Questions For DAC engineers

[beerandmusic]

I have tried numerous dacs, and i do hear subtle differences. Usually in the form of bass. What is the reasoning behind one dac having tighter more pronounced bass (even if just subtle), in the digital to analog conversion?

 

My issue is that i will swear that audiogate software overall sounds better than any other media software i have heard....unfortunately it will only work on dsd material with Korg Dacs.

 

I want a better DAC, but i want the audiogate software. I have read that some people say these USB regeneators have better bass.

 

1. Is it possible that using a usb regenerator will improve the bass with the korg dac?

 

2. Or is there a way to make audiogate do dsd using a different dac driver than Korg's?

 

3. Or is there a way to take the output of the Korg to the input of another dac in a way that would make sense?

 

I have played dsd on hqplayer, audiogate, jriver, foobar, and the other dacs players (e.g. teac which is the same as many other manufacturers player, just packaged to look slightly different)...and audiogate wins every time. I may switch to the mac route, although i have shied away from mac for eternity, and not sure i want to go down that road now.

[YashN]

Have you tried DSD with HQ Player and its NAA?

 

If not, it looks like you can fork up for Korg setups and stay in this realm.

 

Otherwise, I think HQ Player offers a customer far more flexibility.

[beerandmusic]

Have you tried DSD with HQ Player and its NAA?

.

 

not sure what is naa, but yes, i have tried hqplayer.

[YashN]

not sure what is naa, but yes, i have tried hqplayer.

 

So that means you need to try HQ Player with an NAA, i.e. in client-server mode so that you can do more comparisons.

 

The NAA is a network-attached audio device, much smaller and simpler than the main server computer running HQ Player, and which runs Miska's networkaudiodaemon. These two devices are connected via Ethernet and the NAA itself is connected to your DAC via USB (usually).

[sandyk]

Usually in the form of bass. What is the reasoning behind one dac having tighter more pronounced bass (even if just subtle), in the digital to analog conversion?

Less noise masking low level high order harmonics may be at least part of the answer.

Check out the very fast rise time of the envelope in the attached jpeg.(Yim Hoh_Man-Poem of Chinese Drum)

DC coupling instead of AC coupling in a DAC, Preamp and Power Amplifier will also result in a better low end experience.

Click on the image for a larger image, then click on the new resulting image for a full size image.

 

[beerandmusic]

So that means you need to try HQ Player with an NAA, i.e. in client-server mode so that you can do more comparisons.

 

The NAA is a network-attached audio device, much smaller and simpler than the main server computer running HQ Player, and which runs Miska's networkaudiodaemon. These two devices are connected via Ethernet and the NAA itself is connected to your DAC via USB (usually).

 

ok, thanks for the info...but no thanks..i just want to play one program from the one media server...just looking for answers to first message in thread...i am sold on audiogate.

[beerandmusic]

Less noise masking low level high order harmonics may be at least part of the answer.

Check out the very fast rise time of the envelope in the attached jpeg.(Yim Hoh_Man-Poem of Chinese Drum)

DC coupling instead of AC coupling in a DAC, Preamp and Power Amplifier will also result in a better low end experience.

Click on the image for a larger image, then click on the new resulting image for a full size image.

 

 

wow, sounds greek to me...so is it possible the usb regen thing will improve bass?

that was really the only subtle difference i could tell between the korg and the ifi...the korg overall sounds MUCH better for dsd using audiogate, than anything else i have heard with exception to bass. I am thinking i can be content with a $150 korg/audiogate, and can ditch all the other stuff if i can get a little more tight musical bass, and save myself some money. I really wouldn't even mind having more money invested in the ifi or the teac if i could get them to work with audiogate....

 

It's like a losing battle for me....i can either have korg and audiogate or i can have a better dac and no audiogate....

 

the funny part is i don't even like audiogate's front end gui...but it truly sounds so much better.

[sandyk]

[so is it possible the usb regen thing will improve bass?/QUOTE]

 

Quite a few members have reported an improved low end when using a USB regen for USB Audio.

Try asking this question in the Uptone Forum area in C.A.

[Paul R]

Well, in English and with caveats, the reason one sounds different from the other usually has to do with the filter in the DAC, and how it affects the D2A reproduction. Same actual digital input, but when the filters finish futzing with it, it is a very different signal that is presented to the D2A convertor. Usually, it is very much up sampled, and that can easily have an effect on the bass.

