Böhm: Beethoven's 6th Sym, 24 bit 96 kHz

[AnotherSpin]

So why condemn Netrebko but choose to listen to that 'Hitlerian composer' Richard Strauss? And you feel sorry for Barenboim? Why, because he loves Wagner and Strauss? Or because of the guilt he suffered about his extra-marital affair while his wife was dying with MS? Wonderful musician though...

I am sorry for Barenboim because he was conducting the cycle with Netrebko who is completely unfit for this beautiful music, including her inability to sing on German, etc., etc.

 

Second, I didn't condemn anybody's believes. Did I?

[craighartley]

I am sorry for Barenboim because he was conducting the cycle with Netrebko who is completely unfit for this beautiful music, including her inability to sing on German, etc., etc.

 

Second, I didn't condemn anybody's believes. Did I?

 

Erm, yes you did. You were expressing disapproval of Netrebko and other artists for expressing support of Putin and terrorists.

[AnotherSpin]

Erm, yes you did. You were expressing disapproval of Netrebko and other artists for expressing support of Putin and terrorists.

Without any inclination for hair splitting - what was sounding disapprovingly in my words? I was merely pointing on some well published facts. What makes it "approving" or "disapproving" is only your fantasies. What I did tell is that I lost my interest to Netrebko many years before she affiliated herself with bandits.

[craighartley]

Without any inclination for hair splitting - what was sounding disapprovingly in my words? I was merely pointing on some well published facts. What makes it "approving" or "disapproving" is only your fantasies. What I did tell is that I lost my interest to Netrebko many years before she affiliated herself with bandits.

 

Your post no 14 in this thread. I doubt if I'm the only one who thinks it suggests disapproval of their beliefs and non-musical actions and links that to how their music making Is judged.

[CatManDo]

Is there a list of antisemitic composers or conductors? I want my CD collection in the living room to be politically correct. I keep the Wagner and R. Strauss stuff in the basement.

[craighartley]

Is there a list of antisemitic composers or conductors? I want my CD collection in the living room to be politically correct. I keep the Wagner and R. Strauss stuff in the basement.

 

My problem is what to do with the Anonymous composers. Do I give them the benefit of the doubt or fear the worst?

[AnotherSpin]

Your post no 14 in this thread. I doubt if I'm the only one who thinks it suggests disapproval of their beliefs and non-musical actions and links that to how their music making Is judged.

Ok, you ground your implications on doubts and suggestions.

Here are clarifications from my side:

- I do believe artists ideological or political views and their art would not be separated;

- I love Wagner, Strauss or Karajan (some recordings) art. Not so much Böhm, and it has no relation to his nazi sympathies;

- I believe Gergiev, Netrebko, Lisitsa are so-so artists (completely imho). They support of Putin/bandits is their personal problem, but it didn't make my personal apprehension of their artistry any better.

Feel free to ask you if need something else from me. Thank you.

[Hailey]

Wagner was a man of his time. Böhm, like any ardent Nazi, was a freak of his time. Therein may lie the difference.

[craighartley]

Wagner was a man of his time. Böhm, like any ardent Nazi, was a freak of his time. Therein may lie the difference.

 

Verdi was a man of Wagner's time too. Rather a difference.

[Hailey]

Verdi was a man of Wagner's time too. Rather a difference.

 

Yes. Same for Brahms.

[craighartley]

Ok, you ground your implications on doubts and suggestions.

Here are clarifications from my side:

- I do believe artists ideological or political views and their art would not be separated;

- I love Wagner, Strauss or Karajan (some recordings) art. Not so much Böhm, and it has no relation to his nazi sympathies;

- I believe Gergiev, Netrebko, Lisitsa are so-so artists (completely imho). They support of Putin/bandits is their personal problem, but it didn't make my personal apprehension of their artistry any better.

Feel free to ask you if need something else from me. Thank you.

 

Thank you, that's much clearer. Except that they are your implications; you may mean that they are my inferences. If you don't want to imply disapproval you might try avoiding pejorative words like 'bandits'. But I take your point that you didn't intend to link your musical likes and dislikes to other factors, and I apologise for my misapprehension. . I try to do the same myself, though with some musicians I find it more difficult. And I probably have an additional affection for the music of composers whom I admire as people.

