SOtM smS-200 unveiled at Munich Hi-End

[Solstice380]

@tedwoods  Thank you Ted, I hadn't checked through Eunhasu.

 

@Confused  The NAA is only used by HQPlayer, so I don't think it has anything to do with the DNLA renderer.   When NAA 3.60 came out I think I remember Jussi saying it improved the IPv6 connectivity.  I have the Win version on my Win 10 NUC.

[Confused]

32 minutes ago, Solstice380 said:

@tedwoods  Thank you Ted, I hadn't checked through Eunhasu.

 

@Confused  The NAA is only used by HQPlayer, so I don't think it has anything to do with the DNLA renderer.   When NAA 3.60 came out I think I remember Jussi saying it improved the IPv6 connectivity.  I have the Win version on my Win 10 NUC.

Indeed, although to be clear, I was asking abut NAA 3.60 and the new DLNA version as two separate questions.

 

After posting my earlier question I did a bit of searching in the HQPlayer thread, and it looks like NAA 3.60 has changes for functionality only, with no difference to the actual streaming protocol.  
 

I still have no idea regarding the significance of the change to the DLNA protocol.

[PnL]

Hello! My installed new 4.7 dosnt have preinstall HQPlayer NAA. I cant install it from eunhasu - when I try, I see "Warning! Eunhasu server in maintenance". When I can install HQPlayer NAA?

[PnL]

Sorry, it was bug on my side - I use differents network cards on my PC - for internet and for output to SOTM.

[SYM]

Hi all, 

 

I know most people run the sotm streamer in Roon mode. 

Hope there're people running in Squeezelite mode here who can share their squeezelite settings.

 

The release notes for firmware v4.54 states the parameters for squeezelite as follows:

Valid setting value

• Buffer Time: 10 – 1000 
• Period Count: 4 – 256 
• Internal buffer: 1000 – 50000

The default values however are wayyyyyyyy lower:

• Buffer Time: 160 ( vs  10 – 1000)
• Period Count: 16 (vs 4 – 256)
• Internal buffer: 32768 (vs 1000 – 50000)

I have constant skipping when streaming from Tidal with the default settings. Have to bump up almost all settings (esp buffer time, period count) to around mid point to avoid tracks skipping. I am also cautious to deviate too much from the default settings as I don't know whether there'll be any adverse effect on the streamer in the long run (maybe stressing it too much?). 

 

Have anyone got any thoughts on squeezelite settings - or am I the only one who is facing problem with playback (esp Tidal)

Thanks

[Peter_T]

I am trying to use Qobuz with the MPD/DLNA section of my SMS-200 (v4.7). In it's config you can see :

 

I fill this out with my Qobuz user/pw and save it. Because Qobuz itself does not communicate directly with DLNA streamers I had to use the controller app Kazoo on my Ipad. There I can see the SMS-200 as "server" :

 

 

Going to Kazoo "rooms" or renderer page I see :

 

Nice : This might work, but if I click on Qobuz I get an error message :

 

 

Apparently the Qobuz login data stored in the SMS-200 are not reaching Qobuz.

 

Has anybody used this method with success? 

 

What does work is the control app MConnectHD (7 €) on my Ipad which has a special Qobuz login procedure. But it would be nice if I could use the SMS-200 DLNA directly, then the choice of control apps would be much broader.

[stefano_mbp]

2 hours ago, Peter_T said:

I am trying to use Qobuz with the MPD/DLNA section of my SMS-200 (v4.7). In it's config you can see :

 

I fill this out with my Qobuz user/pw and save it. Because Qobuz itself does not communicate directly with DLNA streamers I had to use the controller app Kazoo on my Ipad. There I can see the SMS-200 as "server" :

 

 

Going to Kazoo "rooms" or renderer page I see :

 

Nice : This might work, but if I click on Qobuz I get an error message :

 

 

Apparently the Qobuz login data stored in the SMS-200 are not reaching Qobuz.

 

Has anybody used this method with success? 

 

What does work is the control app MConnectHD (7 €) on my Ipad which has a special Qobuz login procedure. But it would be nice if I could use the SMS-200 DLNA directly, then the choice of control apps would be much broader.

I was facing your problem a couple of months ago

I contacted May, she is in the Marketing department of SOtM ([email protected]), and after more or less a week of suggestions and trials she gave me the solution to use MConnect to stream Qobuz to my SOtM sms 200. 
she also told me that “some day” the problem would have been addressed....

