Guidance for a newbie in search of a DAC

[Nicholas.Bedworth]

Jonathan,

 

Take a look at the Bryston BDA-1. It has four (!) S/PDIF inputs, and two TOSLINK. This is pretty amazing. It's $2000 list. And it's an excellent product, with respect to the auidio quality when driven by the non-USB inputs. See TAS 194 for the full review.

 

Somehow the idea of an external S/PDIF switcher gives me the creeps; a lot could go wrong there, in addition to the cost of obtaining a really high quality unit that didn't introduce any problems.

 

[cfmsp]

Another feature of many pro audio devices is their multi-function capability, i.e. Swiss Army knife. Pro audio engineers don't necessarily want a lot of single trick ponies.

 

For example, with my ULN-2, I can connect via Firewire, AES, COax S/PDIF AND Toslink simulatenously, and route the sound to any of the outputs (analog out, and digitally -AES, Firewire, Coax).

 

I do this to connect my Apple TV (via TOslink), and my dedicated music server (via Firewire) to the ULN-2. I believe the Weiss might have similar capabilites, although perhaps not all, as it's a DAC, NOT a full-function DAC/ADC/with mic pres. Note: you might even find this flexibility in audiophile DACs, although I've yet to see many that accept as many different inputs as pro audio gear. The Apogee Mini-DAC (with USB option) is the only DAC I can recall off the top of my head that supports, Firewire, S/PDIF type inputs AND USB. This model may be discontinued.

 

This might help solve your switching needs, depending on whether you have multiple output options (as opposed to ONLY S/PDIF Coax) from your transports.

 

I find Toslink more than adequate for audio in support of video, but then I don't take that audio as seriously as some.

 

clay

 

 

 

[FranklinLG]

Nicholas,

 

Thanks for the input. I've tracked the Bryston down and have already read a few reviews. VERY interesting. I think I'm narrowing this down further. Certainly ecause I need a few inputs, I have to rule out the Ayre. So that leaves me with the Weiss, and now the Bryston.

 

Do you, or does anyone one, know of a comparrison review?

 

[cfmsp]

 

Franklin,

 

Chris has reviewed both here. The DAC2 review is listed as Weiss Minerva. My impression is that you will give up sound quality to gain the additional S/PDIF inputs.

 

The Weiss does not have the inputs of the Bryston.

 

Weiss DAC2:

# Inputs: Digital Audio inputs on Firewire (two connectors), XLR, RCA and Toslink.

# Outputs: Stereo analog output on XLR and RCA. Digital Audio output on Firewire, XLR and RCA.

 

best of luck with your decision,

clay

 

[FranklinLG]

Clay,

 

Let me ask you this, you wrote "My impression is that you will give up sound quality to gain the additional S/PDIF inputs". From your perspective, are you opining that the Weiss DAC2 is more - shall we say, muscial? IF so, I can live without the extra inputs. I'll just be more judicious in how I layout my system.

 

The balanced our are great, as my pre-amp has balanced ins.

 

[Nicholas.Bedworth]

The main thing is to go about this in a methodical, gradual fashion. It will take a couple of weeks before you figure out all the issues, balance everything out, and then get some samples from a cooperative dealer for review. Don't be in a rush, although it's hard not to get excited about having a new piece of great in your system.

 

Regardless of the product, we're talking about spending thousands of dollars here. An entirely different approach might be to start out with a competent, entry-level product (the $500 M-Audio FW 610) and over time, figure out that you don't like, what new features you need, sell it used and then make your move up. Do it in stages. The FW 610 has S/PDIF coax and TOSLINK inputs which you can often drive directly, even from a laptop!

 

For example, I'm using the Lavry DA-11 right now. It produces very good sound, the USB integration was really easy (leaving all the Window 7 room EQ feature intact; the FW 610 driver doesn't support them with its analog line out drivers, although I haven't checked what it does with S/PDIF). My guess is that the USB drivers may leave the room EQ features intact, but you'd have to check with each vendor to make sure.

 

Now, if room EQ in your Windows 7 source was really important to you, the FW might not be as suitable as another product. On the other hand, you might not care. So subtle issues like this start coming out as you get deeping into things.

 

The Bryston is apparently somewhat weak on the USB front, compared to the AR unit, and of course my bias is to go AES and avoid USB or FW entirely! Sounds like your application is primarily S/PDIF driven, so the Bryston is exceptionally strong in this area.

 

The various Weiss, Benchmark, etc. products have all been reviewed in great detail in TAS quite recently, so start with issue 194 and work forward.

