Hypex performance paper

[semente]

Can you give me an example of that? I'm not saying you are wrong, I'd just like to know how you come to that conclusion.

 

The BnW 800 series is a good example in speakers, with it's "tailored" response and serious shortcomings (mid-driver's cone resonance) for the price.

If you look at measurements by Stereophile and Soundstage you'll often see affordable equipment outperform (technically) high end stuff and yet this is hardly ever mentioned.

Shortcomings of the top end stuff are generally dismissed as unimportant or 'character'; it's all praise.

Besides there doesn't seem to be any kind of critical approach to the relationship between a certain topology's performance potential and it's price.

Anything goes...which in turn renders reviews worthless.

[ecwl]

Sure. Except Hypex amps actually measure really well to my eyes, according to what Stereophile publishes. To me the white paper from OP is basically saying our amps are so good, we are not going to measure every parameter. If you don't believe us, go measure it yourself. It's a bit arrogant but I don't think there's any deception or hyperbole there.

[Jud]

Based on some cursory internet reading, many are saying a THD rating through the 20-20 audio band of less than 3% is inaudible. Most of the amps I look at even in the "budget" audiphile category are much less than this, .1% or better usually. Class D amps tend to be even less (.01%, etc.), and have even better SNR than similar priced amps of A/B typologies. I am reading all this to mean that these amps are very quiet and add almost no distortion, and none that can actually be heard.

 

Anyone agree or disagree with my little summary - what am I missing?

 

As far as what you may be missing, you've looked at one distortion measurement. Criticisms of Class D amps have focused elsewhere than on these traditional measurements, see for example Why Class D Amplifiers May Test Well But Often Sound Terrible | EE Times and Class D amp distortion causes - diyAudio.

[Jud]

The BnW 800 series is a good example in speakers, with it's "tailored" response and serious shortcomings (mid-driver's cone resonance) for the price.

If you look at measurements by Stereophile and Soundstage you'll often see affordable equipment outperform (technically) high end stuff and yet this is hardly ever mentioned.

Shortcomings of the top end stuff are generally dismissed as unimportant or 'character'; it's all praise.

Besides there doesn't seem to be any kind of critical approach to the relationship between a certain topology's performance potential and it's price.

Anything goes...which in turn renders reviews worthless.

 

Ricardo, you're now being very general, and I think perhaps in the wrong direction. If you look at what Putzeys is saying specifically in his application note, he is in a way agreeing with something you just said, that a non-critical approach renders the judgment in a review worthless. Putzeys is pointing out that some traditional measurements are being uncritically accepted as indicative of amplifier performance, when in fact a critical engineering approach shows these measurements are relatively worthless. Unless you have some very specific information that Putzeys is incorrect in his engineering conclusions, I don't think you can use his application note as indicative of anything suspicious.

[jtwrace]

Here are some measurements by an independent who owns a dScope.

 

NC400 THD+N vs Power

 

NC400 FFT Plot

[tallica1]

New owner of Hypex Ncore and I can confirm 100 percent that the new Bel Canto Ref 600M amps are killer! N-Core Hypex technology. Wow.

[MikeJazz]

Just isn't true. Read recent reviews (last 2 years) of new Class D amps - at least the better ones - and you will find both professional and audiophile reviewers who say that they are as good as, and in some ways better than, many conventional amps, even costly ones. No one has yet said that the worlds best amp is a class D model, buy many experienced listeners have concluded that there are Class D amps that are as good as any conventional amp in their price range, and even - for some of them - that a multiple 5 figure dollar price is what is needed in order to better them with a conventional amp.

 

If we are limiting the comparison to conventional amps costing $20k and more, then maybe he's correct.

 

I recently had a humbling experience. I have a well regarded Class D, the Lyngdorf TDAI2200 and tested an analog integrated on my system. It was the ASR Emitter I Exclusive, one of recent production, about 2 years old.

 

It was a no brainer. They both excel at some parameters (both very quiet, dark backgrounds...).

 

But ASR is just better at some critical points, that were easily/objectively perceived:

- better control, better macro dynamics,

- easier following of intricate details,

- keep up the excellent transient response,

 

Also some parameters that one could regard to be more subjective or dependent on personal taste:

-more full bodied tonality, slightly warmer sounding (like it better).

 

One downside, it seemed more demanding for the sources. So I must improve my digital source first...

Other downside, takes longer to reach an optimum operating "temperature", about 1 hour at least.