 

After some investigations about MPD and UPNP, I discovered that there is a problem in UPNP protocol due to OpenHome configuration

You can read yourself here https://www.lesbonscomptes.com/upmpdcli/upmpdcli-manual.html#UPMPDCLI-RENDERER-FORMATS in this chapter Accessing the streaming services with OpenHome from Kazoo

I suspect that this could be the real problem and the solution seems ... remote

 

I didn’t try another solution as my Qobuz trial period expired, you could install Bubbleupnp server on SOtM, you can find it in Eunhasu UI and configure it here the instructions to configure https://www.bubblesoftapps.com/bubbleupnpserver2/)

It works on top of MPD/UPNP and could give the access to Qobuz

 

Hope this can help you
 

[Peter_T]

28 minutes ago, stefano_mbp said:

I was facing your problem a couple of months ago

I contacted May, she is in the Marketing department of SOtM ([email protected]), and after more or less a week of suggestions and trials she gave me the solution to use MConnect to stream Qobuz to my SOtM sms 200. 
she also told me that “some day” the problem would have been addressed....

 

After some investigations about MPD and UPNP, I discovered that there is a problem in UPNP protocol due to OpenHome configuration

You can read yourself here https://www.lesbonscomptes.com/upmpdcli/upmpdcli-manual.html#UPMPDCLI-RENDERER-FORMATS in this chapter Accessing the streaming services with OpenHome from Kazoo

I suspect that this could be the real problem and the solution seems ... remote

 

I didn’t try another solution as my Qobuz trial period expired, you could install Bubbleupnp server on SOtM, you can find it in Eunhasu UI and configure it here the instructions to configure https://www.bubblesoftapps.com/bubbleupnpserver2/)

It works on top of MPD/UPNP and could give the access to Qobuz

 

Hope this can help you
 

 

Thank you for your answer,

 

I also notified May from SOtM, maybe she has an update? Anyway : BubbleUpNp did not solve this question. Mconnect maybe working but it has a huge omission : for classical music it does not list the tag "composer"  which is a persistent problem for us : the minority classical music listener.  If you are lucky the composer is a few clicks away, but not in Mconnect. So one day I probably would have to embrace Roon, which is still bit expensive for me.

[stefano_mbp]

14 minutes ago, Peter_T said:

 

Thank you for your answer,

 

I also notified May from SOtM, maybe she has an update? Anyway : BubbleUpNp did not solve this question. Mconnect maybe working but it has a huge omission : for classical music it does not list the tag "composer"  which is a persistent problem for us : the minority classical music listener.  If you are lucky the composer is a few clicks away, but not in Mconnect. So one day I probably would have to embrace Roon, which is still bit expensive for me.

You could try to use MinimServer, it is fantastic for classical music. It is very easy to install and very lightweight. In MConnect you could browse MinimServer folders, actually they are the tags ... give it a try. You can install it more or less everywhere (pc windows, Linux, nas, raspberry  ....) with the only prerequisite of java installed on the same server. It is very interesting his “Intelligent Browsing” capability... in few words you can browse starting from any tag and you’ll have all the others available ... you just need to have all your files full tagged.....

[stefano_mbp]

3 minutes ago, stefano_mbp said:

You could try to use MinimServer, it is fantastic for classical music. It is very easy to install and very lightweight. In MConnect you could browse MinimServer folders, actually they are the tags ... give it a try. You can install it more or less everywhere (pc windows, Linux, nas, raspberry  ....) with the only prerequisite of java installed on the same server. It is very interesting his “Intelligent Browsing” capability... in few words you can browse starting from any tag and you’ll have all the others available ... you just need to have all your files full tagged.....

Just to give you an idea ... I’m using LUMIN app and this is the first level of my library....

[audiobomber]

7 hours ago, SYM said:

The default values however are wayyyyyyyy lower:

• Buffer Time: 160 ( vs  10 – 1000)
• Period Count: 16 (vs 4 – 256)
• Internal buffer: 32768 (vs 1000 – 50000)

I can't help with your skipping issue, but I wanted to point out that the default vales all fall within the specified ranges:

160 is greater than 10 and less than 1000

16 is greater than 4 and less than 256

32768 is greater than 1000 and less than 50000

[stefano_mbp]

4 minutes ago, stefano_mbp said:

Just to give you an idea ... I’m using LUMIN app and this is the first level of my library....

... and this is the same view in MConnect (light version)

 

[mnuno10]

How did you listen to Tidal through Sotm 200 without using Roon? 

Right now I'm listening with Audirvana, because to my ears it sounds better than using BubbleUpnp. But I want to get ride of Mac(Audirvana). What are the other possibilities to listen to Tidal through Sotm(without Roon) and getting the best possible sound quality?

[Cebolla]

1 hour ago, stefano_mbp said:

  

4 hours ago, Peter_T said:

Apparently the Qobuz login data stored in the SMS-200 are not reaching Qobuz.

 

Has anybody used this method with success? 