 

My opinion is that the Berkeley DAC is the reference (at $5K), but once again, for your particular situation, the weighting of requirements might suggest another product.

 

So, you can see this will take a while, but then you'll be really satisfied with the expenditure, knowing that you made a good choice.

 

[FranklinLG]

Oh sure, great... puncture my balloon...

 

I actually have the Grant Fidelity DAC on order. Just waiting for them to deliver. I'll wet my appetite with it for now. Ultimately, though, I know me - I won't be satisfied... So my plan is to pull the trigger in December - a nice holiday gift.

 

Having said that, I'm just parsing things down here. Sure seems like the Weiss is the best choice, for the price.

 

BTW, does anyone know what DAC chips these products are using? Like the Weiss, Benchmark, or Bryston? I've read that the Sabre 32 chip was a very promissing new chip, and was curious.

 

And out of curiosity, how integral is using the Amarra software with the Weiss? Is their another Mac music player alternative?

 

[Alan B]

 

 

There is. You may want to read this thread.

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Audiofile-Engineering-Beta-Playback-Engine

 

[cfmsp]

I"ve not had the opportunity to listen to the DAC2, but from what I understand it's most significant flaw is that it sounds 'silky' - certainly sounds like 'musical' to me. I've heard this from Barry Diament, and others posting here.

 

Indeed the Minerva (aka DAC2) was compared favorably to the Alpha by Chris (altho he does prefer the Alpha, as his reference). Some have reported preferring the DAC2 outright over the Alpha. My understanding is that the Alpha wins out for those who are looking for the ultimate in soundstaging.

 

If your preamp/processor has a digital input, the Weiss can also pass through (or convert) a signal. But, as I recall, your goal is to eliminate it.

 

One final thought, in the spirit of creativity. AES/EBU signals are substantially the same as Coax S/PDIF, the biggest difference is the mechanical connection and related impedance difference (plus the noise reducing feature of AES/EBU). You MAY be able to rig up Coax to AES connectability, if all of your digital outputs are Coax and you need the additional input flexibility (for the DAC2), emphasis on the word 'MAY'.

 

cheers,

clay

 

 

 

 

[cfmsp]

 

"And out of curiosity, how integral is using the Amarra software with the Weiss?"

 

The Weiss DACS were one of the first to be 'approved' for use with Amarra, although there's no real integration between DAC and software, just an ability to function properly when passing the signal, e.g. auto change of sampling rates, etc.

 

clay

 

 

[Happy]

 

Yes the DA11 now has a USB input; the DA10 did not. The Lavry is much better than the Benchmark (I have both).

 

You are now at the mercy of the USB implementation - I have not tested the DA11 - but be warned that technically async inputs in the form of F/W, USB, Ethernet are far superior than sync inputs (they avoid the clock distribution problem) - actual implementations (and prices $150 to $1300) vary wildly!

 

/Paul

 

[vortecjr]

Clay, I cracked up when i saw your dinosaur comment....that's a classic! Then through out the day as I remembered the comment I laughed some more.....good stuff!

 

Eloise, congrats on your 1000+ posts. You say, "Using that as a term doesn't denigrate them in anyway - just points out that you require additional interface (and therefore expense) to use them with computer and doing value for money comparisons this needs taking into account." I understand and except your rational on the legacy comment. However, it does not appear to me that you though out the "therefore expense" part! I can easily think of a few setups with the card and the upgrade cable and an aes "legacy" dac where the cost of a cheap firewire and a firewire dac can be me more expense. That is without even considering the a-bomb/h-bomb amarra/amarra lite for the apples. I can also think of some examples where adding firewire is an extra expense. Yes the opposite is also true. My point is that it's not automatically more expensive it depends.

 

Bob, I really like and vote for SAFO

 

Franklinlg, it's all about perspective and its just a friendly debate. The moral of the story is trust, but verify. As Nicholas pointed out, "take your time". Most important though listen to music!

 

Regards

Jesus R

www.sonore.us

 

[cfmsp]

 

JR, glad you liked my dinosaur comment, although I cannot take credit for it. I first heard it used in the exact same context as I use it by a well known recording engineer, whose shall remain nameless, becuase, well, my memory doesn't recall with absolute certainly.

 

Here's what Eloise said:

"Using that as a term doesn't denigrate them in anyway - just points out that you require additional interface (and therefore expense) to use them with computer and doing value for money comparisons this needs taking into account."