 

Overall, the great learning, the ASR Emitter showed what the Quad ESL's can do...and showed the limitations of my class D amp. Would a ncore behave differently?

[ecwl]

I think your Lyngdorf class D is a fairly old design and you're really paying more for RoomPerfect than the preamp/amp. Whereas ASR is a more classic preamp/amp design. I don't think it's fair to compare nCore class D with Lyngdorf class D...

[wgscott]

see for example Why Class D Amplifiers May Test Well But Often Sound Terrible | EE Times

 

Things have progressed a wee bit since 2005, in fairness.

[skatbelt]

I recently had a humbling experience. I have a well regarded Class D, the Lyngdorf TDAI2200 and tested an analog integrated on my system. It was the ASR Emitter I Exclusive, one of recent production, about 2 years old.

 

It was a no brainer. They both excel at some parameters (both very quiet, dark backgrounds...).

 

But ASR is just better at some critical points, that were easily/objectively perceived:

- better control, better macro dynamics,

- easier following of intricate details,

- keep up the excellent transient response,

 

Also some parameters that one could regard to be more subjective or dependent on personal taste:

-more full bodied tonality, slightly warmer sounding (like it better).

 

One downside, it seemed more demanding for the sources. So I must improve my digital source first...

Other downside, takes longer to reach an optimum operating "temperature", about 1 hour at least.

 

Overall, the great learning, the ASR Emitter showed what the Quad ESL's can do...and showed the limitations of my class D amp. Would a ncore behave differently?

 

I did compare dual mono NC400 DIY builds to my Lyngdorf TDAI-2200 and found the differences to be very little. Both very neutral and clean. Question: did you ever experiment with the input sensitivity setting on the Lyngdorf. It is meant to correct for differences in input levels of various sources but actually it acts more like a controller to match amp and speaker load. I use +8.7 dB as an optimum for my (somewhat difficult to drive) loudspeakers. Result is a lot more control, grip and coherence. I got this tip at a dealership. They had worked with TACT products in the past which showed the same 'issues' at default factory settings.

[MikeJazz]

I did compare dual mono NC400 DIY builds to my Lyngdorf TDAI-2200 and found the differences to be very little. Both very neutral and clean. Question: did you ever experiment with the input sensitivity setting on the Lyngdorf. It is meant to correct for differences in input levels of various sources but actually it acts more like a controller to match amp and speaker load. I use +8.7 dB as an optimum for my (somewhat difficult to drive) loudspeakers. Result is a lot more control, grip and coherence. I got this tip at a dealership. They had worked with TACT products in the past which showed the same 'issues' at default factory settings.

 

Thanks for the tip...

I have used it when I tested the analog input, which I am currently not using...

 

In fact, when you attenuate too much you loose resolution and that is what I do not want.

On the TDAI I was told that bellow 65db on the volume control is where you loose.

Since at 65 it's already either loud (on "pop/rock" compressed music) or just fine (on quiter recordings) if I increase the input level, I will have to attenuate even more...I guess. But I will surely test it.

 

One o the main conclusions was that resolution with the ASR was superior, noticeably. I found details on a Dire Straits track I was never aware. The recessed vocals and talk on "Amused To Death" was no very clear.

It's true that the Lyngdorf sound is very neutral and clean.

 

But tonally also on the dry side and resolution could be improved. Which is nice to know because that means I have an option to keep the ESL, that I love (at times), to try to love them much more times...

 

So I guess I would not improve too much thinks with hypex, but since the quads are very transparent to changes, I will try to audition one pair...

[MikeJazz]

I think your Lyngdorf class D is a fairly old design and you're really paying more for RoomPerfect than the preamp/amp. Whereas ASR is a more classic preamp/amp design. I don't think it's fair to compare nCore class D with Lyngdorf class D...

 

I guess when I want to progress to a better solution, I must conduct "unfair" comparisons. "Fair" comparisons are good for reviewers...

 

Make no mistake, the TDAI is still a rare beast. It recently controlled Raidho's X1 and C1.1 very well (even if the X1 were so much more demanding)...so speakers very above their pay scale...

 

When driving "boxy" loudspeakers that naturally have a warm of their own due to their cabinet construction (even Raidho's have it) they are fine.

 

There is a new version of this machine, the TDAI 2170, but it retains the main sound characteristics, according to the re-seller here.

 

About RoomPerfect, I generally like it. But if we can optimize the room acoustics without it, it will be better, since RP produces a sound that is harmonically less rich, around the midband, even if it tightens the bass...