 

Given that, if you really like the DSD sound, why not have JRiver / HQPlayer upsample everything to DSD and feed it to the Korg? It might be just the sound you are looking for.

 

Or you can also try things like up sampling to av very high rate PCM and feeding that directly to your DAC, essentially bypassing the built in filters.

 

And before everyone jumps o my head about this and that, yes, there are tradeoffs. But they are all things you really just need to listen to and decide if you like or not.

 

Please - don't rush into an expensive DAC! Take you time and enjoy the ride. Even if you wind up with a very expensive DAC, it may surprise you no end which one you decide upon.

 

You might also look into Peter St. PhasureDAC with XXHighEnd software.

[beerandmusic]

Well, in English and with caveats, the reason one sounds different from the other usually has to do with the filter in the DAC, and how it affects the D2A reproduction. Same actual digital input, but when the filters finish futzing with it, it is a very different signal that is presented to the D2A convertor. Usually, it is very much up sampled, and that can easily have an effect on the bass.

 

Given that, if you really like the DSD sound, why not have JRiver / HQPlayer upsample everything to DSD and feed it to the Korg? It might be just the sound you are looking for.

 

Or you can also try things like up sampling to av very high rate PCM and feeding that directly to your DAC, essentially bypassing the built in filters.

 

And before everyone jumps o my head about this and that, yes, there are tradeoffs. But they are all things you really just need to listen to and decide if you like or not.

 

Please - don't rush into an expensive DAC! Take you time and enjoy the ride. Even if you wind up with a very expensive DAC, it may surprise you no end which one you decide upon.

 

You might also look into Peter St. PhasureDAC with XXHighEnd software.

 

I don't like up-sampling...i like playing dsd native, but it sounds better on audiogate than jriver or the others.

but even PCM flac or wav files, the audiogate software seems to make it sound better, even without upsampling.

It sounds cleaner.

 

I will also add that i did try JPLAY and it sounded very clean too, on the same level as audiogate, but it was REALLY a weird interface.

[17629]

"I have tried numerous dacs, and i do hear subtle differences. Usually in the form of bass. What is the reasoning behind one dac having tighter more pronounced bass (even if just subtle), in the digital to analog conversion?"

 

2 main reasons. In the digital section of the dac, the main dac chip has a big effect on sound quality. And there's plenty of choices on the market for designers to pick from. Also, how the data stream is processed by the dac effects SQ. Different types of upsampling, non upsampling, multi bit, single bit... etc. These are all choices that will change the sound.

 

Now consider the analog section of the dac. It can have at least as much effect on SQ as the digital side, and sometimes more. If you take 2 of the exact same digital sections of a dac and give them do 2 different designers to make the analog section, The finish products may not sound anything alike. Its no different than how its done with other digital sources like CD. Take the same CD transport and plug it into 2 different dacs, and you end up with 2 different sounding sources.

 

"I don't like up-sampling...i like playing dsd native, but it sounds better on audiogate than jriver or the others.

but even PCM flac or wav files, the audiogate software seems to make it sound better, even without upsampling.

It sounds cleaner."

 

Always go with whatever sounds best to you, but as you gain more experience and exposure to other products, you'll probably find that the above is not always the case.

[sandyk]

Take the same CD transport and plug it into 2 different dacs, and you end up with 2 different sounding sources.

 

Conversely, take 2 different CD transports and plug them into the same DAC, and you end up with 2 different sounding sources.

Also, the power supplies to both the digital and analogue sections also govern how the DAC will sound.

[YashN]

ok, thanks for the info...but no thanks..i just want to play one program from the one media server...just looking for answers to first message in thread...i am sold on audiogate.

 

Well you're wrong about your approach to finding the best SQ, but go ahead and suit yourself and remain stuck in Korg-land.

[Paul R]

I don't like up-sampling...i like playing dsd native, but it sounds better on audiogate than jriver or the others.

but even PCM flac or wav files, the audiogate software seems to make it sound better, even without upsampling.

It sounds cleaner.

 

I will also add that i did try JPLAY and it sounded very clean too, on the same level as audiogate, but it was REALLY a weird interface.

 

It may be that what you have found is what you really like, and you know what? That's okay!

