't very reliable and wow-and-flutter crept-in very quickly after purchase.

 

George...we have gone from wow and flutter to jitter (that would be high tech "audiophile" wow and flutter!)....gee i am not so sure we are in fact progressing...or maybe we are just finding more ways to be hyper-critical of recordings instead of just sitting back and enjoying....although in truth the mechanical operation of those pinch rollers and capstans were a total PIA...

 

 

Of course I could never forgive them for the Jimi Hendrix 8 track Electric Ladyland where during one of Jimi's long jams, right in the middle, you hear clunk...................brrrrbrrrrbrrrrbrrrrr..... ............clunk and then the Jam continues. Oh my god, were they insane? Or was I?

 

Hahahahaha....whenever i was ready to listen to Jimbo...my level of consciousness was such that i assumed those noises emanating from the 8 track contraption were actually my brain shifting "gears" from one state of mind (or lack thereof) to another.. (there must be someway outta here said the joker to the thief..).bwhahahahaha....its a damn wonder i have any brain cells left...i must be a voodoo child....

 

Wow and flutter render a recording totally unlistenable, jitter merely limits the "fi" to less than it could be. The difference between the two is like difference between being dead and merely ill.

George

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Always hated 8 tracks, even back in the day: 1) switched tracks in the middle of songs; 2) changed the running order of songs from the LP so they'd "fit" - essentially ruined any artistic intent that there might have been in the running order. 3) widely used in cars, even though their bulk made them quite impractical in a car.

 

When I was 14 my best friend had a portable 9 track stereo in his room (2 speakers, one on a longish cable so you could get separation) from "Lafayette" (remember them?) that he had modified to run his electrostatic headphones/head amp. Headphones were to keep his parents from shouting "turn it down!"

 

Think about that as a weird combination of junk and high end.... we thought the phones sounded great. Wonder what they would have sounded like with a good setup.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +_iFi  AC iPurifiers >Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Conditioning+Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Listening: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Matrix Element i Streamer/DAC (XLR)+Schiit Freya>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: RPi 3B+ running RoPieee to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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Wow and flutter render a recording totally unlistenable, jitter merely limits the "fi" to less than it could be. The difference between the two is like difference between being dead and merely ill.

 

 

George it depends on the degree of the wow and flutter whether or not it became unlistenable. Many of my tapes did in fact become that way and were thrown away. But not all. Remember the playing of albums suffer the same fate at times. Please be reminded that tens of millions of dollars are being spent in this country alone on "jitter" issues. Read forums across the net (here especially) and you will see that many consider "jitter" to be quite serious, apparently as serious as wow and flutter increases. Yes there are some who consider "jitter" so serious as to render the digital reproduction of their music unlistenable. This has to be true or else the industry that has grown from solving "jitter" problems would not be healthy and growing.

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....whenever i was ready to listen to Jimbo...my level of consciousness was such that i assumed those noises emanating from the 8 track contraption were actually my brain shifting "gears" from one state of mind (or lack thereof) to another.. (there must be someway outta here said the joker to the thief..).bwhahahahaha....its a damn wonder i have any brain cells left...i must be a voodoo child....[/color]

 

The very first time I had a joint was the first time I heard Hendrix and it was the Electric Ladyland Album.

 

It was 1970 and I was only a young boy (14) and was the classic surf grommet with blonde hair caked in salt and skin burnt by many hours exposed to the harsh Australian sun. I had just come in from a surf and was stuffed and lying on this guys couch and someone was passing around a joint. Didn't know what it was so I just took two great sucks and proceeded to flip out. I still remember to this day the rifts of all Along the Watch Tower and Rainy Day, Dream Away hanging somewhere just outside my consciousness. I don't advocate the use drugs, and haven't had a joint for years, but it was absolutely fantastic.

 

It was a surreal as it gets because up until then all I had listened to was the Beatles and the Rolling stones. I didn't know if it was the joint or Jimmy that blew me away - most probably both.

LOUNGE: Mac Mini - Audirvana - Devialet 200 - ATOHM GT1 Speakers

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BEACH : iPhone 6 - HRT iStreamer DAC - Akimate Micro + powered speakers

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Wow and flutter render a recording totally unlistenable, jitter merely limits the "fi" to less than it could be. The difference between the two is like difference between being dead and merely ill.

 

 

George it depends on the degree of the wow and flutter whether or not it became unlistenable. Many of my tapes did in fact become that way and were thrown away. But not all. Remember the playing of albums suffer the same fate at times. Please be reminded that tens of millions of dollars are being spent in this country alone on "jitter" issues. Read forums across the net (here especially) and you will see that many consider "jitter" to be quite serious, apparently as serious as wow and flutter increases. Yes there are some who consider "jitter" so serious as to render the digital reproduction of their music unlistenable. This has to be true or else the industry that has grown from solving "jitter" problems would not be healthy and growing.

 

 

Please, don't misunderstand me. I'm not belittling the importance of jitter, but I have never heard a digital recording where the jitter actually made the recording "unlistenable". On the other hand, I have a download from HDTracks, of Sir Eugene Goosens conducting the London Symphony Orchestra in Villa-Lobos' Little Train of the Caipira where the title piece has so much flutter that it can't be listened to. The flutter subsides as one gets into the album and by the time it gets to the Ginastera Panambi Suite the flutter is gone. I also have a vinyl record and the CD of The Jerry Goldsmith score for The Blue Max and every version of that soundtrack, from the original release, to the re-release on vinyl to the CD is marred by pretty bad flutter - so, it must be on the master.

 

I'm just saying that there flaws and there are flaws in reproduced music. It's a matter scale as to which ones are just annoying and which ones actually make the reproduction unlistenable. Then, of course, there is the tolerance factor of the listener. I had a friend (now deceased) who couldn't hear flutter until it got really bad (while I couldn't stand even very small amounts that are barely audible), but who couldn't stand any amount of audible THD or IM distortion. He'd tell me that certain recordings that I thought sounded good had large amounts of distortion in the lower treble region. I guess, I could hear it, but it didn't bother me and so I didn't notice it until it was pointed out to me.

George

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