[firedog]

I recently had a humbling experience. I have a well regarded Class D, the Lyngdorf TDAI2200 and tested an analog integrated on my system. It was the ASR Emitter I Exclusive, one of recent production, about 2 years old.

 

It was a no brainer. They both excel at some parameters (both very quiet, dark backgrounds...).

 

But ASR is just better at some critical points, that were easily/objectively perceived:

- better control, better macro dynamics,

- easier following of intricate details,

- keep up the excellent transient response,

 

Also some parameters that one could regard to be more subjective or dependent on personal taste:

-more full bodied tonality, slightly warmer sounding (like it better).

 

One downside, it seemed more demanding for the sources. So I must improve my digital source first...

Other downside, takes longer to reach an optimum operating "temperature", about 1 hour at least.

 

Overall, the great learning, the ASR Emitter showed what the Quad ESL's can do...and showed the limitations of my class D amp. Would a ncore behave differently?

 

My point was that the better Class D designs sound as good or better than amps costing a lot more., not that there aren't any better amps on the market. You basically proved my point by saying with your speakers you preferred a $15000 amp. I don't know how the Lyngdorf sounds compared to the NCore. NCore monos cost about $2K, so if you are saying you need a $15 K amp to beat them, I think again, that proves my point.

[esldude]

My point was that the better Class D designs sound as good or better than amps costing a lot more., not that there aren't any better amps on the market. You basically proved my point by saying with your speakers you preferred a $15000 amp. I don't know how the Lyngdorf sounds compared to the NCore. NCore monos cost about $2K, so if you are saying you need a $15 K amp to beat them, I think again, that proves my point.

I agree with this. It is my opinion any conventional amp below $5k and maybe more like $10k is a dinosaur. Word just hasn't gotten out to everyone yet.

 

Some will no doubt remain as niche products like tube gear for their distinctive sound. Some extraordinary examples like the Benchmark amp may be competitive. Mostly class D offers too much performance very inexpensively not to become the norm.

[17629]

The BnW 800 series is a good example in speakers, with it's "tailored" response and serious shortcomings (mid-driver's cone resonance) for the price.

If you look at measurements by Stereophile and Soundstage you'll often see affordable equipment outperform (technically) high end stuff and yet this is hardly ever mentioned.

Shortcomings of the top end stuff are generally dismissed as unimportant or 'character'; it's all praise.

Besides there doesn't seem to be any kind of critical approach to the relationship between a certain topology's performance potential and it's price.

Anything goes...which in turn renders reviews worthless.

 

I'm not sure I get where you are going with that. Are we talking about listening to the speakers or looking at a spec sheet? If its the latter, we disagree. There's 2 things I don't do. The first is judge a component without actually putting my hands on it, and the second is not reading reviews. I've actually owned several pairs of 800 series speakers, and have no idea what you are talking about with regards to the mid drivers. If there's one aspect of B&W speakers that stands out, at least in my opinion, are their Kevlar drivers. Also, B&W makes no secret about the type of effort that goes into the fit and finish of their products. High end equipment is expensive overall, so if B&W spends more on the looks of their speakers, to me it makes sense. People don't want to bring ugly components into their nice homes any more than they want to buy an ugly car. So when you talk about price/performance, you're not looking at the product as a whole. Appearance is another factor to be considered. For some people, its important, and for others, not so much. The important thing for this discussion is, factor in the appearance of B&W speakers price, and it begins to make sense. Personally, if looks are not important, I agree with you in that you'll get more value, with other brands.

[semente]

I'm not sure I get where you are going with that. Are we talking about listening to the speakers or looking at a spec sheet? If its the latter, we disagree. There's 2 things I don't do. The first is judge a component without actually putting my hands on it, and the second is not reading reviews. I've actually owned several pairs of 800 series speakers, and have no idea what you are talking about with regards to the mid drivers. If there's one aspect of B&W speakers that stands out, at least in my opinion, are their Kevlar drivers. Also, B&W makes no secret about the type of effort that goes into the fit and finish of their products. High end equipment is expensive overall, so if B&W spends more on the looks of their speakers, to me it makes sense. People don't want to bring ugly components into their nice homes any more than they want to buy an ugly car. So when you talk about price/performance, you're not looking at the product as a whole. Appearance is another factor to be considered. For some people, its important, and for others, not so much. The important thing for this discussion is, factor in the appearance of B&W speakers price, and it begins to make sense. Personally, if looks are not important, I agree with you in that you'll get more value, with other brands.