 

After some investigations about MPD and UPNP, I discovered that there is a problem in UPNP protocol due to OpenHome configuration

 

Not exactly. The upmpdcli application, that smS-200 uses to provide its combined standard UPnP & OpenHome renderer and also its UPnP media server, is by default currently using a Qobuz API app_id that has been revoked by Qobuz. This would prevent both its OpenHome renderer (via the OHCredentials service) and its UPnP media server from accessing the Qobuz. See the 2019-10-06 entry in the News section on upmpdcli's main webpage:

https://www.lesbonscomptes.com/upmpdcli/#news

Quote

2019-10-06

Qobuz access was revoked: If you were using Qobuz and it's not working any more, don't pull your hair, the Qobuz plugin stopped working (either through the Media Server or with OHCredentials). Qobuz revoked the app_id, and also deleted the API documentation on Github. If you are a hardware integrator/manufacturer using upmpdcli to support Qobuz access (I know there are some), I made a modification to the Qobuz plugin so that the app_id/secret can be stored externally instead of being embedded in the source. This means that, if you can convince Qobuz to supply you with the appropriate pair, you can easily restore function, without having to support a modified module. Of course, this supposes that the API itself does not change.

 

 

The problem was first reported concerning its OpenHome renderer and there is an Open ticket about it in upmpdcli's problem reports & suggestions ticket tracker:

https://opensourceprojects.eu/p/upmpdcli/tickets/63/

 

There's also a very recent ticket by someone reporting having got around the problem for the UPnP media server, by using a personal key (thus using a different app_id) supplied by Qobuz:

.https://opensourceprojects.eu/p/upmpdcli/tickets/73/

[SYM]

20 minutes ago, mnuno10 said:

How did you listen to Tidal through Sotm 200 without using Roon? 

Right now I'm listening with Audirvana, because to my ears it sounds better than using BubbleUpnp. But I want to get ride of Mac(Audirvana). What are the other possibilities to listen to Tidal through Sotm(without Roon) and getting the best possible sound quality?

I do listen to Tidal with sms200 via lms/ squeezelite. You’ll need to run the logitech media server (lms) software though - although sms200 does have lms installed - I find it too slow. I run lms separately on a dedicated music server. Squeezelite (sms200 must be running in this mode) is the client software that interface with lms. Both squeezelite and lms is free. 
 

the offical instruction from sotm : http://docs.sotm-audio.com/doku.php?id=how_to_use_tidal_in_lms
 
The better mobile/ tablets apps can be obtained for a small fee. Am using ipeng (app) - its a few dollars if I remember correctly. A one time payment for the app. For Android orange squeeze seems quite popular
 

 

[stefano_mbp]

... interesting. Then the solution could be arriving earlier ..... 

I suppose this is why some developers like Volumio decided to open this solution only with a paid subscription....

[SYM]

28 minutes ago, audiobomber said:

I can't help with your skipping issue, but I wanted to point out that the default vales all fall within the specified ranges:

160 is greater than 10 and less than 1000

16 is greater than 4 and less than 256

32768 is greater than 1000 and less than 50000

Totally agree. 
the range of valid values are huge - was hoping that someone here figured out the optimal values already. Cheers!

[Cebolla]

1 hour ago, Peter_T said:

1 hour ago, stefano_mbp said:

I didn’t try another solution as my Qobuz trial period expired, you could install Bubbleupnp server on SOtM, you can find it in Eunhasu UI and configure it here the instructions to configure https://www.bubblesoftapps.com/bubbleupnpserver2/)

It works on top of MPD/UPNP and could give the access to Qobuz

Thank you for your answer,

 

I also notified May from SOtM, maybe she has an update? Anyway : BubbleUpNp did not solve this question.

 

The BubbleUPnP Server only provides a Qobuz accessing substitute OpenHome renderer for the upmpdcli's OpenHome renderer, so will not fix your upmpdcli's UPnP media server's Qobuz access problem.

[mnuno10]

39 minutes ago, SYM said:

I do listen to Tidal with sms200 via lms/ squeezelite. You’ll need to run the logitech media server (lms) software though - although sms200 does have lms installed - I find it too slow. I run lms separately on a dedicated music server. Squeezelite (sms200 must be running in this mode) is the client software that interface with lms. Both squeezelite and lms is free. 
 

the offical instruction from sotm : http://docs.sotm-audio.com/doku.php?id=how_to_use_tidal_in_lms
 
The better mobile/ tablets apps can be obtained for a small fee. Am using ipeng (app) - its a few dollars if I remember correctly. A one time payment for the app. For Android orange squeeze seems quite popular
 

 

 

Thank you for your input. 

I already tried squeezelite, but I also found the quality of stream to be inferior to using Audirvana.

[DaddyCool]

I listen to Qobuz with SMS-200 in MPD&DLNA mode. The setting for Qobuz in this mode is useless. In control app BubbleUPnP (Android) there is a setting for Qobuz (and Tidal). This works perfectly. You don't need necessarily use the mode LMS and Squeezlite although it is possible to listen to Qobuz and Tidal with the available plugins in LMS for Qobuz and Tidal.