 

On the other hand, pretty much every DAC you listen to up samples the input. The DS-DAC-100 (Korg) for example, "up samples" (really, transcodes) everything to DSD. That may or may not be true on your specific model.

 

Really high rate PCM and DSD sound virtually identical to me, on a good DAC. Which doesn't have to be expensive, despite all the Audiophile Angst to the contrary. $500 is a good target for a DAC that gets one 95+% of the way to audiophile nirvana, IMNSHO of course.

 

Since you can pretty definitely tell the difference in software players on your DAC, either your DAC is very clean, you have really sensitive hearing, your DAC has interesting digital filters, or some combination of those and possibly other factors. (Yep - intentionally vague, covering all the bases there... )

 

My take would still be to first, transcode some of your favorite music offline to DSD and see if it sounds the way you want it to. Note that Transcoding is *not* the same thing as up sampling, however careless I might be with language. The DSD format is not PCM, and sample rate for DSD does not mean the same thing as for PCM.

 

If you don't hear anything unpleasant, then simply transcode all your PCM to DSD and Bob's your uncle. If you do, assuming you used Audiogate to do the transcoding, then it is probably time to start exploring other software players and transcoding software. As noted, HQPlayer gives you an enormous amount of control over the process, and is perhaps one of the better GOTO players for this kind of evaluation. But it is anything but easy to use.

 

And again, there is no real rush. This is a long process, especially given as audio is a hobby, not a full time occupation. At least for most of us. It takes as long as it takes.

 

-Paul

[17629]

Conversely, take 2 different CD transports and plug them into the same DAC, and you end up with 2 different sounding sources.

Also, the power supplies to both the digital and analogue sections also govern how the DAC will sound.

 

No question about it. I just thought my comparison was the better of the 2 because the OP was asking about dacs and not transports. I did a transport upgrade on one of my Wadia's and it made a big difference.

[beerandmusic]

It may be that what you have found is what you really like, and you know what? That's okay!

 

On the other hand, pretty much every DAC you listen to up samples the input. The DS-DAC-100 (Korg) for example, "up samples" (really, transcodes) everything to DSD. That may or may not be true on your specific model.

 

Really high rate PCM and DSD sound virtually identical to me, on a good DAC. Which doesn't have to be expensive, despite all the Audiophile Angst to the contrary. $500 is a good target for a DAC that gets one 95+% of the way to audiophile nirvana, IMNSHO of course.

 

Since you can pretty definitely tell the difference in software players on your DAC, either your DAC is very clean, you have really sensitive hearing, your DAC has interesting digital filters, or some combination of those and possibly other factors. (Yep - intentionally vague, covering all the bases there... )

 

My take would still be to first, transcode some of your favorite music offline to DSD and see if it sounds the way you want it to. Note that Transcoding is *not* the same thing as up sampling, however careless I might be with language. The DSD format is not PCM, and sample rate for DSD does not mean the same thing as for PCM.

 

If you don't hear anything unpleasant, then simply transcode all your PCM to DSD and Bob's your uncle. If you do, assuming you used Audiogate to do the transcoding, then it is probably time to start exploring other software players and transcoding software. As noted, HQPlayer gives you an enormous amount of control over the process, and is perhaps one of the better GOTO players for this kind of evaluation. But it is anything but easy to use.

 

And again, there is no real rush. This is a long process, especially given as audio is a hobby, not a full time occupation. At least for most of us. It takes as long as it takes.

 

-Paul

 

all my source files are dsf 256 or 512 already.

I am comparing different dacs and players playing the files without using dac upsampling.

 

And even if i play a simple flac file without upsampling, still sounds better through audiogate regardless of what dac i use.

[Paul R]

all my source files are dsf 256 or 512 already.

I am comparing different dacs and players playing the files without using dac upsampling.

 

And even if i play a simple flac file without upsampling, still sounds better through audiogate regardless of what dac i use.

 

Okay, then why are you looking for something else? I wouldn't.

[YashN]

all my source files are dsf 256 or 512 already.

I am comparing different dacs and players playing the files without using dac upsampling.

 

And even if i play a simple flac file without upsampling, still sounds better through audiogate regardless of what dac i use.

 

Why are you comparing DACs and software if for you the best already is Korg + Korg?