 

I we will never agree then, for I ignore subjective reviews and only look at the measurements (which are not the same as a specs sheet).

And whilst I agree that the kevlar mids stand out, I think they do so for the wrong reason (a nasty-sounding breakup resonance).

I have owned a pair of 802s3s and have very extensive listening experience with the sealed box 801s.

I have also listened to the models of Ns, Ss, and Ds (I hope I'm getting the series right) which to my ears sound worse and according to the measurements I've seen perform worse in most parameters.

 

Looks and finish are not that important and because funds are limited I go for performance above all else.

 

R

[semente]

P.S.: I posted some info regarding cone resonance here

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f12-headphones-and-speakers/new-bowers-and-wilkins-800-series-25738/

[esldude]

Just from subjective listening I agree with semente. The various vaunted B&W units to me are nice except for this icky midrange color. I too have seen it attributed to cone breakup.

[17629]

My point was that the better Class D designs sound as good or better than amps costing a lot more., not that there aren't any better amps on the market. You basically proved my point by saying with your speakers you preferred a $15000 amp. I don't know how the Lyngdorf sounds compared to the NCore. NCore monos cost about $2K, so if you are saying you need a $15 K amp to beat them, I think again, that proves my point.

 

I'm not trying to make an argument, but I think you're setting a pretty low standard for proof. Anyone can say anything about anything. To start with, you need to define "sounds better than". It can be done, but you'll soon find that is a floating definition. Once you take care of the definition, your sample size should represent more than 2 amps. It would be almost impossible to test just 1 amp per brand, let alone all of them.

[esldude]

I'm not trying to make an argument, but I think you're setting a pretty low standard for proof. Anyone can say anything about anything. To start with, you need to define "sounds better than". It can be done, but you'll soon find that is a floating definition. Once you take care of the definition, your sample size should represent more than 2 amps. It would be almost impossible to test just 1 amp per brand, let alone all of them.

That problem was solved long ago by Julian Hirsch. Of all the amps I have heard this is one of them. Your standard review template.

[17629]

That problem was solved long ago by Julian Hirsch. Of all the amps I have heard this is one of them. Your standard review template.

 

 

The problem with Julian Hirsch was that he never "reviewed" a single component. If he did, maybe Stereo "Review" would still be in business.

 

I just looked up and saw that your post was from yesterday. You got me. It was a pretty good one too. If I didn't just happen to see the date, I might have fallen for it completely.

[Sam Lord]

I hope to euthanize this thread. The OP's question was whether Bruno's statements made sense. The answer is yes, let's move on. Hypex provides very detailed measurements for their UcD and nCore amps and those have been confirmed by others. IMD vs. power is the first and the THD spectrum is usually the second and last measurement I look for in an amp, and Hypex models are outstanding with those. Phase rotation (the only important slew-rate artifact) and the Class AB nasty of crossover notch distortion and THD at 20kHz will manifest themselves in IMD results. If one accepts the other results as consistent across the line of amps, what else do you need?

 

I expect one reason Bruno issued this is because some quants will jump on the slew rate measurement, it's got to be bizarre for Class D. The nCore has very complex, nonlinear feedback to eliminate the oscillator's ~400kHz signal from the output, I think 5 poles as opposed to 3 in UcD, dunno if the output inductor is counted as one of them. So volts/usec measurements are kinda silly. Bottom line is if an amp has great IMD measurements and very low and diminishing harmonic distortion as order increases, it's a great amp. Hey, I've got old 1st generation Icepower modules in my Bel Canto amps and they're pretty good. But look at the THD plots and watch the nCores utterly destroy them. If the nCores (which I *still* haven't assembled ) don't trounce the Bel Cantos, I'll eat both of my subs with power on.

[Jud]

I hope to euthanize this thread.... Hey, I've got old 1st generation Icepower modules in my Bel Canto amps and they're pretty good. But look at the THD plots and watch the nCores utterly destroy them. If the nCores (which I *still* haven't assembled ) don't trounce the Bel Cantos, I'll eat both of my subs with power on.

 

Rather than euthanizing the thread, when you've got them up and running, let us know how they sound.

[Sam Lord]

Deal! I was all set when the main chassis maker went under. But now Hypex sells chassis, though I'm going to change the non-ideal layout.

[17629]

Rather than euthanizing the thread, when you've got them up and running, let us know how they sound.

 

I agree. Talking and doing are 2 different things.