My setup: MinimServer on a NAS, SMS-200 in MPD&DLNA mode, control app is BubbleUPnP. This app is fantastic for Qobuz.

[stefano_mbp]

@Peter_T & @Cebolla

 

just an update ...

 

I installed Bubbleupnpserver on a NUC/Ubuntu and defined my SOtM SMS 200 as an OpenHome render

then I selected it in LUMIN app and I could see Qobuz and Tidal icons in the raw where you can select Artists, Genres, Composers .....

I selected Qobuz icon and the login windows appeared and I filled it what my credentials

.... and it worked!

Now I can navigate and stream in Qobuz

 

.... just to let you know, maybe something has changed ....

[Peter_T]

45 minutes ago, stefano_mbp said:

@Peter_T & @Cebolla

 

just an update ...

 

I installed Bubbleupnpserver on a NUC/Ubuntu and defined my SOtM SMS 200 as an OpenHome render

then I selected it in LUMIN app and I could see Qobuz and Tidal icons in the raw where you can select Artists, Genres, Composers .....

I selected Qobuz icon and the login windows appeared and I filled it what my credentials

.... and it worked!

Now I can navigate and stream in Qobuz

 

.... just to let you know, maybe something has changed ....

Hi Stefano,

 

Thanks for your advice :

 

I was trying to see if the id/pw for Qobuz that one can enter into the settings of the SOTM200 DLNA section could work. It did not and still does not work even if you use BubbleUPNP openhome servers/renderer. What you show is that Lumiin has its own connection to Tidal and Qobuz, like some other control apps e.g. Mconnect. You use the SOTM here as openhome renderer only. But what I see is that the Lumiin app is better for Qobuz than the Mconnect app (Ipad). I emailed @May from SOTM about it and Qobuz. May confirmed that entering id/pw in the SOTM DLNA section does not work. She recommended Mconnect and Lumiin. But it might work in the future. @Cebolla is right : Qobuz stopped the beta version that used DLNA. But they said that they are still working on it. They have not abandoned it.

[stefano_mbp]

19 minutes ago, Peter_T said:

Hi Stefano,

 

Thanks for your advice :

 

I was trying to see if the id/pw for Qobuz that one can enter into the settings of the SOTM200 DLNA section could work. It did not and still does not work even if you use BubbleUPNP openhome servers/renderer. What you show is that Lumiin has its own connection to Tidal and Qobuz, like some other control apps e.g. Mconnect. You use the SOTM here as openhome renderer only. But what I see is that the Lumiin app is better for Qobuz than the Mconnect app (Ipad). I emailed @May from SOTM about it and Qobuz. May confirmed that entering id/pw in the SOTM DLNA section does not work. She recommended Mconnect and Lumiin. But it might work in the future. @Cebolla is right : Qobuz stopped the beta version that used DLNA. But they said that they are still working on it. They have not abandoned it.

... you are right ...

I have another renderer, moOde installed on a raspberry pi 4, and just configured it as an openhome renderer in Bubbleupnpserver and it works too

I didn’t realized that the connection to Qobuz was done by Lumïn app ....

anyway it seems better than mconnect and you can shutdown the app (Lumïn) and the streaming will not stop as happens with mconnect 

The conclusion seems to be that Bubbleupnpserver enables the streaming from Qobuz with any UPNP renderer and control points like Lumïn, Linn Kazoo .... 

and Lumïn has a wonderful interface ...

[franz159]

On 12/22/2019 at 12:54 PM, stefano_mbp said:

... you are right ...

I have another renderer, moOde installed on a raspberry pi 4, and just configured it as an openhome renderer in Bubbleupnpserver and it works too

I didn’t realized that the connection to Qobuz was done by Lumïn app ....

anyway it seems better than mconnect and you can shutdown the app (Lumïn) and the streaming will not stop as happens with mconnect 

The conclusion seems to be that Bubbleupnpserver enables the streaming from Qobuz with any UPNP renderer and control points like Lumïn, Linn Kazoo .... 

and Lumïn has a wonderful interface ...

I reverted to using BubbleUPnPserver since the issue with Qobuz API occurred.

AFAIK, this solution works exactly because both in Kazoo or LuminApp you have to select the "room" that you have setup in BubbleUPnPserver. In other words, the connection to the service is done by BubbòeUPnpServer and the app is only a controller. The Sotm (or the raspberry pi4 in stefano_mbp example) are acting as renderer.

 

[mnuno10]

Hi,

 

When I use Tidal from Bubble Upnp server in Sotm 200, it takes forever to Lumin or Bubble Upnp app to found the "Room" setuped in BubbleUPnPserver. Someone with the same problem?

 

Thanks in advance.