[Musicophile]

Is there a list of antisemitic composers or conductors? I want my CD collection in the living room to be politically correct. I keep the Wagner and R. Strauss stuff in the basement.

 

Interesting question. I found this link on the net, you can even choose your favorite composer based on your political preference:

 

https://www.politicalcompass.org/composers

[AnotherSpin]

Is there a list of antisemitic composers or conductors? I want my CD collection in the living room to be politically correct. I keep the Wagner and R. Strauss stuff in the basement.

If I remember it right Liszt and Chopin were antisemitic, and some Russian composers such as Mussorgsky or Borodin too. Be sure you move some books to the basement as well – Seneca, Cicero, Dostoevsky, Twain, Shaw, Voltaire, T.S.Eliot, Celine, Ezra Pound. Be careful with Lars von Trier and Oliver Stone films, or those starring Mel Gibson. Avoid driving Ford. No Disney.

[bkinbk]

If I remember it right Liszt and Chopin were antisemitic, and some Russian composers such as Mussorgsky or Borodin too. Be sure you move some books to the basement as well – Seneca, Cicero, Dostoevsky, Twain, Shaw, Voltaire, T.S.Eliot, Celine, Ezra Pound. Be careful with Lars von Trier and Oliver Stone films, or those starring Mel Gibson. Avoid driving Ford. No Disney.

 

You're being flip and it's not cute. Each person has to determine whether or not they can enjoy the art of a man whose personal views they disagree with -- but to make a joke about someone's struggles with enjoying a Nazi sympathizer's art by saying "hey, there's so many Jew haters -- if we can't like them, who can we like?" is straight up ignorant.

 

Bohm supported and benefitted from a regime that committed genocide. Massive genocide. I suggest you have a think about that before making light of the issue.

[esldude]

I have the Mobile Fidelity double LP set and it still sounds fine after all these years. It was taped in 1966.

But Karajan´s Beethoven 9´s were better played and conducted and he had better soloists than Solti imho.

 

I have gone back and forth over that over the years. Sometimes I feel the Karajan is almost an over-the-top recording. Other times I think it is better. Certainly worth owning a copy of in any case.

[mocenigo]

Wagner was a man of his time. Böhm, like any ardent Nazi, was a freak of his time. Therein may lie the difference.

 

This is true, but Barenboim conducts Wagner and for me this is ok.

 

Böhm was probably not even an antisemite, but rather an opportunist that saw career opportunities in denouncing Jewish colleagues: he would have done the same with representatives of any ethnic/racial/religious group if he saw a personal advantage in doing that. A horrible person. This said, he was also a mediocre conductor, still ok at accompanying soloists (almost retreating in the background and this limiting damage) and with very good connections (that's why Pollini chose him for his Beethoven recordings, for instance).

 

Roberto

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[mocenigo]

Is there a list of antisemitic composers or conductors? I want my CD collection in the living room to be politically correct. I keep the Wagner and R. Strauss stuff in the basement.

 

Re: Richard Strauss, he was clearly not aligned with the racial policies of the Nazi regime, and tried to defend his collaboration with Jewish writer Stefan Zweig even in some almost naive sound letters to Goebbels - to the point that he even officially protested when Zweig's name was left out in the programme of a Dresden performance of the Schweigsame Frau.

 

In a sense, having Strauss in a music collection is honoring a man that, sometimes in naive ways, tried to oppose the racial policies of the regime, from within.

 

Just my two cents.

 

Roberto

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[craighartley]

You're being flip and it's not cute. Each person has to determine whether or not they can enjoy the art of a man whose personal views they disagree with -- but to make a joke about someone's struggles with enjoying a Nazi sympathizer's art by saying "hey, there's so many Jew haters -- if we can't like them, who can we like?" is straight up ignorant.

 

Bohm supported and benefitted from a regime that committed genocide. Massive genocide. I suggest you have a think about that before making light of the issue.

 

You are accusing AnotherSpin of saying appalling things that he didn't say. I suggest you think about that.