 

I think her comment is 100% correct. The vast majority of consumer computers do not natively support AES/EBU or Coax S/PDIF. In order for anyone to use these inputs into what I call a 'legacy' DAC, they must add a 'soundcard' to their computer that provides the AES/EBU or Coax S/PDIF output.

 

The additional expense Eloise refers to is the cost of this added component. As you know, most audiophiles use a Lynx card for this, to the tune of $700 to $800, although there are cheaper models available, which Eloise often actually recommends to people.

 

Her second point is this - anyone doing a value for money comparison must add the cost of this soundcard (to provide the AES or Coax output) to the cost of the DAC to do a cost comparison against a Firewire or USB DAC which do not normally require a soundcard to interface properly with modern computers.

 

Her comments seem quite straightforward and fact-based to me.

 

Actually, she failed to mention that an apples-to-apples (sorry) comparison between the two should also consider the potential cost of an upgraded breakout cable (as some seem to use), and should definitely factor in the SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive AES/EBU cable used (as compared to Firewire cable) to carry the signal from Lynx card to DAC.

 

Some may already have the AES or Coax cable, and if so, I think it makes great sense to purchase a soundcard to extend the life of their existing DAC (assuming they enjoy the sound).

 

But anyone without a separate, high quality AES/EBU or Coax S/PDIF DAC to start with should do the math!

 

Add up the costs of the audiophile-approved 'de riguer' $700-800 Lynx card plus additional costs for an AES or Coax cable (and potentially upgraded breakout cable) - and pretty soon you're talking real money. For the highest quality sound, the Legacy DAC 'tax' will run from $1000 to $1250 or more, depending on cable expenditures. That additional expenditure allows the consumer to consider Firewire/USB DACs in another price class, for the same total outlay.

 

clay

 

 

 

 

 

[pwhinson]

Just FYI - my custom breakout cable from Redco cost me the whopping sum of $40. I surely expected more but that was it. Agree with the need to consider all the costs.

 

[rayhil]

In several places in this thread, there are references to some USB ports on Macs not functioning appropriately for audio and suggestions that this is well documented and that it's easy to find this info. Can someone please point me to this info as I can't seem to find it. thanks.

 

[cfmsp]

 

"my custom breakout cable from Redco cost me the whopping sum of $40. I surely expected more but that was it."

 

Thanks for this data point. Like you I was expecting that it would cost more. This is good, I can stop worrying about (whether to comment on) this detail.

 

clay

 

PS, I'm unexpectedly in the market for an AES/EBU cable. What do you use?

 

 

 

[Nicholas.Bedworth]

It's definitely in the threads, somewhere. Just Google or Bing "Mac USB not suitable for audio playback". Keep in mind that with a USB port extender, you can run out of USB ports really easily, especially if 1 or 2 of them can't be used for audio.

 

Apparently, this issue relates to specific pieces of external audio devices, so your mileage may vary. It's just something to be aware of as a "might be an issue" when you're allocating the ports.

 

[Happy]

I have several MACs - I use one for music creation (Logic Pro) - another for playing guitar (midi interface into USB using the guitar as a synth); another mac for office playback USB out. I have never seen a problem with USB ports. Beware though that they are allowed to operate in a multidrop scenario - meaning that you can force a 'effective denial of service' if you have a chatty USB device sharing the same port (firewire does not operate this way). i.e. you can do it wrong!

 

/Paul

 

[Nicholas.Bedworth]

The issues are with specific Mac Book Pro models. Even mentioning this causes violent reactions from fanboys, and thus I didn't go into the details which were covered in another post. No problem with regular Macs; probably something to do with battery drain on the MBPs; there's a reason they did it like that; they're not dumb.

 

Say, glad to see you have the alpha DAC, apparently driven AES. And the Avantegards are something else.

 

Got room for these? http://www.magico.net/?d=03_Products/06_Ultimate_II I think they're mid-figures, and then you need a private aircraft hanger and power station.

 

[vortecjr]

I really don't like to shoot numbers, but this is for clarification. Our least expensive cable and the pci card is just under 800 less tax/ship. Our most expensive cable and the pci-e card is just over 1020 less tax/ship. So to be clear 800/1020 not 1000/1250. That spread covers 450 bucks and now you can afford the amarra lite as the apple sound is not as good without it. So using your number of 1000 and adding 1000 to 1500 for a good legacy dac in that price range you now have very good AES and usb and firewire options all costing the same (give or take) as you noted. Its not, "quite straightforward and fact-based". IMO it leans like the the Tower of Pizza to just suggest more expense if not as simple....hahahah.