[AnotherSpin]

You're being flip and it's not cute. Each person has to determine whether or not they can enjoy the art of a man whose personal views they disagree with -- but to make a joke about someone's struggles with enjoying a Nazi sympathizer's art by saying "hey, there's so many Jew haters -- if we can't like them, who can we like?" is straight up ignorant.

 

Bohm supported and benefitted from a regime that committed genocide. Massive genocide. I suggest you have a think about that before making light of the issue.

 

I was not joking. I provided some answers to the question asked. You may too.

[AnotherSpin]

Yes. Same for Brahms.

At least same level alert, if not more serious, Brahms was well known cat hater, cat lovers beware! Unless, you will accept recent findings that accusation of Brahms killing cats came from Wagner.

[bkinbk]

You are accusing AnotherSpin of saying appalling things that he didn't say. I suggest you think about that.

 

And your interpretation of his comments are .... ?

[craighartley]

And your interpretation of his comments are .... ?

 

If you look back at his replies to my responses to his earlier posts, you will find that I'm not a reliable interpreter of them. But I do know he didn't say what you put into his mouth within quotation marks. I did take there to be an element of humour in his post but only because it was introduced in the posts to which he was responding: about keeping a Wagner and Strauss collection in the cellar, etc. I don't see that using humour in that way is disrespectful to those who suffered from the appalling acts and attitudes of the Nazi regime. That's my interpretation though, and if it offends you then of course it is useful if you point that out. But I wasn't criticising you for expressing offence.

[craighartley]

Re: Richard Strauss, he was clearly not aligned with the racial policies of the Nazi regime, and tried to defend his collaboration with Jewish writer Stefan Zweig even in some almost naive sound letters to Goebbels - to the point that he even officially protested when Zweig's name was left out in the programme of a Dresden performance of the Schweigsame Frau.

 

In a sense, having Strauss in a music collection is honoring a man that, sometimes in naive ways, tried to oppose the racial policies of the regime, from within.

 

Just my two cents.

 

Roberto

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

 

By quoting Thomas Mann, who called Strauss 'that Hitlerian composer' my point was it was an opinion out there. The often unknowable grey area of whether such accusations are true or might be disproved or confirmed by a newly discovered element of false interpretation of evidence or extenuating circumstance, is just one of the pitfalls and potential unfairness of judging music by politics (just think of Shostakovich). Admittedly it's probably better to judge composers by their politics rather than politicians by their musicianship. On the other hand, if people had been voting in 1997 on the basis of Tony Blair's guitar playing, Britain's record of foreign intervention might now look better.

[AnotherSpin]

If you look back at his replies to my responses to his earlier posts, you will find that I'm not a reliable interpreter of them. But I do know he didn't say what you put into his mouth within quotation marks. I did take there to be an element of humour in his post but only because it was introduced in the posts to which he was responding: about keeping a Wagner and Strauss collection in the cellar, etc. I don't see that using humour in that way is disrespectful to those who suffered from the appalling acts and attitudes of the Nazi regime. That's my interpretation though, and if it offends you then of course it is useful if you point that out. But I wasn't criticising you for expressing offence.

I appreciate your effort, thank you. Still I do believe our interpretation of something said or written by other person is exactly our interpretation given in accordance to our system of believes, our ability to understand, etc. To comment or interpret somebody is to comment or interpret ourself, nobody else.

[bkinbk]

I appreciate your effort, thank you. Still I do believe our interpretation of something said or written by other person is exactly our interpretation given in accordance to our system of believes, our ability to understand, etc. To comment or interpret somebody is to comment or interpret ourself, nobody else.

 

All we can do in life is interpret other peoples' words. If I called you or your loved ones a nasty name and you took offense, would I then be able to say, "well, you're just taking it the wrong way"? It's called communication. Words matter. If you feel misinterpreted, then straighten out your comment. It certainly appeared as though you were comparing the actions of a Nazi sympathizer to someone like Mark Twain, who, as he lived his life, became a great admirer of the Jewish people. By listing all the people who have held anti Jewish biases through the ages, you make light of the fact that separating artist from a truly evil doer/supporter can be an impossible task. Like I said, if I'm misinterpreting your words, then please, explain.