 

Now, if you need an AES cable (im scared to ask Y) consider yourself connected and shot me an e-mail with what you need.

 

Regards

Jesus R

www.sonore.us

 

[pwhinson]

Hi Clay -

 

I hope we're not dealing with misunderstanding re what I'm talking about. The ONLY AES/EBU cable I have a need for is the breakout cable which links the Lynx (no pun intended) to the Bryston, which outputs analog of course. As a complete and total aside - for the analog two channel output from the Bryston I've been comparing Nordost, Kimber KCAG, and JPS labs interconnect cables and I have stressed in other posts that cables play a huge difference here. For example since the Ayre sounds otherwise closed in to me (on the listen setting rather than the measure setting because no one ever even suggested I listen on the measure side because this is ALL about time coherence). Anyway, a good silver cable - something like the Kimber KCAG could do wonders fomr what I hear as a seriously closed in top on these Ayre piece. I wouldn't want the Ayre to be using any kind of filter that smears accuracy in the time domain. That is one of the SERIOUS things the high end dacs and filters are trying to eliminate.

 

[Audio_ELF]

Whatever the actual costs, there are additional costs for using a AES DAC input with a computer vs FireWire or USB.

 

In UK this is even greater as the Lynx (non-grey import) costs around £700.

 

My initial point is that if you are considering the Bryston at $2,000, you need to add $800 (or so) to the cost to use it to it's best. Therefore when considering FireWire devices, you should compare it to $2,800 DACs not $2000 if you are doing price comparisons. The intention is nothing more than that.

 

Of course, with Apple you need to take into account that with FireWire devices can use MacMini but for Lynx card you need a MacPro at considerably higher cost. Similar comparisons are not so relevant for PCs but pre-built "silent" PCs are generally quite expensie (at least in UK).

 

Just my thoughts

Eloise

 

[cfmsp]

"I hope we're not dealing with misunderstanding re what I'm talking about. The ONLY AES/EBU cable I have a need for is the breakout cable which links the Lynx (no pun intended)..."

 

I think we are, and I'd be the one doing the misunderstanding, if so.

 

It was my understanding that the breakout cable was used to provide various types of connections via the Lynx, but that it was NOT typically used to connect directly to the DAC, and further I had thought that a high quality AES cable would be used to bridge the gap between Lynx breakout cable and DAC, esp. given that many don't place their computer near their audio gear. Indeed, I had imagined that AES was recommended as the best interface (as opposed to Coax) due to need to better prevent noise over longer runs.

 

Is my understanding incorrect as regards a typical installation? Apparently, I was wrong with regard to your installation.

 

thanks for your clarification,

clay

 

 

 

[cfmsp]

 

"So to be clear 800/1020 not 1000/1250."

"So using your number of 1000 and adding 1000 to 1500 for a good legacy dac in that price range you now have very good AES and usb and firewire options all costing the same (give or take) as you noted. Its not, "quite straightforward and fact-based"."

 

JR, we can use your numbers.

Eloise's point, and mine, is that whatever that amount is, it is NOT required for a Firewire or USB implementation, so you have an additional expense (of approximately $800-1000) above and beyond the cost of the AES/EBU or Coax S/PDIF DAC when connecting it to most computers.

 

That's the part I refer to as straight-forward and fact-based.

 

as for AES, it's just a wild hair at this stage. I may want to try adapters & AES cables to connect the ULN-2 directly to my J2 via balanced inputs. I'll let you know if you an help. Someone else on the forum will is planning to test it out, I think.

 

thanks for the offer,

clay

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bdiament]

Hi Jonathan,

 

Well, there are a lot of suggestions here and you'll have a lot of listening to do.

 

Within the budget you mention, for my ears, the ULN-2 is the easy recommendation. Especially if you're Mac based already. It will never cease to amaze you with its flexibility (though there's no USB and personally, I wouldn't want it anyway) and drop your jaw with its sound quality.

 

In my experience, it can quite easily compete with DACs costing triple its price. And win. But that's just how I hear it.

 

***

Earlier in the thread, it was suggested the Berkeley is the soundstaging champ. Good as the Berkeley is, the ULN-8 shows where the former is lacking. But both would appear to exceed the budget anyway.

***

 

Just my perspective.

 

Have fun listening!

 

Best regards,

Barry

www.soundkeeperrecordings.com

www.barrydiamentaudio.com